opinions on moving from extract to all grain

[Murphys_Law]

I went to BIAB from partial mash for a few reasons:

1) I keep my gear in a small closet in my basement and haul it out each brew day so storage, set-up, etc was/is a big consideration.

2) general ease and simplicity.

3) Thought it was a good bridge should I want to go to a 3V system and I'm really only out of a few $$'s on the bag. I've since decided to stick with BIAB so I built a pulley stand out of 1/2 black iron pipe bought at Home Depot (think I paid around $60)

I haven't worried about sparge. The draining water from the hanging bag carries sugars out of the grain and into my kettle and I can easily hold back a gallon of water and rinse my grain bag if I want. If I'm worried about my numbers (efficiency) then I can add another pound of grain. That's what... under $2?

Either way you'll make good beer if you pay attention to your process from start to finish.

 

[Homercidal]

I've always brewed 3V since changing from extract about a bazillion years ago!

Well, that is right up until I had reason to try BIAB. After doing many batches both ways I have the firm conviction that is doesn't matter which you do it AT ALL!

I've been a batch sparger since starting AG and I too prefer to sparge my BIAB batches. I do this by dunking the bag in a second vessel full of hot sparge water and stirring it up. Then I pull up the bag and let it drip in either the sparge or mash wort, and pour the other into that vessel it drips while the boil is heating up.

Honestly, I recommend trying BIAB before building a mash tun, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with a 2-3V system, but you have everything you need to BIAB except maybe the bag! Solve the heat loss by wrapping the MLT/BK in a spare blanket or something.

You don't have to sparge if you dont' want to. You can calculate for a NO-SPARGE batch and top-up water, or simply do what a lot of other BIAB brewers do, and that's to calculate the mash to use the Full Volume of pre-boil wort and not top-up The second option is more efficient if your BK can handle the entire batch of water and grain. Some brewers I know use this method and their beers turn out just fine.

In addition I'd like to recommend some other things that can help if you aren't doing them already:

Water Treatment - Make SURE your water doesn't have chlorine of chloramine in it. Even if you can't taste it in the water, it can come out in the fermented beer as an off-flavor.
Temp Control - Make the yeast serve you in the temple YOU built, and they will reward you with offerings of heavenly flavor. Yeast are quite happy at temperatures higher than those which make the best beer. Equally, a fairly consistent temp prevents the yeast from changing from beer-making mode to hibernation and back.
Oxygen Control - Perfect your beer-handling methods to limit the exposure to air/oxygen will help protect the beer from staling as it is being drunked.
Mill Gap - Not as important as the others, but can affect efficiency and you want a reasonable efficiency if you can.

Bottom line for me is that BIAB or 3V is fine. There are differences within each broad method that you can choose from, and they all can make great beer.

 

[PADave]

The bottom line is you got to find what works for you. Figure out what you want to do, what fits your brew location, budget, etc. Yes, it might take some trial and error. As long a you make good brews, and you can easily repeat your process, who's to say that it's wrong? I quickly found that BIAB works for me, yet I'm always trying to make little changes to my process. But that change must either make my beer better, or make my brewing life easier, otherwise I don't do it. There are many roads to get to the same place, figure out which one you want to take and educate yourself on how to make the best of it.

 

[TBC]

I started out extract then went to all grain using a strut stand 3 tier system so I didn't need a pump. Also bought a blichmann burner for the boil to speed up the brew day. Brew days were okay but my back hurt at the end of the day due to the lifting.

So, I went and bought a grainfather over a year ago and have no regrets. My back no longer hurts and the grainfather offers some set it and forget time so you can tend to other things. I still have the 3 tier system but only use it for 10 gallon batches or very high gravity brews.

Not sure where you live but it is nice to brew all grain indoors during the winter. If I had to do it all over again I would've invested in an electric system from day one.

 

[GPP33]

Brewed two 5 gal batches today. Thinking of this thread I really tried to figure out where BIAB would save time or effort. I've been thinking about trying it and am stuck on the fence. I really didn't find an easy answer. My sparges took 30 minutes and 20 minutes, I'd image you need to let the bag drip for a while so I'm not seeing a huge time savings by eliminating the sparge. You still need to heat your strike water, you still need to let it sit for an hour (or 90 min), you still need to boil it and you still need to chill it. You still need to set everything up and you still need to clean everything up. If you were starting from scratch you'd save on a mash tun and sparge kettle.

