Once you go all-grain, do you ever go back?

[nymtber]

I will likely never go AG because of one thing: time. Probably will do some partial mashes, but I don't have time or space for AG. Now, if my brother lived closer (hes an hour away but still hes busy and married) then yes we would probably get AG set up, but for solo brewing? Extract or partial mash it is.

I might see if the mini-fridge we have in the barn will fit a carboy with airlock. If it can, I will be buying a fridge controller I want to make a doppelbock...someday. And since we heat with wood stove, our house temperatures in winter fluctuate. Or I might look for a chest freezer on craigslist, but I don't know where I would put it.

 

[weirdboy]

There is basically no difference, time-wise, between doing PM and AG. You have larger volumes of water & grain but other than that it's basically the same process. Except you aren't also adding extract when you do AG.

 

[Indyking]

No offense to the extract brewers out there because by no means their limitations to change to AG should prevent them to be creative and brew great beers; But…

There is always a but... right?

If you have the equipment, why would anyone ever brew an extract beer, except for lack of time? Because a good brewer must use the ingredients available? Why would you even buy extract aside for a small portion for starters to begin with?

Last year, I did brew some extract because of short time. The beer was great nonetheless! It does take considerable more time to brew AG compared to extract. It's a fact.

 

[Great_Neck_Brewer]

Once you have a child, you'll do extracts for awhile. Even some no boils

 

[FromZwolle]

Once you have a child, you'll do extracts for awhile. Even some no boils

once you hava a child you learn to multitask better.

 

[millsware]

I think if I had a more robust system I would probably not fall back on extract so much, but I still have to pull out tons of packed away equipment and there's lots of moving things around. It usually adds (time of the mash - whatever time I would steep) + sparge + lautering + cleaning all the mash equipment. It is usually at least 2hrs extra. I am making plans for a nice brew stand now though and I doubt I'll extract very much after that.

As for cost, talking about kits is not a good comparison. Kits can be somewhat expensive, but we're just talking about replacing grain with DME here. To replace grain with extract at the prices I pay is...

1# DME @ $3.10 = $3.10 which replaces roughly 2# pale @ $0.99 = $1.98

So you are adding $1.12 per .07 gravity points or maybe $8 for a 6 gallon brew. When I go to happy hour I spend at least twice that!

Thank you. I don't understand people who say they can do an all-grain batch for 15$ but an extract batch for 50$. At my LHBS a 6 lb. jug of lme is 19$ and a ten lb. sack of two-row is 14$. That's only a difference of about 5$, assuming yeast, hops, and specialty grains are the same.

 

[weirdboy]

No offense to the extract brewers out there because by no means their limitations to change to AG should prevent them to be creative and brew great beers; But…

There is always a but... right?

If you have the equipment, why would anyone ever brew an extract beer, except for lack of time? Because a good brewer must use the ingredients available? Why would you even buy extract aside for a small portion for starters to begin with?

Last year, I did brew some extract because of short time. The beer was great nonetheless! It does take considerable more time to brew AG compared to extract. It's a fact.

Because sometimes I don't want to mess around with all the extra work that goes along with an AG batch. Throwing together an extract batch is very easy and straightforward, and very hard to screw up. I can get pretty damn drunk and still pull off a great tasting extract beer. Or, I can get pretty drunk and overshoot my mash temps, forget to heat my sparge water, etc.

 

[weirdboy]

I don't understand people who say they can do an all-grain batch for 15$ but an extract batch for 50$. At my LHBS a 6 lb. jug of lme is 19$ and a ten lb. sack of two-row is 14$. That's only a difference of about 5$,

Both you and the guy you quoted are paying too much for grain. My grain cost me $0.69/lb. DME costs me over twice as much as 2-row. I am not sure about LME...I bought some pilsner LME a month or two ago but cannot remember how much it was, although I know it cost a lot more than the pilsner malt I bought with it. But it was a Belgian quad and I ran out of room in my MLT.




In fact I think it would be more accurate to say for me that there isn't a reason to go back to PM from AG unless you have logistical constraints like a huge OG that won't fit in your mash tun. Extract at least makes sense from a convenience standpoint. PM is just as much work as AG and with no real benefits IMO.

