orange hard cider?

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NineMilBill

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Alot of recipes use orange zest, and this one: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/orange-apple-cider-72512/ uses Orange Blossom Honey on top of that.

I don't know if there's any reason not to, but I am curious as to why I'm not showing any recipes for it.

My suggestion, regardless, is to modify this or a similiar recipe in a one gallon batch, and report your adventure on HBT. I'd be curious.
 

Daze

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when you say hard cider with oranges are you saying apple cider with orange, or are you after something that it just oranges, more like a citrus wine cooler??
 

truckjohn

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X2 Daze.... What are you trying to do? Ferment orange juice or make an Orangey Apple Cider?

Thanks
 

kurtism

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cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less fermented beverage made from apples

apple wine are the words for a a fermented beverage greater that ~8.5% ABV.

if you are not using apples...you really shouldn't call it cider.

i'm had orange mead (honey wine) and mandarin orange wine and both are excellent...just depends on the sugar content and acidity.

there is no reason you can't make a 6% or a 16% orange fermented beverage.
 

Daze

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cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less fermented beverage made from apples

apple wine are the words for a a fermented beverage greater that ~8.5% ABV.

if you are not using apples...you really shouldn't call it cider.

i'm had orange mead (honey wine) and mandarin orange wine and both are excellent...just depends on the sugar content and acidity.

there is no reason you can't make a 6% or a 16% orange fermented beverage.
thats exactly why I am trying to get another section added to the forum for things made with out apple in the stile of a cider, lower ABV possibly sweet and or carbonated. It is different than what one thinks of as "wine" but because of the lack of apples not cider I would call it:

winecoolers, hard soda, hard lemonade & more

That is why I was asking him exactly what he wanted to make and weather or not it had apples in it.

#tag#winecoolers, hard soda, hard lemonade & more
 

GinKings

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cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less fermented beverage made from apples

apple wine are the words for a a fermented beverage greater that ~8.5% ABV.
Everybody seems to have a different "definition" of cider and wine. Where does this "definition" come from?
 

Daze

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The early meaning if the word "cider" before apples got all mixed up in it was simply "strong drink" I have seen this debate so many times on this forum and it kind of seems silly, whats cider whats not. here is an interesting thread where I tried to define cider and got "corrected" https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/ev...t-talking-about-adding-7up-glass-wine-291272/ To make it simple I think we need to not try and make a strict definition but think of it as a perseption.

If I gave you a description "fruit crushed to extract the juice and fermented with the natural yeast found on the skin of the fruit" What comes to mind?? If you thought making wine from fresh grapes you would be correct, if you thought making hard apple cider you would also be correct. For all intents and purposes you have made the exact same thing only with two different fruits. Other than the obvious flavor differences between a grape and an apple there are two other main difference between these two creations. The first is ABV as the grapes have a much higher sugar content and can ferment out more alcohol, and the second is residual non fermentable sweetness that can (if using certain techniques and apples) be created in a cider. The result is two things that are perceived as totally different.

You could make a bunch different definitions for different categories but there would still probable be a bunch of crossover. The real key to "defining" a beverage is how it is perceived. If some one said to you "would you like some apple wine?" there is an image that comes to mind, dry, still, tart, smooth, and with a higher alcohol content than beer, or cider. Now with this picture in your mind of expecting a wine, and a carbonated cider was set in front of you would it fit the bill??? probably not because the perception is different. On the flip side if some one said to you "would you like some raspberry cider?" there is again an image that comes to mind, sweet, carbonated, tart, smooth, a lower alcohol content than that of wine AND a dominant apple flavor with a hint of raspberry. Now with this picture in your mind of expecting a cider, and a raspberry only wine cooler type drink was set in front of you would it fit the bill??? again probably not because the general perception of cider is apples.
 

NineMilBill

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+1

Reminds me of the "Brewer chooses which category his or her beer falls into" section during competitions. Crossovers, both with definition and taste, are fairly common.

