Only StarSan for cleaning?

[kh54s10]

And once again that depends on how you store it. If it were stored in a sterile environment then it should still be sterile unless there was something there that had recontaminated it. In my case the keg has been fully dried upside down and then sealed. Once that happens nothing can get in and nothing can get out and bacteria needs moisture to survive....

OK. Your sealed or upside down container. But I doubt anyone brews in a clean room where a spoon would stay sanitized....

 

[coonmanx]

Pasteur's experiment way back when demonstrated that organisms don't just self generate out of thin air.

 

[coonmanx]

OK. Your sealed or upside down container. But I doubt anyone brews in a clean room where a spoon would stay sanitized....

And why would anyone stick a spoon into finished beer? They wouldn't. They would use a spoon in a brew kettle while boiling. If you stick an unsanitized spoon into beer at any point when it is in the fermenter then you should not be brewing....

 

[coonmanx]

I think I will bow out of this discussion now because enough has already been said and we are beating a dead horse. I even said that I might use some cleaner next time I scrub down the keg. But I won't be getting paranoid worrying about the "what ifs". Too many of them in life and I only have so many days left. If you walk outside tomorrow you could get hit by a car. But I bet you will still walk outside tomorrow. Unless of course you are self quarantining....

 

[IslandLizard]

@coonmanx, when you mention using "StarSan," are you using the Five Stars brand StarSan or the Phosphoric Acid Cleaner from HomeDepot you linked to earlier?

 

[kh54s10]

And why would anyone stick a spoon into finished beer? They wouldn't. They would use a spoon in a brew kettle while boiling. If you stick an unsanitized spoon into beer at any point when it is in the fermenter then you should not be brewing....

Really??? I can think of a couple right off the top of my head. Stirring the wort while it is cooling to make an IC more effective. Stirring a beer in a bottling bucket to more thoroughly mix a priming solution.

You ARE right that you shouldn't be putting an unsanitized spoon in beer - but S#!t happens. Not a spoon but I dropped the package of yeast into my fermenter once and picked it out as carefully as I could with my unsanitized hand. It did not get infected, but I would not say that is an OK practice.

 

[coonmanx]

@coonmanx, when you mention using "StarSan," are you using the Five Stars brand StarSan or the Phosphoric Acid Cleaner from HomeDepot you linked to earlier?

StarSan. I only linked to the other one because I was Googling the cleaning properties of phosphoric acid. And like I said I used StarSan to permanently remove black mildew on the ceiling above the shower when bleach had previously failed.

 

[coonmanx]

Really??? I can think of a couple right off the top of my head. Stirring the wort while it is cooling to make an IC more effective. Stirring a beer in a bottling bucket to more thoroughly mix a priming solution.

You ARE right that you shouldn't be putting an unsanitized spoon in beer - but S#!t happens. Not a spoon but I dropped the package of yeast into my fermenter once and picked it out as carefully as I could with my unsanitized hand. It did not get infected, but I would not say that is an OK practice.

I did not say "sanitized spoon". I clearly said "unsanitized spoon" and sh*t does not happen unless you are not careful. But that is not what we are talking about and you know it.

LOL. It tried to change the word sh*t to poopy. How ridiculous is that?

 

[coonmanx]

Also nobody here has produced a single bit of evidence that bacteria can survive on a dry surface for more than a few days. If you have that evidence then post it up for all to see. Just saying. It's easy to make a claim but harder to actually back it up.

 

[IslandLizard]

I did not say "sanitized spoon". I clearly said "unsanitized spoon" and sh*t does not happen unless you are not careful. But that is not what we are talking about and you know it.

LOL. It tried to change the word sh*t to poopy. How ridiculous is that?

We try to keep our forums clean, but can't really sanitize it or we would.

We do flush out incessant potty mouths and abusive members, and those who question moderation actions.
Keep that in mind!

 

[Nate R]

Man oh man... i should just keep my darn mouth shut... but...
I know a lot brewers argue PBW brand vs. other options for costs.
I would think undiluted starsan is even more expensive than PBW right?
I would think PBW or similar then diluted star san would save a good deal of money. But not time- it is an extra step.
Please don't anyone take this personally!!

Now back to finding some toilet paper....

 

[IslandLizard]

I know a lot brewers argue PBW brand vs. other options for costs.
I would think undiluted starsan is even more expensive than PBW right?
I would think PBW or similar then diluted star san would save a good deal of money.

A tablespoon of Washing Soda, Oxiclean, or PBW weighs around 22-24 grams depending on how much moisture it absorbed, so about 20 tablespoons per pound.

Washing Soda, (generic) Oxiclean are indeed relatively cheap, around $1-2 a pound.
Around $0.05-0.10 per tablespoon (average use).

Homemade PBW (70% Oxiclean/30% Metasilicate) runs anywhere between $2-4 a pound. All depending on source, brand, and mixture used of course.
Around $0.10-0.20 per tablespoon (average use).

Brand name PBW runs you $4-16 a pound, depending on size and store you buy from. At our group grain buy the (real) Five Stars PBW in 50# buckets runs us a tad under $4 a pound.
Around $0.20-0.80 per tablespoon (average use).

Starsan runs anywhere between $0.50 (gallon jug) and $2.00 (4 oz bottle) an ounce depending on container size and place you buy it at.

 

[Nate R]

Is there "black market" PBW? I snagged a replacment 4# tub from The amqmazon for about what an online store woild charge, but free prime shipping.

The label is just a touch different than my last bucket. Maybe a new printer, but... i dunno.

Anyone heard of this??

 

[IslandLizard]

Is there "black market" PBW? I snagged a replacment 4# tub from The amqmazon for about what an online store woild charge, but free prime shipping.