Then it hit me. I already have a stand with two burners and have 2 Keggles. If I get two bags those back to back brews could become side by side brews. My time savings would be over 3 hours IF I'm doing a double brew day. Currently my second brew was exactly 4 hours behind my first (I probably could have cut that down a little if I really tried). With side by side BIAB I could offset them by 30 minutes and still have plenty of time to tend to both. Big problem now is I really know how my system works, going to BIAB would set me back a little.

 

[RM-MN]

Brewed two 5 gal batches today. Thinking of this thread I really tried to figure out where BIAB would save time or effort. I've been thinking about trying it and am stuck on the fence. I really didn't find an easy answer. My sparges took 30 minutes and 20 minutes, I'd image you need to let the bag drip for a while so I'm not seeing a huge time savings by eliminating the sparge. You still need to heat your strike water, you still need to let it sit for an hour (or 90 min), you still need to boil it and you still need to chill it. You still need to set everything up and you still need to clean everything up. If you were starting from scratch you'd save on a mash tun and sparge kettle.

Then it hit me. I already have a stand with two burners and have 2 Keggles. If I get two bags those back to back brews could become side by side brews. My time savings would be over 3 hours IF I'm doing a double brew day. Currently my second brew was exactly 4 hours behind my first (I probably could have cut that down a little if I really tried). With side by side BIAB I could offset them by 30 minutes and still have plenty of time to tend to both. Big problem now is I really know how my system works, going to BIAB would set me back a little.

It requires that you forget the old paradigms and try some new things. I mill my grain really fine. With that I get conversion really quickly so I've quit doing the 60 or 90 minute mash and have gone to 20 or 30 minute mashes. I sparge while the pot is coming to a boil so that is a concurrent activity instead of waiting for the sparge to complete. I read up on bittering and discovered that 90% of the bittering happens within 30 minutes of boil so for an extra fraction of an ounce of hops I gain 30 minutes by not boiling for a full hour. Since I don't boil for as long, I also need to adjust the amount of water but that means it takes less fuel to do the boil too, another win. Now the biggest wait is for cooling and if I wished I could brew another batch while I wait or...I could do a no-chill and just walk away from the brew. That takes another change and not necessarily a good one because any late addition hops will become bittering hops but some recipes don't have the late additions or just dry hops so those work well. Sometimes I will just pour the boiling wort right into a bucket fermenter and put the lid on so I can finish my cleanup and pitch the yeast the next day when the wort finally cools to pitching temp. Remember the people worried about scratches in the plastic harboring bacteria? Not after I dump boiling wort into the bucket.

 

[bucfan1234]

All of those are pretty cool ideas! Could probably mirror some of them in 3V by doing a no sparge mash and then using your boil schedule.

Is it a worry to have plastic in contact with boiling wort?

 

[RM-MN]

All of those are pretty cool ideas! Could probably mirror some of them in 3V by doing a no sparge mash and then using your boil schedule.

Is it a worry to have plastic in contact with boiling wort?

It depends on the type of plastic. HDPE, what the white buckets are made of, is food safe to temps above the boiling point. Not all plastics are. Know what plastic you have and research what it does at boiling temps. Some may deform like autosiphons.

 

[madscientist451]

You can use a very simple set up to make wort, or get very complicated and expensive. How often you brew, your free time and available resources are all a part of deciding what equipment to buy.
But the fermentation equipment and after ferment packaging is just (or more) as important as your method for making wort.

 

[ericbw]

I use 3 vessels and like it. Biab works for small batches on the stove, but hoisting and ratcheting... too much extra configuration for me.

 

[seabrew8]

This is a neat and relatively cheap system. You could use your existing kettle for sparge water.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=595987

I have a grainfather myself.

 

[Ashevillain]

What I ended up doing is getting a kettle that can be set up for ebiab. Until I save up for that upgrade I will do extract, but once I switch to all grain it will be just right for me. One vessel, cheaper ingredients, same amount of cleaning, brew inside, high level of mash control.

