Opinions on German Pseudo Pilsner recipe?

[Matheos]

Hi guys,
I am looking to brew my first pilsner, but as my living situation and equipment won't allow for using lager yeast, I am opting for the good ol' US-05 ale yeast instead, thus making this a "pseudo" pilsner.

Anything you think I should change or that looks messed up?

I will be treating my water with campden, but so far I have not gotten more into water chemistry.

 

[monkeymath]

I think a Kölsch or Altbier yeast might make a better "pseudo lager". Also note that lots of people swear by fermenting W34/70 warm - not all lager yeasts work at higher temperatures, but this one seems to do just fine. Haven't tried it myself, though.

The rest of the recipe looks good. A small addition of acidulated malt might help with the mash pH. Water is quite important in a pilsner.

 

[Matheos]

I think a Kölsch or Altbier yeast might make a better "pseudo lager". Also note that lots of people swear by fermenting W34/70 warm - not all lager yeasts work at higher temperatures, but this one seems to do just fine. Haven't tried it myself, though.

The rest of the recipe looks good. A small addition of acidulated malt might help with the mash pH. Water is quite important in a pilsner.

Thanks for your input! I will look into the warm fermenting w34/70... I am unfamiliar with "Acidulated malt". How much would you recommend, given I do not know the ph of my water nor my mash...

 

[lumbergh]

You may also want to look into Lutra yeast. Check out the thread in the yeast section

 

[Matheos]

You may also want to look into Lutra yeast. Check out the thread in the yeast section

Thanks for your suggestion I have used Kveik yes, but I feel like due to the current climate here in Finland, it may a bit on the lower end of Lutra's preferred fermenting temp range. Where I will ferment the beer I will probably get around 20-23 degreese Celcius at the moment, would that be enough for Lutra?

 

[hottpeper13]

Absolutly, I'm fermenting a Munich Dunkle that started at 20c took itself to 22c and is staying at 21c . The thing is Lutra takes as long to complete fermentation as US05 at these temps.

 

[monkeymath]

Thanks for your input! I will look into the warm fermenting w34/70... I am unfamiliar with "Acidulated malt". How much would you recommend, given I do not know the ph of my water nor my mash...

Phew. Without a water report, this is nothing but guesswork. But unless your water is very soft, some 100-200g of acidulated malt will be good. In Germany, most cities have quite hard water that requires substantially more treatment for a pils than just some acidulated malt. But I have no idea how the water in Finland is. Maybe it's better to start off without any adjustments and then try and tweak as you go.

 

[Matheos]

Absolutly, I'm fermenting a Munich Dunkle that started at 20c took itself to 22c and is staying at 21c . The thing is Lutra takes as long to complete fermentation as US05 at these temps.

Aaah, but you are saying lutra would be preferrable to US-05 due to its other characteristics, rather than its often shorter (during warm conditions) fermentation time? (In the case of a lager) Interesting... BTW, what is the difference between Lutra Kveik vs some other Kveik yeast? I have personally used Mangrove Jack's M12 Kveik yeast twice with great success. Would that do the job, though not named "Lutra"?

Phew. Without a water report, this is nothing but guesswork. But unless your water is very soft, some 100-200g of acidulated malt will be good. In Germany, most cities have quite hard water that requires substantially more treatment for a pils than just some acidulated malt. But I have no idea how the water in Finland is. Maybe it's better to start off without any adjustments and then try and tweak as you go.

Hmm okay. I googled quickly for water reports. Here it is in english and easy readable short text: Water quality It basically says we have about 8.6pH water and that our water is "very soft". The latest actual report on the page seems to be from 2017, so this may have changed a bit but it's better than nothing... These things considered, how much of the acidulated malt would be good?

 

[dmtaylor]

I would use S-189. Works great at any temperature, especially warm.

 

[monkeymath]

Hmm okay. I googled quickly for water reports. Here it is in english and easy readable short text: Water quality It basically says we have about 8.6pH water and that our water is "very soft". The latest actual report on the page seems to be from 2017, so this may have changed a bit but it's better than nothing... These things considered, how much of the acidulated malt would be good?

Well, "very soft" is not entirely specific (and the water's pH is not all too relevant for the mash), but based on this bit of info I think it'd be best to start out without trying to adjust the mash pH.

You could try measuring your mash pH with one of those cheap paper strips (I don't know how accurate those are, though), so you'll have some indication of where to go for your next iteration.

Just out of curiosity: your recipe mentions "Hallertauer" hops, but which variety is it? The Hallertau is a large hop growing region in Bavaria, and so you'd have hops labeled as e.g. "Hallertauer Hersbrucker" (meaning hops of variety "Hersbrucker" grown in the Hallertau), but I don't think any variety is actually called "Hallertauer" ... ? (The name of the variety "Hersbrucker" also derives from the name of a region in Franconia, but still it is no geographical designation: Hersbrucker from Hersbruck is called "Hersbrucker Hersbrucker", which is silly enough to make you want to order it.

 

[Matheos]

Well, "very soft" is not entirely specific (and the water's pH is not all too relevant for the mash), but based on this bit of info I think it'd be best to start out without trying to adjust the mash pH.

You could try measuring your mash pH with one of those cheap paper strips (I don't know how accurate those are, though), so you'll have some indication of where to go for your next iteration.

Just out of curiosity: your recipe mentions "Hallertauer" hops, but which variety is it? The Hallertau is a large hop growing region in Bavaria, and so you'd have hops labeled as e.g. "Hallertauer Hersbrucker" (meaning hops of variety "Hersbrucker" grown in the Hallertau), but I don't think any variety is actually called "Hallertauer" ... ? (The name of the variety "Hersbrucker" also derives from the name of a region in Franconia, but still it is no geographical designation: Hersbrucker from Hersbruck is called "Hersbrucker Hersbrucker", which is silly enough to make you want to order it.

