Once acetobacter is a factor in a barrel, what's the remedy?

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
boswell

boswell

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
377
Reaction score
14
Location
philadelphia
I've got a funky barrel that has seen the dregs of a multitude of sources including a 'clean' pitch of Whitelabs Flander's Red blend. I bottled my Flander's Red this evening and it's definitely on the vinegar-y side. Is there a way to minimize this in future beers, less headspace, getting the beer in and out faster, or is the barrel only good for vinegar now?

It is a 5 gallon barrel, so I knew what I was getting into when I started this project. I've searched the internets, but most references to acetobacter and barrels is directed to winemakers and generally how to kill it off completely. I love slight vinegar tastes in a Flander's Red like Rodenbach or Cuvee de Jacobin's.
 
Acetobacter also thrives from oxygen exposure. A 5 gallon barrel has a lot of surface area. How long was it aged in this 5 gallon barrel? Also where did the barrel come from?
 
Once acetobacter is a factor
In a barrel, what is the remedy

The title of your thread that I just read
iambic pentameter, you rock sir
 
Didn't consider waxing the barrel, that should buy me more time keeping the beer in contact with the wood. I'm fairly certain there's acetobacter, this sour is definitely vinegar like, hopefully I caught it early enough.

What does one wax a barrel with? Anyone have something they've used before?
 
You could try and burn some sulphur inside the barrel. Nothing can live through that stuff. I know they sell them at grow shops here in CO. Make sure to do it outside!
 
I've read about sulphuring, but I've meticulously drank so many unique sours and pitches dregs, I'd hate to kill of all of my bugs. I guess I'll have to see what happens with the new beer, then decide. I just don't want a vinegar barrel yet.
 
Sulfur will control and preserve a clean wine barrel (never burn sulfur wicks in a fresh spirit barrel), but it won't kill all the microbes deep down in the wood.

Waxing ( http://www.funkfactorygeuzeria.com/2012/02/paraffin-waxing-barrel.html ) certainly could help, but I'd be inclined to get a new barrel.

Brett can make acetic acid (the same acid that vinegar makes), both require oxygen. The flavor doesn't really matter which is making it, just how much is made.
 
Getting a new barrel isn't an option, so if acetic acid is being produced, are my realistic options getting beer in, keeping headspace to a minimum and getting beer out relatively quickly? I realize the staves are thinner, therefore minimizing 02 is difficult. There is definitely Brett present, this barrel has seen its share of Orval dregs.
 
boswell said:
I've got a funky barrel that has seen the dregs of a multitude of sources including a 'clean' pitch of Whitelabs Flander's Red blend. I bottled my Flander's Red this evening and it's definitely on the vinegar-y side. Is there a way to minimize this in future beers, less headspace, getting the beer in and out faster, or is the barrel only good for vinegar now?

It is a 5 gallon barrel, so I knew what I was getting into when I started this project. I've searched the internets, but most references to acetobacter and barrels is directed to winemakers and generally how to kill it off completely. I love slight vinegar tastes in a Flander's Red like Rodenbach or Cuvee de Jacobin's.
Click to expand...

Blending an aged Flanders with a young Flanders is good way to control the level of acetic acid. This way the level of sourness can be designed to taste. Limiting oxygen to the aging barrel will also help slow the process somewhat. Using a glass carboy with a wood bung some say is just about right for slow aging the sour Reds.
 
CSI said:
Blending an aged Flanders with a young Flanders is good way to control the level of acetic acid. This way the level of sourness can be designed to taste. Limiting oxygen to the aging barrel will also help slow the process somewhat.
Click to expand...

Yup. Blend the acetic batches from your barrel with other batches for the desired amount of vinegar. Probably a little will go a long way...
 
Its just a 5 gallon barrel, so I would boil 5 gallons of water and dump it in there. Let the really hot water soak in there for a day. I might even repeat that process once or twice.

Also, yea, I'd recommend waxing the outside of the barrel. These small barrels have more surface area and thinner staves, which allows more oxygen to permeate into the beer and feed acetobacter.
 
boswell said:
Getting a new barrel isn't an option, so if acetic acid is being produced, are my realistic options getting beer in, keeping headspace to a minimum and getting beer out relatively quickly? I realize the staves are thinner, therefore minimizing 02 is difficult. There is definitely Brett present, this barrel has seen its share of Orval dregs.
Click to expand...

Eliminating O2 in the barrel as a kill method is a bit difficult and a 'partial' kill won't do much to selectively stop colonization. You might consider a re-char of the barrel but the wood will have to reach 150F on the outside to be effective. You can then re-inoculate the barrel to preference. Saturating with hot water is a good start. Charring the wet barrel will steam the rest of the bacteria through the wood that hot water may not reach. The bacterial colonies permeate the wood all the way through.
 