To me its worth going to all grain if you love brewing. But doing that ideally as far as time and space isn't as easy as extract. So I started converting little by little, all the while learning more about biab. I think the transition will be easy in the future, but until then i will just continue enjoying my extract beers and getting ready.

 

[urg8rb8]

I used to be an extract brewer until one day I woke up and decided to move to all grain. I kept my process as simple and cheap as possible. Instead of getting "fancy" with a mash tun, I just got a 10 gallon igloo cooler with a large grain bag. I think this is the best of both traditional mashing and biab worlds.

I believe that the method I use is called mash in a bag.

 

[brewbama]

That's what I do. Mash in a bag and batch sparge. "Cheap and Easy" brewing at the heart of it.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1482866932.123262.jpg

 

[urg8rb8]

Yup, can't beat it!

 

[shortyz]

I started out extract then went to all grain using a strut stand 3 tier system so I didn't need a pump. Also bought a blichmann burner for the boil to speed up the brew day. Brew days were okay but my back hurt at the end of the day due to the lifting.

So, I went and bought a grainfather over a year ago and have no regrets. My back no longer hurts and the grainfather offers some set it and forget time so you can tend to other things. I still have the 3 tier system but only use it for 10 gallon batches or very high gravity brews.

Not sure where you live but it is nice to brew all grain indoors during the winter. If I had to do it all over again I would've invested in an electric system from day one.

Exactly what i did man, i live in a small apartment and the grainfather is a godsend. Its a well thought out machine and works great!

 

[ericbw]

That's what I do. Mash in a bag and batch sparge. "Cheap and Easy" brewing at the heart of it.

View attachment 382059

You guys are doing a traditional mash. The bag makes it easier to drain and clean it.

 

[Gerry_P]

My first AG batch was BIAB. My second all-grain batch was a traditional mash. Messing with the bag was more annoying to me than heating some sparge water while my grains were mashing and getting 15% higher efficiency right off the bat. I'm not sorry I tried it though, the simplicity of BIAB was the catalyst for me switching from extract to AG.

 

[MagicRat]

I started by just reading and researching for more than a year before I ever brewed but I knew I eventually wanted to do AG so decided to jump right in with both feet. It's just second nature to me now and I have no desire to do extract or BIAB. No regrets at all. After the initial outlay, I've invested very little in adding or replacing equipment. I brew once a month so a little StarSan or PBW goes a long way. My only real expense at this point is ingredients.

 

[brewbama]

You guys are doing a traditional mash. The bag makes it easier to drain and clean it.

Roger that. I recommend it for the efficiency boost and easy clean up. I've actually have to reduce grain and water to meet expected OG and volumes.

 

[Gerry_P]

I've seen many people express concern over the complexity of all-grain brewing, and many resort to BIAB because of its simplicity. I'm here to tell ya....conventional mashing ain't much harder. In fact, I prefer it. As a public service, I hired an expensive graphic design firm to create my "Super-Mega Comprehensive Guide to All-Grain Brewing: Created For Morons, By A Moron." If I come across as a condescending p***k, please keep in mind that it took me 20 years to figure this out.

 

[ericbw]

I started by just reading and researching for more than a year before I ever brewed but I knew I eventually wanted to do AG so decided to jump right in with both feet. It's just second nature to me now and I have no desire to do extract or BIAB. No regrets at all. After the initial outlay, I've invested very little in adding or replacing equipment. I brew once a month so a little StarSan or PBW goes a long way. My only real expense at this point is ingredients.

Now that you know how it all works, try an extract batch. Half the time.

 

[mongoose33]

I've seen many people express concern over the complexity of all-grain brewing, and many resort to BIAB because of its simplicity. I'm here to tell ya....conventional mashing ain't much harder. In fact, I prefer it. As a public service, I hired an expensive graphic design firm to create my "Super-Mega Comprehensive Guide to All-Grain Brewing: Created For Morons, By A Moron." If I come across as a condescending p***k, please keep in mind that it took me 20 years to figure this out.

That's my system!

The only thing I'd add--and I'm not a graphic artist so I cannot add a careful and well-designed picture--is that one can even make it simpler. I batch sparge, so after I've drained off the first runnings from the mash tun, I add 4 gallons (typically) of sparge water to the drained mash , mix it up w/ my mash paddle, and draw that off.

