Once you go all-grain, do you ever go back?

[passedpawn]

I'll never brew another extract. I just like the AG process too much to not do it. If I don't have time to do an AG, I'd just buy beer I guess (I've always made the time tho!)

... and ...

Please, please, can we not turn this into yet another extract vs. AG (or why they are equal) thread. Aren't we all a little bored of those?

 

[drkaeppel]

My AG batches have been very good so far but my extract brews weren't necessarily any worse. I like having the added control with AG and lower cost. More than anything I just wanted more of a challenge since AG is a bit more involved than extract brews. I just have more fun with it.

As others have said, I will most likely do an occasional extract brew if I am pressed for time or if my pipeline gets too low.

 

[iaefebs]

I can't say I never will go back to extract. I was just never there long enough to really learn the process. It's been over 5 years since I made a extract. I'm much more comfortable with AG. However, I've been thinking about learning the process so I know what the extract guy's are talking about.

 

[JohnTheBrewist]

I haven't made an extract batch since my first one 20 years ago. Don't know why really, it just hasn't occurred to me to do that. I initially got into brewing to save money while getting to drink good beer, so part of it is I just can't see paying kit costs.

 

[jeffjm]

I did my first extract brew in about ten years a couple of months ago. I wanted to do a couple of side-by-side one-gallon batches with different hopping schedules as an experiment, and extract made that very easy. No way was I going to devote the time two AG batches would have taken for only two gallons. If it weren't for the small-batch thing, I wouldn't have wanted to give up the control you get with AG.

I've drunk a couple of those beers now, and I was very pleasantly surprised by how well they turned out. After that experience, and listening to Jamil's show on kit beers a while ago, I'm tempted to find an interesting kit and see how it turns out. Sure, it's more money, but it's also half the time, too.

 

[Burgs]

I actually thought that I would go back and forth and do extract batches every now and then - but I haven't thought about it seriously since switching over.

 

[SoonerDoc]

Please, please, can we not turn this into yet another extract vs. AG (or why they are equal) thread. Aren't we all a little bored of those?

But do you brew it in an aluminum or stainless steel pot?

 

[bruin_ale]

never gone back.. 1 extract batch then 1 partial mash and countless all-grain batches since.

 

[Golddiggie]

But do you brew it in an aluminum or stainless steel pot?

Oh SNAP!! You've gone and one it now Hoss...

Lets see, I'm a former BIAB brewer, who used SS pots initially, but then went to an aluminum pot, which I later converted into a kettle, and also moved over to using a cooler converted into a mash tun... What does that make me? Besides a home brewer that is...

 

[rjwhite41]

A couple of weeks ago I would have said no I would never go back. But last week I brewed my first extract batch in 13 years. Of course, the batch was really just made to try and get a yeast cake for another beer and I had to do it after work on a Friday night and I had another brew coming up on Sunday. But all that being said, yes I did in fact go back to extract at least once (don't see it happening again anytime soon) since switching to all grain.

 

[DubBrew]

I've been brewing for about 18 months, all grain for a year and since I've changed to all grain I've done one extract. I did it because I wanted to have a shorter brew day and I was able to new after work on a week night. It was much easier, quicker, and relaxing. I enjoyed it but will stick mostly with all grain because I enjoy the process more. I'm sure I'll do the occasional extract batch every now and again.

 

[Shooter]

I have two kids and plenty of other things going on. So, I do whatever I've got time for.

 

[duckmanco]

i'd love to get my hands on some cheap dme for a few quick, easy batches i could whip up when i don't have 5 hrs to brew. It's only the high price of extract thats stopping me, and the fact that i have around 250# of various grains in stock.

This is largely why I am an extract brewer still, that and I mainly brew IPA's, which tend to be comprised of simple malt bills. My favorite IPA malt bill? My LHBS's bulk light LME and gasp.... corn sugar... not the first steeping grain in that bill, and it ferments out so crisp and dry the hops explode through. But that approach works for me because I like my IPA's super dry and crisp.

Back to the point, what is your time worth? I hear AG brewers say its half the cost of extract brewing, but it seems to be twice or more the time spent for that savings. I'm not knocking it whatsoever, but for me, in my situation, my time on my days off needs to be spent first and foremost BREWING, but also other stuff I can't not do, so 2 hours or so for extract batches works for me. One day I'll cross over, but I'm good right now.

 

[Golddiggie]

IMO, going all grain, when done smart, only adds your mash time to the length of the batch time. So if you mash for an hour, you're only looking at that much more time spent brewing.