 

[Indyking]

I think if I had a more robust system I would probably not fall back on extract so much, but I still have to pull out tons of packed away equipment and there's lots of moving things around. It usually adds (time of the mash - whatever time I would steep) + sparge + lautering + cleaning all the mash equipment. It is usually at least 2hrs extra. I am making plans for a nice brew stand now though and I doubt I'll extract very much after that.

As for cost, talking about kits is not a good comparison. Kits can be somewhat expensive, but we're just talking about replacing grain with DME here. To replace grain with extract at the prices I pay is...

1# DME @ $3.10 = $3.10 which replaces roughly 2# pale @ $0.99 = $1.98

So you are adding $1.12 per .07 gravity points or maybe $8 for a 6 gallon brew. When I go to happy hour I spend at least twice that!

Because sometimes I don't want to mess around with all the extra work that goes along with an AG batch. Throwing together an extract batch is very easy and straightforward, and very hard to screw up. I can get pretty damn drunk and still pull off a great tasting extract beer. Or, I can get pretty drunk and overshoot my mash temps, forget to heat my sparge water, etc.

The cost difference all depends on how efficient you can get and where you shop for supplies.

Let's do my example of math.

I only have a few weekends available to brew, so I shop for 3-4 batches at once. Base grains can often be bought much cheaper in bulks in the major online folks and that's what I do. Supplies for 3-4 AG batches for me, depending on SGs of each beer varies from 90-110 bucks, average 100. I have quoted 3-4 batches with extract before in the same shops I used too and it has never been bellow 140-160, so averaging 150. That's a 50% difference and very significant IMHO. In a long run, that’s a lot.

That’s why I encourage anyone who has time and the patience to go AG. Yes, there is the indicial investment but it pays for itself. Besides, I find it to be a lot more fun and it gives a lot more opportunities to be creative.

 

[FromZwolle]

I encourage brewers to go with the method that's the most fun for them. if you love extract brewing, go for it. If you find that mashing/sparging entertaining, jump into all grain. Pinch pennies where you can, but if it's not about having fun, just go buy some beer.

 

[Indyking]

I encourage brewers to go with the method that's the most fun for them. if you love extract brewing, go for it. If you find that mashing/sparging entertaining, jump into all grain. Pinch pennies where you can, but if it's not about having fun, just go buy some beer.

Yep, that's true. I know some people could never handle all the extra labor involved in AG brewing, even if they had plenty of time for it. I personally hate when I'm forced to do extract because of time constraints. It always seems like just cooking for me rather than brewing. It's very personal of course.

But, if cost is the major concern, you can't go wrong with AG.

 

[Rev2010]

I personally hate when I'm forced to do extract because of time constraints. It always seems like just cooking for me rather than brewing. It's very personal of course.

I'm sorry, but I can never get this type of comment. It's not like you're growing and, more importantly, malting your own grains or growing your own hops. AG brewing just has more steps, and yes more options of course, but all in all you're still producing beer, and hopefully great beer.

I can understand this type of thinking when we're talking 100% pre-done kits like pre-hopped canned kits where you buy the whole thing and use exactly what they include (ie. kit & kilo). THAT is much more like baking a cake from a box where you just add water. But for me, I design my own extract recipes with several mixes of ingredients (extracts, grains, adjuncts, etc) and various hops for bittering, flavoring, and aroma. So when I do my recipes it's nowhere near dumping a box of powder and just adding water.

Not saying those were your words, and not in any way arguing AG vs. Extract. Just saying I can't get that comment and I feel it's a bit narrow to think of it in such an over simplified way.


Rev.

 

[JohnTheBrewist]

Very good points, Rev. I know when I think extract, the first thing that comes to mind is a kit. I've done AG for so long, that it hasn't occured to me to formulate extract recipes. This thread has almost convinced me to try it.

 

[Ravenshead]

I like AG for the same reasons many list, it feels more like brewing. I'll probably never do another full production extract brew.

However, I still love using extracts for small batch experiments. That way I spend more time playing with the experiment instead of worrying about the process.

 

[nigel31]

I agree 100%: do what's most fun/cost effective/convenient for you. I wasn't looking to do a comparison--a what's "better"--with my post. Just wondering how many people do both and the reasons.