Anyway, still curious if the OP wants to put orange slices in an apple cider or not. My advice is still the same....Just do it and tell us what happens...
 

kurtism

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Everybody seems to have a different "definition" of cider and wine. Where does this "definition" come from?
wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider

basically, hard cider is just a low ABV apple wine.

not trying to threadjack here but my loose definitions are
...fermented from fruit (no barely/grains) ---> wine (which includes mead, hard cider, hard lemonade, etc)
...fermented from grains (hopped or unhopped and regardless of fruit adjuncts) ---> beer
...distilled stuff ---> spirits

all other definitions are meaningless because ultimately these 3 are all encompassing, at least to me.

it seems that the OP wants to make a low ABV orange beverage that fits the cider style as daze said...so since there is no "word" for low ABV wine, why can't we just call it orange wine.

take for example my hard apple "cider". it doesn't fit the wikipedia definition of cider because I brew up a high ABV cider. it is apple wine, but i don't like that for my label so I still call it "cider"

most people say i didn't make cider because the last batch was 18.6% and that's fine but as i'm printing my label, i'll put what i please on it.

I am currently making pineapple wine. there is no difference between my apple beverage and pineapple beverage except the fruit...its essentially the same recipe, just a fruit difference. My point is...it doesn't matter what you really call it as long as people understand what's in it. if the OP isn't making a beverage with any apples in it, it might confuse someone because orange cider isn't a usual term.
 

GinKings

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cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less fermented beverage made from apples

apple wine are the words for a a fermented beverage greater that ~8.5% ABV.
wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider

basically, hard cider is just a low ABV apple wine.

not trying to threadjack here but my loose definitions are
...fermented from fruit (no barely/grains) ---> wine (which includes mead, hard cider, hard lemonade, etc)
...fermented from grains (hopped or unhopped and regardless of fruit adjuncts) ---> beer
...distilled stuff ---> spirits

all other definitions are meaningless because ultimately these 3 are all encompassing, at least to me.


take for example my hard apple "cider". it doesn't fit the wikipedia definition of cider because I brew up a high ABV cider. it is apple wine, but i don't like that for my label so I still call it "cider"

most people say i didn't make cider because the last batch was 18.6% and that's fine but as i'm printing my label, i'll put what i please on it.
Personally, I wouldn't trust wikipedia to define cider, but if you read it, they say that "Cider varies in alcohol content from 2% abv to 8.5% abv or more in traditional English ciders". www.bjcp.org , for example, lists cider styles up to 13%.

I asked the question about your "definition" because I don't believe there is a clear cut definition, yet everybody seem to have one. If you label your 18.6% apple beverage as cider, why would you make the blanket statement that "cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less"? I don't mean to give you a hard time. Just prior to reading your post, I read another stating that cider is 7% or less.
 

Daze

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I think the problems is strict definitions. Strictly speaking if I make a batch of rhubarb wine and then I carbonate it I do not have champaign even if I call it champaign, because it was not made in champaign France, BUT If I say I just made a batch of rhubarb champaign, every body knows what I am talking about. As was already said the bottom line is, all drinks made by letting yeast convert sugars into alcohol: beer, wine, cider it is all the same thing on a fundamental level. There are however some basic perceptions in categorizing that most would agree with and that will usually be more accurate than a strict definition because the problem with a strict definition is there will always be some overlap due to the common foundation all these beverages have.

Perceptions:

Grain = beer
Honey = meed
fruit -apples + higher ABV = wine
co2 + wine = champaign/sparkling wine
apples = cider

and maybe
fruit - apples + lower ABV + or - sweetenss + or - co2 = winecoolers, hard soda, hard lemonade & more but is ≠to wine


The whole reason I even brought any of this up is I still feel there is room for one more subsection on this forum for something like cider in perception (lower abv, sweet, carbonated.... refreshing) I have made half a dozen posts saying as much in the new forum request thread

What it really comes down to for me is what would you drink, sitting out on the porch on a hot afternoon after working in the yard?? A cold beer sounds nice, cold cider would be great, a cold *"winecooler" type beverage or hard lemonade would be fantastic, but a cold glass of wine or meed is not going to fit the bill. Wine is something savored, great with a meal or when relaxing after a hard day at the office. You don't take a big swig of wine to refresh your self. Because wine and cider are significantly different they are categorized differently on the form. So it stands to reason that something made with the same goals in mind with a cider and the only difference being the fruit used would also be separate from wine.