Also, not sure where you're getting the cost difference from, but I can typically brew a 5 gallon batch for 1/3-1/4 the cost of going with extracts. Of course, I'm also washing/harvesting my yeast, but I'm just talking about the other ingredients here. My extract batches were in the area of $45-$55 per kit, PLUS more to go with liquid yeast. So, in the area of $50-$60 a batch for lower OG/ABV brews than I can make for $10-$15 via all grain...

It really is more of a personal preference though. As others have stated, you can make great, or crappy, batches using either set of ingredients/processes. It's more up to the brewer making the batch. But, I have noticed that I'm really liking the flavors I get from all grain batches. I'm not long from being able to drink batches where I crushed the grains the same day (within an hour of mashing) as I brewed them.

Personally, I've always enjoyed cooking from scratch. I see all grain brewing as just an extension of that mind set. I also don't punch a clock when I'm brewing, or figure out how much my time is costing me when brewing. If you start going that, you start taking the fun out of it. It would be like talking with a hunter that goes out and shoots his own game, cleans it, butchers it, and then cooks it. Are you going to try and tell him that he should have just gone to the corner store and picked up a slab of beef instead?? I wouldn't.

 

[weirdboy]

IMO, going all grain, when done smart, only adds your mash time to the length of the batch time. So if you mash for an hour, you're only looking at that much more time spent brewing.

I am pretty sure there is some time involved sparging usually. Even if you are doing BIAB you still need to drain some of that wort from the grain bag.

 

[duckmanco]

Personally, I've always enjoyed cooking from scratch. I see all grain brewing as just an extension of that mind set. I also don't punch a clock when I'm brewing, or figure out how much my time is costing me when brewing. If you start going that, you start taking the fun out of it. It would be like talking with a hunter that goes out and shoots his own game, cleans it, butchers it, and then cooks it. Are you going to try and tell him that he should have just gone to the corner store and picked up a slab of beef instead?? I wouldn't.

Nah, I wouldn't either, thats missing the mark. I don't punch a clock either and I don't expect anyone else to equate time with money during a hobby, it was just a quick and dirty way to explain why I think extract can have a benefit. I however, am in a position to where the benefit of brewing quickly is worth the extra cost right now. When my free time changes (i.e. increases) then I'm sure I'll venture into AG. But for right now, I'm happy taking it slow and nailing down my process.

 

[djsethall]

I am pretty sure there is some time involved sparging usually. Even if you are doing BIAB you still need to drain some of that wort from the grain bag.

and waiting for frickin water to get hot. soon to be fixed:rockin:

 

[Golddiggie]

I am pretty sure there is some time involved sparging usually. Even if you are doing BIAB you still need to drain some of that wort from the grain bag.

Typically about the same amount of time as you would spend steeping grains... Also, if you're brewing all grain with something that heats water faster than a typical stove (like a propane burner) that more than evens the field. :rockin: With the propane burner, you can typically get a full batch boil (6-7.5 gallons for a 5 gallon batch) up to a boil in 15-20 minutes or less. I could never get more than 4 gallons of water to a boil, on my stove, in less than 30-45 minutes... Full batch boils easily took an hour. So if you want to do full boils, without a high output burner (or propane burner) you'll probably be spending the same amount of time as I would brewing all grain, if not more...

YMMV

BTW, I get my sparge water up to temp in ~10 minutes. I start it when I have 10-15 minutes left in the mash, and then it's more than ready... I'm typically sparging with 2.5-4 gallons of water, depending on the brew/batch...

I do think that knowing your hardware/gear is very important when it comes to any method of brewing. Don't use the first time you've changed a part of your process, or some key equipment to judge how it will impact the amount of time to brew a batch. Give it at least a couple of batches. Also realize how other conditions will impact your brew day. Such as brewing outside in the winter, spring, summer, and fall all will impact how long it takes to brew a batch.

 

[statseeker]

I think the next time I brew a wit that requires a ton of wheat flake or puffed rice or something like that I'll sub in rice or wheat DME to increase the gravity while being able to just mash the grain. Help with volume of grain and sparge process. No need to step mash. I'd rather save a little time and hassle in the mash process than go one way or the other. Maybe using extract where you can make your process more efficient will help make the brew day smoother. I'm all down with that.

 

[HiGravShawn]

I think if I had a more robust system I would probably not fall back on extract so much, but I still have to pull out tons of packed away equipment and there's lots of moving things around. It usually adds (time of the mash - whatever time I would steep) + sparge + lautering + cleaning all the mash equipment. It is usually at least 2hrs extra. I am making plans for a nice brew stand now though and I doubt I'll extract very much after that.