Thanks for your comment

Regarding the Hallertau confusion: Yes you are correct. I was set on the "Hallertau Perle" hop, unless you would recommend another kind, but for some reason I was unable to find a preset for that in the brewfather app... I did however find this preset called just "Hallertauer". I personally don't know what it is supposed to represent...

 

[ebbelwoi]

If it's written as just Hallertauer, it generally refers to Hallertauer Mittelfrüh.

 

[Lefou]

Thanks for your input! I will look into the warm fermenting w34/70... I am unfamiliar with "Acidulated malt". How much would you recommend, given I do not know the ph of my water nor my mash...

Four to six ounces per 5 to 5.25 gallon batch.
A water pH of 8 is typical with city water because it is high enough to prevent pipe corrosion. I don't use my city water due to chlorine/chloramine, so I purchase "soft" bottled spring water at the store. For pale or lighter-colored beers I typically add about 2.5tsp CaCl and up to approximately 2.5tsp CaSO4 per 5 gallons to the mash water for "balanced" to "hoppy-style" beers. Calcium is good for the yeast and helps adjust mash pH. The SO4- ions will add a bit of flavor for your hopping.

 

[Lefou]

I would use S-189. Works great at any temperature, especially warm.

I agree.
S-189 is a well-known dry lager strain that shouldn't leave as many esters as S-05. A warm and fast ferment with S-05 might give you some fruity essence you wouldn't want in a pseudo-lager. S-05 makes a darned great summer wheat ale, though!

 

[ebbelwoi]

I would use S-189. Works great at any temperature, especially warm.

Not the OP, but do you prefer S-189 over w34/70? And why?

I've got a pilsner coming up, and I've got both on hand. Temp control isn't an issue.

 

[dmtaylor]

Not the OP, but do you prefer S-189 over w34/70? And why?

I've got a pilsner coming up, and I've got both on hand. Temp control isn't an issue.

I haven’t done a side by side comparison yet. Both should be very good.

 

[rallenhall]

My experience with Lutra at 20C/68F basement temperatures is that fermentation and clearing takes as long as other yeasts, so I see no clear advantage at the low end of it's recommended range. Before I had temperature control I'd use the wet tee-shirt and fan technique with WY2124 when summer basement temps were in the low 70'sF and get acceptable lagers even though I doubt that my set-up controlled the fermentation temperature all that well.

 

[Steveruch]

These are from a Zymurgy piece I did in 2016.

 

[bwible]

Thanks for your input! I will look into the warm fermenting w34/70... I am unfamiliar with "Acidulated malt". How much would you recommend, given I do not know the ph of my water nor my mash...

I’ve been planning a pseudo lager warm fermented with 34/70 - keeps getting put off. I know members of my club have done it with great results. Around 68 degrees. I did a triangle test with one of them and a real lager and I did not pick the odd one out.

Most sources say don’t use more than 3% of the grist acid malt. It’s to adjust the mash ph. I use it in my 3 gallon batches. Usually 2-2.5 oz. Since you have 100% pilsener malt and no dark grains I would suggest starting at 2.5% if you’re using municipal water. If you’re using bottled water or well water its more of a guess what the starting water ph is if you don’t know it.

 

[yamhill]

I would use S-189. Works great at any temperature, especially warm.

I'm intrigued by this comment, and don't want to drift too far from the original intent, but hopefully I'm staying on point here. I see Fermentis recommend 12-15C for S-189. What temperatures have you used, and what have flavor effects (if any) have you observed?

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm intrigued by this comment, and don't want to drift too far from the original intent, but hopefully I'm staying on point here. I see Fermentis recommend 12-15C for S-189. What temperatures have you used, and what have flavor effects (if any) have you observed?

About 68 F. If there's any esters at all, it's very minimal and only detectable when the beer warms up. Nice thing about using this yeast warm is how fast it ferments, and with zero diacetyl. I had diacetyl problems with it at 50 F, which are gone when using at 68 F.

 

[csantoni]

About 68 F. If there's any esters at all, it's very minimal and only detectable when the beer warms up. Nice thing about using this yeast warm is how fast it ferments, and with zero diacetyl. I had diacetyl problems with it at 50 F, which are gone when using at 68 F.

I had the same experience with S-189 in my Oktoberfest that I just kegged. It hit FG in about 4 days but took another 10 to burn off the diacetyl. I fermented at 55F and kept ramping up the temp in an effort to get rid of the diacetyl. I wound up at 70F by the end. Next time I'll definitely ferment warmer with this yeast.

 

[BeerAndTele]

Aaah, but you are saying lutra would be preferrable to US-05 due to its other characteristics, rather than its often shorter (during warm conditions) fermentation time? (In the case of a lager) Interesting... BTW, what is the difference between Lutra Kveik vs some other Kveik yeast? I have personally used Mangrove Jack's M12 Kveik yeast twice with great success. Would that do the job, though not named "Lutra"?

Lutra supposedly has a cleaner profile, while other kveik strains such as Voss tend to produce esters that add orangey characteristics ... might be nice for a juicy NEIPA, but not for a pilsner, IMO. I was on the sidelines for a long time with Kveik strains - I'm admittedly a bit skeptical - but decided to damn the torpedoes and try it this year with a small batch using Lutra - a pseudo-Oktoberfest ... or a Mocktoberfest, if you will. I'll share my experiences over in the Lutra thread once it's ready.