*I use the word winecooler loosely. Winecoolers in a store bought sense are not very good, but it is the only word I can come up with (since cider implies apples) that is even close to the kind of beverage I am talking about. Winecooler is used in the same way that champaign is used. You say the word and most people immediately know what kid of beverage you are describing at least the basic characteristics of the beverage even if that is not what the beverage is based on a strict definition.


#tag#winecoolers, hard soda, hard lemonade & more
 

Daze

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all that aside I would still LOVE to know what the OP had in mind so we can help him regardless of what category his request falls into.
 

kurtism

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Personally, I wouldn't trust wikipedia to define cider, but if you read it, they say that "Cider varies in alcohol content from 2% abv to 8.5% abv or more in traditional English ciders". www.bjcp.org , for example, lists cider styles up to 13%.

I asked the question about your "definition" because I don't believe there is a clear cut definition, yet everybody seem to have one. If you label your 18.6% apple beverage as cider, why would you make the blanket statement that "cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less"? I don't mean to give you a hard time. Just prior to reading your post, I read another stating that cider is 7% or less.
wow..i don't think you can read at all.

to doubt wikipedia and believe some other thing you hear/read on a forum is ridiculous because the same people that post of forums like this are the same people that edit wikipedia so you are just blindly choosing who to believe because it suits you. Obviously there is NO CLEAR CUT #!

some people even say cider is just apple juice, water and yeast, meaning no extra sugars while others are ok with adding sugar.

where the number actually is will vary quite a bit...but it is clear that the traditional definition is that an apple beverage in the "beer" range of ABV is a cider and one that is a higher ABV is apple wine. look at all the cider recipies, edwort's wine, etc.

For my label on my apple beverage, i particularly chose to use the words hard apple cider because it sounds better to me even though I know most people say that a beverage at 18.6% is clearly a wine not a cider. Had I distilled it and made apple brandy...I'd still call it cider because I just like the name better. that is a marketing decision. it is akin to applying the blanket term of champagne to california sparking white wine. it isn't champagne because it's not from that region of france but people still call it that because it is utterly identical except for some posh french rule.

most importantly why i doubt your ability to read and comprehend my point is that no matter what you want to call it...it is truly irrelevant because HARD APPLE CIDER IS WINE. It is a fruit wine. I am just repeating part of my above post that purely states that wine is an alcoholic beverage made from fermenting fruit without grain, is a wine. It doesn't matter if it is 2% or 15% ABV.

end rant...so as Daze said...I await the OP actually describing what he is trying to do.

the only issue is that this thread really be about is what the OP asked about...is he making an apple-orange cider or an orange wine.

to get back to that...if making an apple-orange blend, i'd ferment the apples to make your base and add the orange component to the secondary. if making an orange wine, i'd be concerned with the pH being too low for fermentation to start. I'd recommend a vigorous starter with a bit of citric acid to get the yeast accustomed to it.
 

brewingmeister

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Haha...Good to see we can argue daily about the definition of cider. a quick search gives this definition:

ci·der/ˈsīdər/
Noun:
An unfermented drink made by crushing fruit, typically apples.
An alcoholic drink made from fermented crushed fruit, typically apples.

It makes it more fun to argue what it is when there are multiple definitions for a apple based beverage that may or may not be fermented. Carry on.
 

truckjohn

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Sure, it's fun to argue about definitions...

But.. We still haven't gotten any sort of idea what Mr. OP is actually trying to do.... and that's the crux of the whole question....

Is he trying to ferment Orange juice - or is he trying to make an apple cider with an orange essence?