As for cost, talking about kits is not a good comparison. Kits can be somewhat expensive, but we're just talking about replacing grain with DME here. To replace grain with extract at the prices I pay is...

1# DME @ $3.10 = $3.10 which replaces roughly 2# pale @ $0.99 = $1.98

So you are adding $1.12 per .07 gravity points or maybe $8 for a 6 gallon brew. When I go to happy hour I spend at least twice that!

 

[nymtber]

I will likely never go AG because of one thing: time. Probably will do some partial mashes, but I don't have time or space for AG. Now, if my brother lived closer (hes an hour away but still hes busy and married) then yes we would probably get AG set up, but for solo brewing? Extract or partial mash it is.

I might see if the mini-fridge we have in the barn will fit a carboy with airlock. If it can, I will be buying a fridge controller I want to make a doppelbock...someday. And since we heat with wood stove, our house temperatures in winter fluctuate. Or I might look for a chest freezer on craigslist, but I don't know where I would put it.

 

[weirdboy]

There is basically no difference, time-wise, between doing PM and AG. You have larger volumes of water & grain but other than that it's basically the same process. Except you aren't also adding extract when you do AG.

 

[Indyking]

No offense to the extract brewers out there because by no means their limitations to change to AG should prevent them to be creative and brew great beers; But…

There is always a but... right?

If you have the equipment, why would anyone ever brew an extract beer, except for lack of time? Because a good brewer must use the ingredients available? Why would you even buy extract aside for a small portion for starters to begin with?

Last year, I did brew some extract because of short time. The beer was great nonetheless! It does take considerable more time to brew AG compared to extract. It's a fact.

 

[Great_Neck_Brewer]

Once you have a child, you'll do extracts for awhile. Even some no boils

 

[FromZwolle]

Once you have a child, you'll do extracts for awhile. Even some no boils

once you hava a child you learn to multitask better.

 

[millsware]

I think if I had a more robust system I would probably not fall back on extract so much, but I still have to pull out tons of packed away equipment and there's lots of moving things around. It usually adds (time of the mash - whatever time I would steep) + sparge + lautering + cleaning all the mash equipment. It is usually at least 2hrs extra. I am making plans for a nice brew stand now though and I doubt I'll extract very much after that.

As for cost, talking about kits is not a good comparison. Kits can be somewhat expensive, but we're just talking about replacing grain with DME here. To replace grain with extract at the prices I pay is...

1# DME @ $3.10 = $3.10 which replaces roughly 2# pale @ $0.99 = $1.98

So you are adding $1.12 per .07 gravity points or maybe $8 for a 6 gallon brew. When I go to happy hour I spend at least twice that!

Thank you. I don't understand people who say they can do an all-grain batch for 15$ but an extract batch for 50$. At my LHBS a 6 lb. jug of lme is 19$ and a ten lb. sack of two-row is 14$. That's only a difference of about 5$, assuming yeast, hops, and specialty grains are the same.

 

[weirdboy]

No offense to the extract brewers out there because by no means their limitations to change to AG should prevent them to be creative and brew great beers; But…

There is always a but... right?

If you have the equipment, why would anyone ever brew an extract beer, except for lack of time? Because a good brewer must use the ingredients available? Why would you even buy extract aside for a small portion for starters to begin with?

Last year, I did brew some extract because of short time. The beer was great nonetheless! It does take considerable more time to brew AG compared to extract. It's a fact.

Because sometimes I don't want to mess around with all the extra work that goes along with an AG batch. Throwing together an extract batch is very easy and straightforward, and very hard to screw up. I can get pretty damn drunk and still pull off a great tasting extract beer. Or, I can get pretty drunk and overshoot my mash temps, forget to heat my sparge water, etc.

 

[weirdboy]

I don't understand people who say they can do an all-grain batch for 15$ but an extract batch for 50$. At my LHBS a 6 lb. jug of lme is 19$ and a ten lb. sack of two-row is 14$. That's only a difference of about 5$,

Both you and the guy you quoted are paying too much for grain. My grain cost me $0.69/lb. DME costs me over twice as much as 2-row. I am not sure about LME...I bought some pilsner LME a month or two ago but cannot remember how much it was, although I know it cost a lot more than the pilsner malt I bought with it. But it was a Belgian quad and I ran out of room in my MLT.




