Optimum Wyeast 1318 London Ale III Fermentation Temp for NEIPA?

[Hopping4Hops]

I brewed my first NEIPA using this yeast, second brew so far, first time using a temperature controller for the fermentation. I set the temp at 19C (66F), but with a 2 degree delay, so it fermented mostly at 20C (68F) for 39 hours. Then I checked the gravity, find it had dropped from 14 to 8 Brix. However, I opened the bucket to dry hop and found it frothy. I harvested some yeast and dry hopped, watching it froth up again quite quickly. So, if this frothing means it is on high krausen and fermenting strongly, how are the brix readings explained? I also had mashed quite high, starting at 68C (154F).

 

[D20]

I've used 1318 for nearly every batch I've made for the past 18 months or so, all from the same batch of yeast. I've always top-cropped on day 3 of fermentation and reused the yeast in subsequent brews. One thing I've noticed in taking 1318 through so many generations is that it gets more finicky about temperatures. Right now I can't get it to do anything below 66f. But if I start it at 67f, watch out. It'll take off like crazy. Just sharing that in case some of you are cropping and reusing this strain. I don't remember 1318 starting off that way, but definitely by the 7th or 8th generation I had to be more careful about the starting temp.

 

[samandbekah]

For those of you making NE IPAs... How's the aroma/nose been with 1318?

I've been using Vermont Ale from the Yeast Bay for my NE IPAs... it always starts off well and ferments quickly. I typically pitch at 64 and temp control it a degree or two per day until it hits 70/71 by day 5/6. Then I add my dry hops and attempt to bung it to naturally carb and capture the dry hop aroma. The beer is great aromatically for the first week (after the yeast bite drops out) but I notice as time goes on (weeks 3 to 4 and beyond) the aroma collapses. Maybe even as early as week the later half of week 2. Flavor hangs on strong but the aroma isn't as quite "right out of the bag".

Curious to know what anyone here has had for results in comparison with 1318.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Most folks in this thread recommend mid-60's as a starting point. I'm wondering if anyone lets it ride around 70°+?

My next NEIPA will be a mix of 1318 and 1272, both underpitched without a starter.

 

[couchsending]

For long lasting punchy aroma you need to keep O2 to zero and also get as much yeast as possible out of the beer before last DH addition... some yeasts you can crash to 60 and they’ll flocc some you need to go lower. Aroma from dry hopping in the high 50s/low 60s will last longer as well. Dry hopping during fermentation (always after krausen has fallen) will provide some aroma but it’s impact is more flavor based.

Also from a brewer who has been using 1318 as his house yeast since the mid 90s and has won piles of medals at GABF including IIPA and IPA and yes makes awesome hazy beer too. For hoppy beers he ferments at 66 and leaves it there, sometimes will ramp to 68 with a small amount of gravity left if diacetyl reduction was sluggish. He’ll wait two days after terminal, pull yeast, and DH. He only dry hops for 2 days at a time. Sometimes a second addition will be done in the bright tank. He makes wonderful beer and has actually won a GABF gold for cream ale with a large overpitch or 1318 fermented in the low 60s. He also mashes at 149 religiously in order to get the beer dry enough so it isn’t as sweet. 1318 is known for being rather soft and sweet especially at higher FG. Personally I can’t stand it above 1.014.

 

[day_trippr]

For long lasting punchy aroma you need to keep O2 to zero [...]

Obviously, zero ain't happening, but the lower one can keep the DO the longer all of the beer's better characters will last.
I agree oxidation is the prime suspect with any beer that the first pours present with a hoppy nose but that attenuates over a fairly short time (like a week or two).

Interesting thought about cold crashing before dry hopping, if only because it functionally contravenes part of the O2-avoidance thing.
I do not cold-crash before dry hopping, though the idea might spur me to try that on half of the next batch to get a direct comparison against the traditionally-hopped half...

Cheers!

 

[couchsending]

Obviously, zero ain't happening, but the lower one can keep the DO the longer all of the beer's better characters will last.
I agree oxidation is the prime suspect with any beer that the first pours present with a hoppy nose but that attenuates over a fairly short time (like a week or two).