Thanks
 

kurtism

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i think the OP is probably fermenting away with his orange flavored beverage, whatever it may be, and just laughing at us (me?) in this thread
 

Daze

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This amazes me :) :) :) just yesterday I made the comment in reply to some one else's definition of "cider"

I think technically a cider has to be under 7%, anything over is wine.
Be carful I made that comment once before and it was like whacking a hornets nest. try and define "cider" and you will get a ton of different answers including some that allow for it to be more than 7%... a lot more :) :) :)
And sure enough here we are on a different thread and the hornets are buzzing about, and tempers are flaring, all over the definition of the word cider. WOW I am impressed!!! (no sarcasm, I am truly impresses)

I choose to see the positive in all this, obviously cider making is something we are all extremely passionate about or else defining it wouldn't cause such controversy. :mug:
 

brewingmeister

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Daze said:
This amazes me :) :) :) just yesterday I made the comment in reply to some one else's definition of "cider"
That's why I posted a definition which gives two different paths you could take to describe what cider is...and it doesn't get into the strength or any other variants.

Apparently the humor of the whole thing was lost somewhere along the road...

We can only guess what the op meant by orange cider.
 

NineMilBill

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Yep, I'm sure we'll never see a cider definition argument ever again...until tomorrow.
Actually, cider is a fermented apple beverage below 7% ABV.


Edit: I mean above 7%
Edit: Wait, no...that's wine
Edit: Unless there's malt, then that's Graff

Crap.

:D
 

beergeek73

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While every one was bickering about what cider, wine, beer, barley wine i came up with a recipe here it is for orange cream please try and let me know

2 gallons orange juice
s cans orange juice concentrate
1 lbs oats
1oz vanilla extract
4 lbs surgar

heat orange juice, oats in grain bag and vanilla extract to 160f in pot do not go over 170f, add sugar and let set at 160-170f for 20 min cool down to 80f and put in fermentor, with 3 gallons cold water to drop to 72f add yeast maybe a alel yeast or a witbeir yeast let sit for 7-10 days and test, put in keg and carbonate for 24 hours and bottle
 

robbyhicks

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Have you attempted this beergeek? I would be interested in trying something along these lines...
 

Apple_Jacker

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7-10 days seems awfully fast to get a (good tasting) product from an orange wine. And from what I've read, orange smells and tastes god-awful...at first. Also, I don't think heating the juice is necessary, unless you are just heating enough of the juice to dissolve the sugar. I'll be checking on this one for sure. It if turns out good for you, maybe I'll attempt a 1 gallon tester.

Edit: I should look at the dates before I reply haha. Did you make this, and how did it turn out?
 

JLP

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While every one was bickering about what cider, wine, beer, barley wine i came up with a recipe here it is for orange cream please try and let me know

2 gallons orange juice
s cans orange juice concentrate
1 lbs oats
1oz vanilla extract
4 lbs surgar

heat orange juice, oats in grain bag and vanilla extract to 160f in pot do not go over 170f, add sugar and let set at 160-170f for 20 min cool down to 80f and put in fermentor, with 3 gallons cold water to drop to 72f add yeast maybe a alel yeast or a witbeir yeast let sit for 7-10 days and test, put in keg and carbonate for 24 hours and bottle
Has anyone actually tried this recipe?
 

robbyhicks

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Any results from this one as of yet? I did see another thread that reference skeeterpee, fermenting lemonade, so I cant imagine this being all THAT bad...
 

Evochild

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This Im keen to try. I am debating about doing it in a similar style to my Gingerbeer or using the oats and boil recipe. I assume that the oats is used to give the "creamy" feel / taste to the brew. I would possibly boil the oats and sugar together and not the orange juice.

Ive been wanting to experiment a bit this could be fun.
 

robbyhicks

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If you really want to add to thd creaminess maybe half and half or 3 to 1 sugar to lactose...
 

ciderbearlord

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Hey guys, besides all the definition rambles I've actually been interested in making different fruit-cider style drinks for a while now due to the lack of apples in my area.

Right now I have an orange, lemon, lime and strawberry batch in the works. I'm not sure whether to call it fruit wine or something cider.
(However, depending on the fruits.. Like say you use pear.. It's known as Perry or as some people call it Pear-cider.)

But it doesn't seem to matter. I've been trying to keep a consistency with the yeast I've used in all my batches. So for the next one coming up I have, orange, pear and peach all using a Nottingham yeast. The only thing that varies are the nutrients.