The label is just a touch different than my last bucket. Maybe a new printer, but... i dunno.

Anyone heard of this??

Can you post a picture of that container/label? What's the quality of the label? Does it look like a "photocopy?"

 

[kh54s10]

Also nobody here has produced a single bit of evidence that bacteria can survive on a dry surface for more than a few days. If you have that evidence then post it up for all to see. Just saying. It's easy to make a claim but harder to actually back it up.

So you believe that a dry surface will only get bacteria on it once?? And then it will die and there will be no more??

 

[fendersrule]

A couple of things that have not been mentioned here. First is the fact that when I use the StarSan for clening the keg and removing debris I have my arm inside the keg and I am using a green scrubbie and physically removing debris by scrubbing. The StarSan is used full stregth. I have no idea how fendersrule was doing it or if he was in any way using a similar method to the way I am doing things. That matters.

Dude, I was scrubbing only with star san, just like you were. Like, spending a good 10 minutes with a sponge and/or a carboy brush, for each vessel I tried to "clean". Star San does not clean! Just because something "looks" clean doesn't mean it's clean. PBW completely removes things on the microscopic level that you don't see! If you read my post I got away with doing that for the first few brews, but it will catch up with you after you keep reusing the same vessel that hasn't got a good, warm, oxygen-cleaner soak!

Secondly, it is just as important how the keg is handled once all of the cleaning, sanitizing and rinsing has been completed. How is the keg dried and then stored?

I honestly don't fret about storage. I just throw all PBW cleaned and rinsed (but not sanitized) things in my closet. When it's time for brew day, I will re-clean it again with PBW (usually not a soak this time, but a simple wipe down followed by a hot water rinse) and then fill it all with Star San and go about my brew day. I basically clean things twice, and I don't have any problem doing that because it assures I will not have infections.

The only problem with what you're doing is you're not really "cleaning". You're going through the motions of "cleaning", but you are not using a cleaner to clean.

The fact that you are "scrubbing" is proof of this. With PBW, there is no "scrubbing", only "wiping". That tells you it's a cleaner right away.

 

[kh54s10]

And why would anyone stick a spoon into finished beer? They wouldn't. They would use a spoon in a brew kettle while boiling. If you stick an unsanitized spoon into beer at any point when it is in the fermenter then you should not be brewing....

I was noting that you do use tools in the beer AFTER the boil.

 

[RPh_Guy]

And second, bacteria needs moisture to survive. The keg being completely dry prevents bacteria from existing in the keg as it can not live on a dry surface for any amount of time. That is the science.

Also nobody here has produced a single bit of evidence that bacteria can survive on a dry surface for more than a few days. If you have that evidence then post it up for all to see. Just saying. It's easy to make a claim but harder to actually back it up.

I'm sorry you haven't heard of dry yeast cultures, dry bacteria cultures, probiotic pills, or kveik.
Dry microbes can be viable for months or years.

That's the science.

 

[kh54s10]

Exactly. And bacteria is everywhere.

Also nobody here has produced a single bit of evidence that bacteria can survive on a dry surface for more than a few days. If you have that evidence then post it up for all to see. Just saying. It's easy to make a claim but harder to actually back it up.

So you believe that a dry surface will only get bacteria on it once?? And then it will die and there will be no more??

Just because it is dry and the initial bacteria on it might die, doesn't mean that there is no live bacteria present. What does die will be constantly replaced.

Yes your upside down or sealed keg is not going to be contaminated on the inside. But anything that is not sealed will not stay sanitary.

 

[ncbrewer]

I don't sweat the small stuff. In Russian roulette someone could get their head blown off. If something happened to one of my batches I might lose 5 gallons of beer and have to start over.

This might be the key to the disagreement. If you're not too worried about a contaminated batch, you can be more laid back. I had a contamination once. It lasted through some future batches as I tried various cleaning/sanitizing methods. I hated life for several months. So to me, life is more enjoyable if I sweat the small stuff and take every precaution possible to keep things clean and sanitized.

 

[fendersrule]

I almost quit brewing before I used realized the power of PBW.

 

[kh54s10]

Sweat the small stuff in reason. There was a video series by a guy who used a mask, gloves and smeared something on his arms to keep the germs away.....

 

[ncbrewer]

Sweat the small stuff in reason. There was a video series by a guy who used a mask, gloves and smeared something on his arms to keep the germs away.....

I think I saw that video. It was very entertaining.

 

[coonmanx]

Yes your upside down or sealed keg is not going to be contaminated on the inside.

 

[coonmanx]

I transfered my Strawberry ESB from primary to secondary last week. The glass carboy I used for secondary had been previously cleaned and sterilized before getting sealed. I wiped off the outside of it with some sanitizing solution but did nothing else before the transfer. I did not resanitize. You can see a photo of it in the thread about putting fruit puree into the primary. It looks great. Now I just have to figure out what to do with 5 gallons of beer when I can't get together with a large group of people.... It may be a while before it gets into the keg.

 

[coonmanx]

I was noting that you do use tools in the beer AFTER the boil.

And I clearly said "an unsanitized spoon" which you totally ignored in your subsequent post....

 

[coonmanx]

Next time I clean out the keg I will use some PBW or equivalent when I do it. At least then some here can rest easy at night. I have been pretty much ignoring this thread since I have better things to do right now in the midst of a pandemic....

 

[fendersrule]

The glass carboy I used for secondary had been previously cleaned and sterilized before getting sealed.

How was it cleaned?

 

[coonmanx]

How was it cleaned?

Generic OxiClean as I said in a previous post. Don't worry, it's under control. LOL.

 

[RPh_Guy]

@coonmanx it's not about you and your practices.

This is the beginners brewing subforum. We want any newbies reading this to understand that proper cleaning is a necessary step in the brewing process.