In fact I think it would be more accurate to say for me that there isn't a reason to go back to PM from AG unless you have logistical constraints like a huge OG that won't fit in your mash tun. Extract at least makes sense from a convenience standpoint. PM is just as much work as AG and with no real benefits IMO.

 

[Indyking]

I think if I had a more robust system I would probably not fall back on extract so much, but I still have to pull out tons of packed away equipment and there's lots of moving things around. It usually adds (time of the mash - whatever time I would steep) + sparge + lautering + cleaning all the mash equipment. It is usually at least 2hrs extra. I am making plans for a nice brew stand now though and I doubt I'll extract very much after that.

As for cost, talking about kits is not a good comparison. Kits can be somewhat expensive, but we're just talking about replacing grain with DME here. To replace grain with extract at the prices I pay is...

1# DME @ $3.10 = $3.10 which replaces roughly 2# pale @ $0.99 = $1.98

So you are adding $1.12 per .07 gravity points or maybe $8 for a 6 gallon brew. When I go to happy hour I spend at least twice that!

Because sometimes I don't want to mess around with all the extra work that goes along with an AG batch. Throwing together an extract batch is very easy and straightforward, and very hard to screw up. I can get pretty damn drunk and still pull off a great tasting extract beer. Or, I can get pretty drunk and overshoot my mash temps, forget to heat my sparge water, etc.

The cost difference all depends on how efficient you can get and where you shop for supplies.

Let's do my example of math.

I only have a few weekends available to brew, so I shop for 3-4 batches at once. Base grains can often be bought much cheaper in bulks in the major online folks and that's what I do. Supplies for 3-4 AG batches for me, depending on SGs of each beer varies from 90-110 bucks, average 100. I have quoted 3-4 batches with extract before in the same shops I used too and it has never been bellow 140-160, so averaging 150. That's a 50% difference and very significant IMHO. In a long run, that’s a lot.

That’s why I encourage anyone who has time and the patience to go AG. Yes, there is the indicial investment but it pays for itself. Besides, I find it to be a lot more fun and it gives a lot more opportunities to be creative.

 

[FromZwolle]

I encourage brewers to go with the method that's the most fun for them. if you love extract brewing, go for it. If you find that mashing/sparging entertaining, jump into all grain. Pinch pennies where you can, but if it's not about having fun, just go buy some beer.

 

[Indyking]

I encourage brewers to go with the method that's the most fun for them. if you love extract brewing, go for it. If you find that mashing/sparging entertaining, jump into all grain. Pinch pennies where you can, but if it's not about having fun, just go buy some beer.

Yep, that's true. I know some people could never handle all the extra labor involved in AG brewing, even if they had plenty of time for it. I personally hate when I'm forced to do extract because of time constraints. It always seems like just cooking for me rather than brewing. It's very personal of course.

But, if cost is the major concern, you can't go wrong with AG.

 

[Rev2010]

I personally hate when I'm forced to do extract because of time constraints. It always seems like just cooking for me rather than brewing. It's very personal of course.

I'm sorry, but I can never get this type of comment. It's not like you're growing and, more importantly, malting your own grains or growing your own hops. AG brewing just has more steps, and yes more options of course, but all in all you're still producing beer, and hopefully great beer.

I can understand this type of thinking when we're talking 100% pre-done kits like pre-hopped canned kits where you buy the whole thing and use exactly what they include (ie. kit & kilo). THAT is much more like baking a cake from a box where you just add water. But for me, I design my own extract recipes with several mixes of ingredients (extracts, grains, adjuncts, etc) and various hops for bittering, flavoring, and aroma. So when I do my recipes it's nowhere near dumping a box of powder and just adding water.

Not saying those were your words, and not in any way arguing AG vs. Extract. Just saying I can't get that comment and I feel it's a bit narrow to think of it in such an over simplified way.


Rev.

 

[JohnTheBrewist]

Very good points, Rev. I know when I think extract, the first thing that comes to mind is a kit. I've done AG for so long, that it hasn't occured to me to formulate extract recipes. This thread has almost convinced me to try it.

 

[Ravenshead]

I like AG for the same reasons many list, it feels more like brewing. I'll probably never do another full production extract brew.

However, I still love using extracts for small batch experiments. That way I spend more time playing with the experiment instead of worrying about the process.

 

[nigel31]

I agree 100%: do what's most fun/cost effective/convenient for you. I wasn't looking to do a comparison--a what's "better"--with my post. Just wondering how many people do both and the reasons.