Pretty excited to taste them all. Ill let you guys know how it comes out in a week.
 

nitack

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Daze said:
Perceptions:

Grain = beer
Honey = meed
fruit -apples + higher ABV = wine
co2 + wine = champaign/sparkling wine
apples = cider

and maybe
fruit - apples + lower ABV + or - sweetenss + or - co2 = winecoolers, hard soda, hard lemonade & more but is ≠to wine
+1 million for mathamatizing alcohol definitions
 

outside92129

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I'm a bit late to this thread but I have come across orange cider/wine in the south pacific. It was just like apple cider, but made with oranges instead. It was good and it'll knock you on your a$$ (way above 8.5%). I (nor they) know what yeast was used, per oral tradition it's from the skin of the oranges (but they inoculate with some of the trub of the previous batch).
 

siletzspey

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I had the good fortune of drinking orange bush beer at a Tumu Nu on the Island of Atiu in the Cook Islands. I found the drink both flavorful and pleasant. For visitors lucky enough to get an invite to a Tumu Nu session, it's customary to donate a bucket of oranges or $5.

Though I was never able to get a recipe, I did learn that bananas, pineapples and other fruits are also used.

The closest I've come to a recipe is in:

http://books.google.com/books?id=RGBY9yvybVgC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=atiu+island+orange+bush+beer

In summary: one basket of oranges, peel and place in sack, squash and strain juice into container by hand, put wild honey or sugar in, let set for 3-4 nights.

--SiletzSpey
 

outside92129

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Siletzpey- You're one of the few people i've bumped into who's experienced it, most people skip the cooks : ( Which tumanu did you go to? Aretou/Sam and the Boys had us over. Thanks for the article link, i'm trying to replicate the brew now as we speak. I sorta got their recipe (below) but the article has more detail. Unfortunately I don't have their yeast so i'm using S-05 for a clean ferment.

AppleJacker - I thought it was really good! It didn't smell bad at all. The tumanu style/setting is a very social way of drinking, completely different from our bar scene!

I got the following from Roger Malcom (kiwi ex-pat that moved to the island 30+ years and built his own hotel. I have to plug his place, highly recommended! Atui isn't for everyone though)
http://www.atiuvillas.com/

Kia Orana-
The yeast is from oranges. I believe there is just one yeast strain
circulating on Atiu at present. A small amount of the yeast sediment of
the last brew is used to start the next brew. The original strain came
from starting a brew with oranges some ripe, some green, to give a
bitter flavour. When oranges are not in season we use malt, hops and
sugar, the normal ingredients.
 

siletzspey

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Outside - I can't recall which tumunu, but our hosts treated us very well, and Marshall (local guide) drove us back to Roger's place. All that, plus a day with Birdman George, plus the local dance/drum group, made Atiu the single best vacation my wife and I have ever been on. On our recent second trip, we visited Mangaia, and while not famous for bush-beer like Atiu, I learned that many of the islands use a variety of fruits to make their brews, and bananas in particular may be a common supplement. While on Aitutaki and Mau'ke, bush beer making was far less evident.

Seeing Roger's comment about malt + hops is great. That confirms my guess that there was the real and simple orange+sugar+yeast drink, and malt+hops was a separate drink.

--SiletzSpey
 

outside92129

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Wow, you're bringing back memories! Here's a pic of the tumunu in Aretou with 4 tourists crashing the party, you can make out the 5gal bucket of hooch in the middle of the circle and the bar man behind it. And i didn't know about the brew session beforehand, i'd like to pitch next time around.

I'm thinking i need to go back, this time w/ the kids.

IMG_8232_md.jpg
 

Texconsinite

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Firstly, I don't care what a cider is OFFICIALLY defined as. If its bubbly, made from fruit, and not strong enough to call a sparkling wine, I'm calling it a cider for lack of a better term. And nobody can stop me, because I homebrew so I get to put whatever I want on the label :p

NOW to actually respond to the OP:
I wondered the same thing, and made a gallon of cider with Pineapple Orange Juice awhile back. I wasn't really sure how to account for differences in acidity or sugar content, so I just put in a little more yeast nutrient than I would've for apple juice.
I fermented the straight juice (no sugar added) on a US-04 yeast cake from an apple cider that I had just bottled, thinking that the existing cake might have a better chance surviving the acidic conditions than a new packet trying to get started. It fermented like crazy, so that worked.