Interesting thought about cold crashing before dry hopping, if only because it functionally contravenes part of the O2-avoidance thing.
I do not cold-crash before dry hopping, though the idea might spur me to try that on half of the next batch to get a direct comparison against the traditionally-hopped half...

Cheers!

Some yeasts you need to get really cold before they flocc others will drop with just a soft crash. Yes if you don’t have a way to maintain some sort of positive pressure O2 pickup is a real concern.

This is my procedure, I don’t have a unitank just some SS Chronicals. Put the pressure transfer piece on with say 1 Plato to go. It releases pressure above 2psi I think so it doesn’t really carbonate but it helps a little and helps maintain some pressure without having to use external CO2. Let it sit for a few days after TG then slowly bring down temps over a period of say 6-8hr or longer, depending on yeast strain and temp while maintaining positive pressure. Leave for say 24 hours, dump as much yeast as possible, once maybe twice. Let beer warm back up to around 60, attach Co2 to sample valve, bubble Co2 through beer to create Co2 environment, remove pressure transfer valve from top, drop in hops (that are crushed as much as possible) and re-attach transfer valve. Let sit at 60ish for 4 days or until Aroma is where u want. I will resuspend hops with C02 through the racking port a few times. Ideally then crash to as low as you can while again maintaining positive pressure, let sit for a few days to let as much Hop matter settle as possible and force transfer to a very well purged keg.

Awesome defined Hop character that lasts a long time.

 

[Tyler Hurst]

Just did one in a swamp cooler with 2 fish tank heaters. Swamp cooler filled with water to just below level of beer in fermenter. Ambient temp on space was 55-60f, I set the heaters to 64-65 degrees with a temp controller. After 4 days raised it 1 degree, then gently ramped it over the next 4 days to 69. Temp probe taped to outside of fermenter under the water line.

I would love to see a picture of your setup with some explanation of how it works?

 

[samandbekah]

Some yeasts you need to get really cold before they flocc others will drop with just a soft crash. Yes if you don’t have a way to maintain some sort of positive pressure O2 pickup is a real concern.

This is my procedure, I don’t have a unitank just some SS Chronicals. Put the pressure transfer piece on with say 1 Plato to go. It releases pressure above 2psi I think so it doesn’t really carbonate but it helps a little and helps maintain some pressure without having to use external CO2. Let it sit for a few days after TG then slowly bring down temps over a period of say 6-8hr or longer, depending on yeast strain and temp while maintaining positive pressure. Leave for say 24 hours, dump as much yeast as possible, once maybe twice. Let beer warm back up to around 60, attach Co2 to sample valve, bubble Co2 through beer to create Co2 environment, remove pressure transfer valve from top, drop in hops (that are crushed as much as possible) and re-attach transfer valve. Let sit at 60ish for 4 days or until Aroma is where u want. I will resuspend hops with C02 through the racking port a few times. Ideally then crash to as low as you can while again maintaining positive pressure, let sit for a few days to let as much Hop matter settle as possible and force transfer to a very well purged keg.

Awesome defined Hop character that lasts a long time.

Awesome notes here, following you on another thread so this detail is fantastic, thank you. I have a similar setup as you and will try this on my next double IPA... Question though is after you crash for the second time, how low do you go and how long do you hold for?

On my last IPA I crashed to 45 and held for 36 hours but still ended up getting him debris which clogged my ball valve on the keg and ultimately lost the closed transfer. It was about as pound of hops on 16 gallons of beer.

 

[samandbekah]

Some yeasts you need to get really cold before they flocc others will drop with just a soft crash. Yes if you don’t have a way to maintain some sort of positive pressure O2 pickup is a real concern.

This is my procedure, I don’t have a unitank just some SS Chronicals. Put the pressure transfer piece on with say 1 Plato to go. It releases pressure above 2psi I think so it doesn’t really carbonate but it helps a little and helps maintain some pressure without having to use external CO2. Let it sit for a few days after TG then slowly bring down temps over a period of say 6-8hr or longer, depending on yeast strain and temp while maintaining positive pressure. Leave for say 24 hours, dump as much yeast as possible, once maybe twice. Let beer warm back up to around 60, attach Co2 to sample valve, bubble Co2 through beer to create Co2 environment, remove pressure transfer valve from top, drop in hops (that are crushed as much as possible) and re-attach transfer valve. Let sit at 60ish for 4 days or until Aroma is where u want. I will resuspend hops with C02 through the racking port a few times. Ideally then crash to as low as you can while again maintaining positive pressure, let sit for a few days to let as much Hop matter settle as possible and force transfer to a very well purged keg.