That said, if time's a problem and you'd still like to do all-grain, check into no-sparge AG brewing. I learned a lot here:
http://www.classiccitybrew.com/homebrew.html

With this method, I did a 3-gallon brew (the peanut-butter/chocolate stout in another post), all-grain, and from weighing and milling grains to the beer in the carboy with the airlock on it, it took less than 6 hours. That's measuring/milling grains, mashing, brewing, sanitizing things, chilling wort, racking (not pouring) into the carboy, and aerating (aquarium pump) for over half an hour, pitching my starter, and putting the airlock on it. And a 5-gallon batch wouldn't have taken much longer (only the crushing of the grains would've taken more time).

Something to think about; food for thought, perhaps. And the only additional gear I use from when I did extracts is a 5-gallon Rubbermaid cooler with a stainless steel bulkhead and a bazooka screen; oh yeah, and a few feet of high-temp tubing to drain the wort into the pot. The Brewtopia page doesn't cover the use of these, but it's easy enough to figure out.

Whatever works for you, just brew! <cheers>

 

[Indyking]

I'm sorry, but I can never get this type of comment. It's not like you're growing and, more importantly, malting your own grains or growing your own hops. AG brewing just has more steps, and yes more options of course, but all in all you're still producing beer, and hopefully great beer.

I can understand this type of thinking when we're talking 100% pre-done kits like pre-hopped canned kits where you buy the whole thing and use exactly what they include (ie. kit & kilo). THAT is much more like baking a cake from a box where you just add water. But for me, I design my own extract recipes with several mixes of ingredients (extracts, grains, adjuncts, etc) and various hops for bittering, flavoring, and aroma. So when I do my recipes it's nowhere near dumping a box of powder and just adding water.

Not saying those were your words, and not in any way arguing AG vs. Extract. Just saying I can't get that comment and I feel it's a bit narrow to think of it in such an over simplified way.


Rev.

What can I say if that is exactly how I feel when I brew extract? Not expecting anyone to feel the same of course, but nobody can change what I feel about it either...

 

[Golddiggie]

nigel31, how much less than 6 hours? Are you talking about a few minutes (so you feel better saying it was less) or are we talking about 5 hours or less? If it took you closer to 6 hours, then that's F'ed up... I can do a 5 gallon batch, with a 90 minute mash, single batch sparge, in under 5 hours. It was closer to 4-1/2 hours, but I'll still call it under 5... That's also with my old IC (20' of 3/8" OD copper) for chilling and simply running the wort to the carboy via the ball valve in the kettle. I'm also talking about pitching the yeast, having the airlock in, and putting it where it's going to ferment.

I'll be finishing up my new IC tomorrow, before using it in it's first batch... I went with 50' of 3/8" OD copper this time. I'm pretty sure the first one was with thinner sidewalls, since this one was a lot harder to bend. I just need to get some copper wire to hold it as I want it (to get it to fit in ~5 gallons of wort better) in my 32qt kettle before I use it for the first time.

Maybe you're losing time by using a stove, where I'm using a propane burner... Still, if I was to boil for a 3 gallon batch on my stove, I suspect that I could be done in under 5 hours...

 

[bovineblitz]

The only extract batch I've done since switching over was an AHS 20th. I can't imagine I'd be inclined to do another one unless a deal like that surfaces once again. It's really a price thing for me, plus I don't mind the extra time involved in mashing.

 

[EarthBound]

I love AG brewing so much that I've built so much and will continue to build so much more. Extract can taste just as good and everything, but I'm way too interested in the big picture of homebrewing to ever go back to extract. I started with extract, perfected it, and moved on to a more articulated way of homebrewing, and I'm having the time of my life doing it!

 

[nigel31]

@Golddiggie: Well, it was actually 5:40, but that also included a) a stovetop boil and b) hanging out with a friend while brewing--not nearly as diligently as I would've been had it only been me in the kitchen. I was distracted, and doing a couple things at once (including imbibing and chillin'), so for me, from start to finish, it wasn't bad at all.

Had I clocked only activity, it would've been closer to 4 or 4.5 hours, I'd guess. The stove did take a little while to get up to boiling, yes, and that's time spent/wasted right there. Probably close to half an hour (thin-walled, SS 5-gallon pot as well).

My main point was that no-sparge brewing has many advantages and few disadvantages (for my purposes). If it means I use 20% more grain (at $2 a lb.) and don't have to worry about sparge-water temps and methodical sparging, then it's more than worth it. And, most importantly, the beers are coming out my best yet.