I transferred to bottling bucket after two weeks, and it smelled like VOMIT. I thought it might be ruined, it was very bitter and tart, so I backsweetend with 1 can apple juice concentrate. Still tasted too tart, so I also added a can of Old Orchard 100% berry blend Concentrate to hopefully salvage something sweet enough to be drinkable. SWMBO thought it was ok after that.

Ironically it fermented to 6.66% ABV, and tasted like death, so I quickly labeled it Super Devil Juice on bottling day, and chalked it up as a failed experiment. I was pleasantly surprised when I tried it carbed, pasterurized and chilled. SWMBO liked it as well. Also, the 2 cans of Concentrate I backsweetened with to "save" it caused it to carb up quick before I pasteurized, so it foams like a banshee when you crack a bottle, but its drinkable.
I think with citrus, moreso than apple, the carbing and chilling makes a big difference. Kinda like the difference btw warm Dr. Pepper and ice cold one. The acidic, pukey taste is subsided, and more of the (other) fruit flavors balance out some of the citrus bite after it had some time to age and chill.

The Berry blend kinda carries the flavor (i was hoping it did), but the citrus is still very present, and you cant even taste the apple. Im not sure how this wouldve tasted if I had stuck w citrus and backsweetened with a can of Orange Juice Concentrate, but even with the delicious Berry Blend's help, its not an experiment i plan to repeat.
For the finished flavor I got, I wouldve rather started with a Berry blend juice (which probably has apple juice as first ingredient anyways), and backsweeten with the BB. Then Id get the berry sweetness without the citrusy tartness, which I think wouldve been addition by subtraction.

I think the pineapple really what made it gross, as they can have that insipid taste sometimes, so this might have better success as just an OJ beverage without pineapple. Unfortunately, I bailed out at bottling time in this citrus journey, so if someone else is brave enough to try this, try to ignore the smell when backsweetening and just realize it will taste sweeter when its cold and bubbly. Maybe using sweet citrus fruits like clementines or mandarin orange would also yield better results. Just say no to Pineapple, and I wouldn't try grapefruit either.

Good luck, hope that helps OP.
 

worlddivides

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I'm honestly really confused about why people are arguing over clearly understood definitions that are STRICTLY defined and have been strictly defined in the English language for hundreds of years.

The reason the word "cider" even exists is solely tradition.

If an alcoholic drink is made from fruit, REGARDLESS of what alcoholic percentage, it is wine. You can find wine made from grapes that is as low as 5% alcohol. It is still wine. Without a clarifying word, "wine" means made from grapes. Cider is the one special term among wines in English. Partially because in most regions grapes and apples were the only fruits used for alcoholic beverages.

In some languages, the word for "cider" is literally "apple wine" (for example, in German). And, even in English, the words "cider" and "apple wine" can be used interchangeably, although "apple wine" does tend to have an image of higher alcohol concentration. There is, of course, a lot of confusion in the US because "cider" in American English can also refer to unfiltered apple juice, which is just called "unfiltered apple juice" in other countries like the UK and Australia. The term cider itself originated solely to refer to the alcoholic product of apples. Any alcoholic level is okay, but up until somewhat "recently" apple juice only resulted in beverages of alcoholic levels between 2% and 7% (many traditional French ciders have alcoholic levels near 2%).

Just confused why people are arguing over something where there is no room for arguing. Just like you can't call a Russian Imperial Stout "a distilled beverage," you can't call a peach wine a "peach cider" unless there are apples in there (and even then, you're really walking a fine line).





Back to the subject at hand, I've asked wine makers about this before and I was told that the main reason that wines are very rarely made from citric fruits (oranges, grapefruits, lemons, limes, etc.) is because it takes a hell of a long time to make them palatable and oftentimes they never get palatable. I believe also that there are not a lot of yeast strains that do very well in such an acidic environment (especially with more acidic citric fruits like lemons and limes, but also with oranges, grapefruits, and so on).

That said, you can definitely make an orange wine. The question is whether you would want to. :)
 
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