That said, if time's a problem and you'd still like to do all-grain, check into no-sparge AG brewing. I learned a lot here:
http://www.classiccitybrew.com/homebrew.html

With this method, I did a 3-gallon brew (the peanut-butter/chocolate stout in another post), all-grain, and from weighing and milling grains to the beer in the carboy with the airlock on it, it took less than 6 hours. That's measuring/milling grains, mashing, brewing, sanitizing things, chilling wort, racking (not pouring) into the carboy, and aerating (aquarium pump) for over half an hour, pitching my starter, and putting the airlock on it. And a 5-gallon batch wouldn't have taken much longer (only the crushing of the grains would've taken more time).

Something to think about; food for thought, perhaps. And the only additional gear I use from when I did extracts is a 5-gallon Rubbermaid cooler with a stainless steel bulkhead and a bazooka screen; oh yeah, and a few feet of high-temp tubing to drain the wort into the pot. The Brewtopia page doesn't cover the use of these, but it's easy enough to figure out.

Whatever works for you, just brew! <cheers>

 

[Indyking]

I'm sorry, but I can never get this type of comment. It's not like you're growing and, more importantly, malting your own grains or growing your own hops. AG brewing just has more steps, and yes more options of course, but all in all you're still producing beer, and hopefully great beer.

I can understand this type of thinking when we're talking 100% pre-done kits like pre-hopped canned kits where you buy the whole thing and use exactly what they include (ie. kit & kilo). THAT is much more like baking a cake from a box where you just add water. But for me, I design my own extract recipes with several mixes of ingredients (extracts, grains, adjuncts, etc) and various hops for bittering, flavoring, and aroma. So when I do my recipes it's nowhere near dumping a box of powder and just adding water.

Not saying those were your words, and not in any way arguing AG vs. Extract. Just saying I can't get that comment and I feel it's a bit narrow to think of it in such an over simplified way.


Rev.

What can I say if that is exactly how I feel when I brew extract? Not expecting anyone to feel the same of course, but nobody can change what I feel about it either...

 

[Golddiggie]

nigel31, how much less than 6 hours? Are you talking about a few minutes (so you feel better saying it was less) or are we talking about 5 hours or less? If it took you closer to 6 hours, then that's F'ed up... I can do a 5 gallon batch, with a 90 minute mash, single batch sparge, in under 5 hours. It was closer to 4-1/2 hours, but I'll still call it under 5... That's also with my old IC (20' of 3/8" OD copper) for chilling and simply running the wort to the carboy via the ball valve in the kettle. I'm also talking about pitching the yeast, having the airlock in, and putting it where it's going to ferment.

I'll be finishing up my new IC tomorrow, before using it in it's first batch... I went with 50' of 3/8" OD copper this time. I'm pretty sure the first one was with thinner sidewalls, since this one was a lot harder to bend. I just need to get some copper wire to hold it as I want it (to get it to fit in ~5 gallons of wort better) in my 32qt kettle before I use it for the first time.

Maybe you're losing time by using a stove, where I'm using a propane burner... Still, if I was to boil for a 3 gallon batch on my stove, I suspect that I could be done in under 5 hours...

 

[bovineblitz]

The only extract batch I've done since switching over was an AHS 20th. I can't imagine I'd be inclined to do another one unless a deal like that surfaces once again. It's really a price thing for me, plus I don't mind the extra time involved in mashing.

 

[EarthBound]

I love AG brewing so much that I've built so much and will continue to build so much more. Extract can taste just as good and everything, but I'm way too interested in the big picture of homebrewing to ever go back to extract. I started with extract, perfected it, and moved on to a more articulated way of homebrewing, and I'm having the time of my life doing it!

 

[nigel31]

@Golddiggie: Well, it was actually 5:40, but that also included a) a stovetop boil and b) hanging out with a friend while brewing--not nearly as diligently as I would've been had it only been me in the kitchen. I was distracted, and doing a couple things at once (including imbibing and chillin'), so for me, from start to finish, it wasn't bad at all.

Had I clocked only activity, it would've been closer to 4 or 4.5 hours, I'd guess. The stove did take a little while to get up to boiling, yes, and that's time spent/wasted right there. Probably close to half an hour (thin-walled, SS 5-gallon pot as well).

My main point was that no-sparge brewing has many advantages and few disadvantages (for my purposes). If it means I use 20% more grain (at $2 a lb.) and don't have to worry about sparge-water temps and methodical sparging, then it's more than worth it. And, most importantly, the beers are coming out my best yet.