Awesome defined Hop character that lasts a long time.

What kind of hardware are you using/attaching to the sample port to create the CO2 environment? I have the same fermenters as you. How are you accomplishing this without getting beer in your CO2 line? Cranking the PSI way up to compensate for the downward force from the beer?

 

[samandbekah]

Some yeasts you need to get really cold before they flocc others will drop with just a soft crash. Yes if you don’t have a way to maintain some sort of positive pressure O2 pickup is a real concern.

This is my procedure, I don’t have a unitank just some SS Chronicals. Put the pressure transfer piece on with say 1 Plato to go. It releases pressure above 2psi I think so it doesn’t really carbonate but it helps a little and helps maintain some pressure without having to use external CO2. Let it sit for a few days after TG then slowly bring down temps over a period of say 6-8hr or longer, depending on yeast strain and temp while maintaining positive pressure. Leave for say 24 hours, dump as much yeast as possible, once maybe twice. Let beer warm back up to around 60, attach Co2 to sample valve, bubble Co2 through beer to create Co2 environment, remove pressure transfer valve from top, drop in hops (that are crushed as much as possible) and re-attach transfer valve. Let sit at 60ish for 4 days or until Aroma is where u want. I will resuspend hops with C02 through the racking port a few times. Ideally then crash to as low as you can while again maintaining positive pressure, let sit for a few days to let as much Hop matter settle as possible and force transfer to a very well purged keg.

Awesome defined Hop character that lasts a long time.

One more question... When you say the hops should be crushed as much as possible... Are you just using pellet hops or are you taking pellet hops and putting them through a food processor and then into your fermenter for the dry hop?

 

[couchsending]

What kind of hardware are you using/attaching to the sample port to create the CO2 environment? I have the same fermenters as you. How are you accomplishing this without getting beer in your CO2 line? Cranking the PSI way up to compensate for the downward force from the beer?

It doesn’t take much Co2... honestly I don’t remember maybe 10 PsI max.

I don’t use a dedicated Co2 line. I just use some random tubing I have that fits on the sample port with a little force (I have to go look up the ID of the tubing, don’t know it off the top of my head).

I have a dedicated Co2 tank with two regulators that I leave next to my conicals. One line goes to a manifold that has three separate lines with a pressure transfer fitting for each conical. The other line has just a regular ball lock gas disconnect that I’ll use for purging kegs before transfer.

If I’m trying to create a positive Co2 environment through the sample arm I’ll just disconnect the line with the ball lock and add the line that fits over the sample valve. Crank it up and slip in on while pushing Co2 through it. Sure I’ll get a little beer in the line but not much. The downward force of the liquid isn’t that strong. I don’t really do this any more as It didn’t really prove to be necessary.

I will however resuspend the hops with Co2. I just use the same line is use for transferring to a keg. It has a TC fitting on one end. Just hook it up to Co2, turn it on while connecting to Conical and open the valve on the racking arm. The PRV on the transfer fitting releases at 3-5 PSI so if you crank it to 10 it doesn’t really matter, you’re not going to damage anything.

 

[couchsending]

One more question... When you say the hops should be crushed as much as possible... Are you just using pellet hops or are you taking pellet hops and putting them through a food processor and then into your fermenter for the dry hop?

God no.. I just put them in a heavy duty bag and hit them with a hammer for a while to crush them up some. The really high oil content hops that are pelletized with low heat will crumble real easily. Others might not.

I’ve actually started preheating the dry hops as well. I’ll weigh out my dry hop quantity, put them in a vacuum bag, seal them, then submerge them in 120* water for a while.

 

[samandbekah]

It doesn’t take much Co2... honestly I don’t remember maybe 10 PsI max.