Lots of different replies. I am not interested in fully eliminating the bugs. Wouldn't charing or boiling water kill most if not all the bacteria? The barrel has an interesting mix of micro flora now, that I'd like to maintain and further develop. I will check this last frankenbatch that went in, come up with a plan. Perhaps I will boil and wash if this batch sours too quickly.

How does one go about waxing a barrel?
 
boswell said:
Lots of different replies. I am not interested in fully eliminating the bugs. Wouldn't charing or boiling water kill most if not all the bacteria? The barrel has an interesting mix of micro flora now, that I'd like to maintain and further develop. I will check this last frankenbatch that went in, come up with a plan. Perhaps I will boil and wash if this batch sours too quickly.

How does one go about waxing a barrel?
Click to expand...

You are kind of in a pickle here. You want to kill the aceto or it will continue wrecking your beer, but don't want to kill the rest of the bugs. I don't think the addition of boiling water will kill everything (though it will do a pretty good job). What it will do is lower the counts across the board. Then your hope is that in the next round the acetobacter won't grow and the other bacteria and the yeast will. Acetobacter requires oxygen, so....waxing...

Oldsock already posted the link, but here:
http://www.funkfactorygeuzeria.com/2012/02/paraffin-waxing-barrel.html

That will show you the process. Ignore the idea of only covering a portion of the barrel. For 5 gallon barrels, I'd recommend covering the whole exterior.
 
CSI said:
Some would consider a seasoned barrel like that very valuable :)
Click to expand...

I do consider it very valuable!

I will look into waxing as the sours that my wife and I prefer do contain a fair amount of vinegary sourness. Once the beer that is currently in the barrel comes out, I will reevaluate whether to clean the barrel. Levi, I dig your blog and I've read a good portion of it.
 
boswell said:
I do consider it very valuable!

I will look into waxing as the sours that my wife and I prefer do contain a fair amount of vinegary sourness. Once the beer that is currently in the barrel comes out, I will reevaluate whether to clean the barrel. Levi, I dig your blog and I've read a good portion of it.
Click to expand...

Have you considered blending from the well-seasoned barrel with 'sweet' Reds from a new barrel or glass carboy? If memory serves the Flemish Reds all blend 'sweet' and 'sour' ales to a signature palate.
 
boswell said:
I do consider it very valuable!

I will look into waxing as the sours that my wife and I prefer do contain a fair amount of vinegary sourness. Once the beer that is currently in the barrel comes out, I will reevaluate whether to clean the barrel. Levi, I dig your blog and I've read a good portion of it.
Click to expand...

You are going to want to clean it. Up to you how strong you want to clean it though. If left untouched, you may end up with straight vinegar next batch.
 
Blending has been mentioned several times. That is definitely a sound possibility. After this batch, I'll run some hot water through, wax the barrel and think long term. Blending was not an option with first beer, I simply wasn't prepared with a beer to blend.
 
boswell said:
Lots of different replies. I am not interested in fully eliminating the bugs. Wouldn't charing or boiling water kill most if not all the bacteria? The barrel has an interesting mix of micro flora now, that I'd like to maintain and further develop. I will check this last frankenbatch that went in, come up with a plan. Perhaps I will boil and wash if this batch sours too quickly.

How does one go about waxing a barrel?
Click to expand...

Yeah, lots of good ideas here. I think you have a pretty clear path forward. Blend (or set aside for blending) the current batch, wax the outside of the barrel, try again and if it's still too acetic heat kill and start the barrel colony over. Unfortunately, from what I can tell the temp and time required to reduce the acetobacter population would do the same to the yeast and LAB, but you could always shoot for a partial kill and hope for the best.
 
I guess absolute WORST case scenario, after steaming/killing/cleaning (if needed), I would brew a batch to fill, pitch another souring blend, have a group over, buy a bunch of Rayon Vert, Cantillion, Jolly Pumpkin, Russian River and Orval and drunk and pitch dregs.
 
Just a thought, (and I'm sure there is more to this than we're seeing). As your barrel matures and ale development speeds up, isn't this a matter of timing more than a need for killing off bacteria? You can near-halt the production of acetic acid by running the ale through a UV 'filter'. $60-80 bucks. Not overly pricey. From there you can blend.

With a barrel like that you could attenuate Reds in a few weeks, (not months or years), and probably win competitions around the country.
 