It's fast, it's easy, there's no hoisting of a bag, and it's easy to get most of the sugars out of the grist.

 

[RM-MN]

Now that you know how it all works, try an extract batch. Half the time.

I have a challenge for you then. I brew an all grain batch in the same or less time than most extract with steeping grains take if you follow the instructions. Figure out how I do it.

 

[ericbw]

It's been a while since you mentioned the 4 minute mash

Any mash takes longer than extract. Steep your grain as it heats, remove it at 155, add some extract at 60 and the rest at 15 or 10. Shake out grains and rinse bag. Never pause for mash or sparge.

Extract is faster than mashing because it's been mashed.

 

[DurtyChemist]

I went from extract to BIAB and now use an igloo cooler mash tun. I lucked into finding my mash tun for $10 at a yard sale and already had the bazooka screen in my kettle. Its really easy to get into BIAB and try it out. Buy the biggest hop/grain bag you can find at the brew shop and fill it with 10 lbs of grain. If you don't like it go with extract and/or find a local club brew day and check out people's setups. My local brew shop has brew days sometimes and the first one I went to I had an offer to use a Blichmann top tier to brew 10 gallons.

Cleanup of BIAB was simple to me. Flip the grain bag inside out and rinse. I just didn't really like lifting the bag out of my keggle on top of my Blichmann burner with leg extensions. Also my keg has kind of a sharp edge on it so it occasionally caught the bag.

My mash tun is easy to clean. I dump the grains into the trash, plastic grain bag they came in or the compost pile and rinse the remaining grains out. There isn't much left after dumping it and after this I add my PBW scoop and fill it with the hot water coming out of the chiller to clean everything.

As for "better, clearer beer" I don't think BIAB or a mash tun will ultimately result in this. It will come with experience and fermentation temperature control.

EDIT: As for cost, check Craigslist a lot. You'll be able to find brewing stuff depending on where you live. There is always someone getting out of the hobby or downsizing.

 

[Gerry_P]

That's my system!

The only thing I'd add--and I'm not a graphic artist so I cannot add a careful and well-designed picture--is that one can even make it simpler. I batch sparge, so after I've drained off the first runnings from the mash tun, I add 4 gallons (typically) of sparge water to the drained mash , mix it up w/ my mash paddle, and draw that off.

It's fast, it's easy, there's no hoisting of a bag, and it's easy to get most of the sugars out of the grist.

You too can be graphic artist like myself. All you need is MS Paint and about an hour to produce an elaborate chart like the one in my post. A kindergartener could have probably done it with a crayon in 30 seconds.

 

[motosapiens]

Extract is faster than mashing because it's been mashed.

buying bud lite is even fasterer, but just like extract, it's also measurably worser.

After 20 years of extract brewing, I only moved to all-grain 3 years ago when I figured out it doesn't have to be super crazy. The beer quality improved immediately, and I usually can find something to do during the wait period of the mash, like watch football, walk the dogs, make breakfast, wax skis, do dryfire practice (competitive pistol shooter), or troll the internet for people that are bad at math.

 

[Gerry_P]

buying bud lite is even fasterer, but just like extract, it's also measurably worser.

After 20 years of extract brewing, I only moved to all-grain 3 years ago when I figured out it doesn't have to be super crazy. The beer quality improved immediately, and I usually can find something to do during the wait period of the mash, like watch football, walk the dogs, make breakfast, wax skis, do dryfire practice (competitive pistol shooter), or troll the internet for people that are bad at math.

Personally I find AG to be more rewarding and worth the extra effort. Extract brewing always seemed like I was cheating a little. Actually more than a little, since mashing grains is arguably the most important part of the process and using extract cuts that out. I'm not knocking extract brewing or anything, just letting people know that if you decide to go AG you probably won't regret it.
I have a theory that some new brewers might be put off because certain parties are leading them to believe, for whatever reason, that they need an expensive, complicated AG setup to make excellent beer and that's not the case.

 

[urg8rb8]

I got my AG setup for $100 brand new equipment from retail stores. It's already paid itself off. Brewers don't realize that buying grain kernels is much cheaper than extract grain. So after a few batches, all that equipment is paid off.