I don’t use a dedicated Co2 line. I just use some random tubing I have that fits on the sample port with a little force (I have to go look up the ID of the tubing, don’t know it off the top of my head).

I have a dedicated Co2 tank with two regulators that I leave next to my conicals. One line goes to a manifold that has three separate lines with a pressure transfer fitting for each conical. The other line has just a regular ball lock gas disconnect that I’ll use for purging kegs before transfer.

If I’m trying to create a positive Co2 environment through the sample arm I’ll just disconnect the line with the ball lock and add the line that fits over the sample valve. Crank it up and slip in on while pushing Co2 through it. Sure I’ll get a little beer in the line but not much. The downward force of the liquid isn’t that strong. I don’t really do this any more as It didn’t really prove to be necessary.

I will however resuspend the hops with Co2. I just use the same line is use for transferring to a keg. It has a TC fitting on one end. Just hook it up to Co2, turn it on while connecting to Conical and open the valve on the racking arm. The PRV on the transfer fitting releases at 3-5 PSI so if you crank it to 10 it doesn’t really matter, you’re not going to damage anything.

Thanks - I have some spare tubing lying around, I'll have to try that as well. I just finished dropping some yeast out (second time now but I used WYEAST 1968 on this last batch and it is SUPER thick, almost like peanut butter whenever I dump it) and I'm on my second dry hop... Definitely want to try this approach to rouse the hops and get more extraction from the oils...

God no.. I just put them in a heavy duty bag and hit them with a hammer for a while to crush them up some. The really high oil content hops that are pelletized with low heat will crumble real easily. Others might not.

I’ve actually started preheating the dry hops as well. I’ll weigh out my dry hop quantity, put them in a vacuum bag, seal them, then submerge them in 120* water for a while.

Interesting - never heard of that concept before - what is point of warming them up only to drop them into your beer at half that temp? So have you had better results with aroma from crushing them first instead of letting the pellets dissolve?

 

[couchsending]

Interesting - never heard of that concept before - what is point of warming them up only to drop them into your beer at half that temp? So have you had better results with aroma from crushing them first instead of letting the pellets dissolve?

It’s something I haven’t exactly heard of either, just been experimenting with it. To me it makes more sense than dropping pellets in the fermenter straight out of the freezer. I put them in 120* water, the pellets are pretty darn cold so they probably just heat up to just above room temp.

 

[Tyler Hurst]

Sooo since we are on the topic of 1318 fermenting temps.
I am making a new NEIPA and made a starter. I put it on my stir plate in my swamp cooler with a heat wrap in the cooler which is connected to a thermostat. I set the thermostat to 64 and left the top slightly open to vent in my basement with PA winter ambient temp of 52 degrees. Only problem is, I accidentally left the probe outside of the cooler. Came home and the cooler and starter temp was well over 108 degrees (the thermostats highest readout) The Erlenmeyer flask was almost too hot to touch. Should I just throw the yeast out? I removed the heat wrap, took it off the stir plate and am just seeing if it is going to have any airlock activity. I have another package of 1318 for BD this weekend but, if it starts taking off is there any harm in decanting the wort (filled with esters) and throwing these shocked yeasties into my brew?

 

[isomerization]

Sooo since we are on the topic of 1318 fermenting temps.
I am making a new NEIPA and made a starter. I put it on my stir plate in my swamp cooler with a heat wrap in the cooler which is connected to a thermostat. I set the thermostat to 64 and left the top slightly open to vent in my basement with PA winter ambient temp of 52 degrees. Only problem is, I accidentally left the probe outside of the cooler. Came home and the cooler and starter temp was well over 108 degrees (the thermostats highest readout) The Erlenmeyer flask was almost too hot to touch. Should I just throw the yeast out? I removed the heat wrap, took it off the stir plate and am just seeing if it is going to have any airlock activity. I have another package of 1318 for BD this weekend but, if it starts taking off is there any harm in decanting the wort (filled with esters) and throwing these shocked yeasties into my brew?

Too hot to touch sounds like your approaching upper limit of most yeast (I believe around 40C?).

If you want to risk it, I’d take a portion of the current starter and propagate in a new batch of wort. You’ll know if your yeast is viable that way.