I haven't entered comps and don't really plan to, but my plan for now is to do just that, move beer through quickly, hopefully getting soured faster. Without killing off the microbes. I know the frankenbatch that is currently in the barrel already smells sour, has a decent pellicle and it's only been in the barrel a few weeks.
 
boswell said:
I haven't entered comps and don't really plan to, but my plan for now is to do just that, move beer through quickly, hopefully getting soured faster. Without killing off the microbes. I know the frankenbatch that is currently in the barrel already smells sour, has a decent pellicle and it's only been in the barrel a few weeks.
Click to expand...

Sweet! How long did it take to season the barrel to its current state?
 
I bought a 'bugged' barrel from someone on here. Threw a beer in it, waited a few too many years because we had a kid. Considered tossing the batch, but it looked great and tasted great. Finally got around to topping it up, pitching a bunch of dregs from the various greats, then bottling a week or so ago, and here we are. I'll have a better grasp on what I've got once the current batch comes out. The bottled portion is a beautiful garnet, with a pretty puckering sourness, hence inquiring about the acetobacter.
 
Long term, I want to push a couple batches through, get my hands on a big barrel and use my small batches as 'starters' to get a wine barrel inoculated, then begin a true solera system.
 
It may be too soon to exclaim but I tasted the weird amalgam I put in the barrel and it's f'ing delicious at just over a month. Perhaps moving beers through faster is the ticket after all. Only problem, is I assume the Brett hadn't had enough time to do its magic, so I may have to secondary in glass to let bugs work further. I haven't checked gravity yet, I drank the whole sample.
 
boswell said:
It may be too soon to exclaim but I tasted the weird amalgam I put in the barrel and it's f'ing delicious at just over a month. Perhaps moving beers through faster is the ticket after all. Only problem, is I assume the Brett hadn't had enough time to do its magic, so I may have to secondary in glass to let bugs work further. I haven't checked gravity yet, I drank the whole sample.
Click to expand...

Your getting mature reds at a month? If you can replicate your method of seasoning/inoculation I'd buy a barrel from you in a heart beat :)

You may have invented a unique American Red Ale and the barrel method to go along with it!
 
I don't mean to derail the thread, but just today I read an article where Jim Murray discusses Bourbon as overtaking Scotch as the best whiskey in the world because they sulfur their barrels in Scotland after using them for Sherry. Bourbon only uses virgin casks. He says the sulfuring makes it too bitter and Buffalo Trace is the best whiskey in the world, which I would tend to agree with although I think Old Rip Van Winkle might be close..
 
CSI said:
Your getting mature reds at a month? If you can replicate your method of seasoning/inoculation I'd buy a barrel from you in a heart beat :) You may have invented a unique American Red Ale and the barrel method to go along with it!
Click to expand...

No, this isn't a red. It's a long explanation, but it's a weird blonde that started as a single hop Amarillo APA. Short version, it's a peachy tropical fruity slightly sour blonde? The sourness is almost perfect now. More than a funky saison, but not quite petrus, but with definite tropical fruit. It's weird, but good weird. I'm not good at sours, I'm just screwing around.
 
boswell said:
No, this isn't a red. It's a long explanation, but it's a weird blonde that started as a single hop Amarillo APA. Short version, it's a peachy tropical fruity slightly sour blonde? The sourness is almost perfect now. More than a funky saison, but not quite petrus, but with definite tropical fruit. It's weird, but good weird. I'm not good at sours, I'm just screwing around.
Click to expand...

Just one last question, hope you don't mind. Was the barrel charred when you got it? If so, at what level of char?
 
cervid said:
I don't mean to derail the thread, but just today I read an article where Jim Murray discusses Bourbon as overtaking Scotch as the best whiskey in the world because they sulfur their barrels in Scotland after using them for Sherry. Bourbon only uses virgin casks. He says the sulfuring makes it too bitter and Buffalo Trace is the best whiskey in the world, which I would tend to agree with although I think Old Rip Van Winkle might be close..
Click to expand...

Yup, a little off topic :)
 

Similar threads

brownni5
Barrel Saison Solera
Replies
6
Views
1K
stealthfixr
S
Gnomebrewer
Barrel-aged lambic style....thoughts?
Replies
9
Views
2K
mashpaddled
M
RPh_Guy
Funky Farmhouse Cider
Replies
19
Views
8K
dawn_kiebawls
dawn_kiebawls
M
Barrel evaporation
Replies
11
Views
5K
mjleslie
M
kaz4121
Acetobacter in barrel - help!
Replies
19
Views
4K
FredTheNuke
F

Latest posts

Back
Top