OG was on, FG is off.

[Allyster]

Hi there,
This is my second all-grain batch in a row coming in short on my FG after fermentation has slowed. Here is the current recipe:

• 4.8 kg Pale malt
• 0.23 kg Abbey malt
• 0.23 kg Crystal 15 malt

Mash at 68C for 60 min. Sparge with 77C water (I did BIAB, dunked in fresh hot water, added to boil, and hung bag over boil)

• 1 oz Willamette for 60 min
• 0.6 oz Willamette for 20 min
• 0.6 oz Willamette for 1 min
• Ferment Safale US-05

OG: 1.052
FG: 1.013
Target ABV: 5%

My FG reading after 1.5 weeks : 1.020 I am using a conical fermenter, I am worried that the yeast may be getting trapped in the trub after a very active fermentation, and gave it a swirl this morning. My friend also said my hydrometer may be off, so I will test calibration after work. My fermentation temps is ~70F. Mash temp was 68C.
Also I am getting a re-occuring off-flavor of chemicals/bleach, I use no-rinse sanstar..

 

[doogie]

I don't think the trub would trap yeast. I would look more into water profile and enzymes. What is your water source? Any water treatment? Did you add any yeast nutrients? What yeast was used - I missed this US-05
I assumed that you used a hydrometer and not a refractometer to measure final gravity (since you mentioned it and the numbers would be further off if refractometer was used without adjustment).

 

[Allyster]

I purchased purified water from the store. I checked PH levels and added a PH stabilizer into the mash. I haven't added yeast nutrients as I have never needed it before..
For the yeast profile:

 

[IslandLizard]

Also I am getting a re-occuring off-flavor of chemicals/bleach

Using tap water from a municipal source?
If so, it contains Chlorine or Chloramines, and therefore treat all your brewing water with Campden before brewing with it.
Use 1/4 crushed Campden tablet (or an equivalent "pinch" of K-Meta) per 5 gallons. Just stir, works within a minute, neutralizing all the chlorine/chloramines.

Your sanitizer is called Starsan? That's a good product!

 

[Allyster]

Using tap water from a municipal source?
If so, it contains Chlorine or Chloramines, and therefore treat all your brewing water with Campden before brewing with it.
Use 1/4 crushed Campden tablet (or an equivalent "pinch" of K-Meta) per 5 gallons. Just stir, works within a minute, neutralizing all the chlorine/chloramines.

Your sanitizer is called Starsan? That's a good product!

I purchased purified water from the store. I checked PH levels and added a PH stabilizer into the mash. I haven't added yeast nutrients as I have never needed it before..
For the yeast profile:
View attachment 700510

 

[IslandLizard]

I purchased purified water from the store.

What kind of water? From an RO machine?
Was it perhaps chlorinated? Some packaged water is.

I checked PH levels and added a PH stabilizer into the mash.

pH by itself means very little, it's the alkalinity (and other mineral content), or the lack thereof, that's important.
Use Bru'nwater or another water/mineral calculator.

Stop using pH stabilizer. It's snakeoil, it mostly works the against the mash.
Except in very few cases. But in those, it's not needed then either.

 

[IslandLizard]

I purchased purified water from the store. I checked PH levels and added a PH stabilizer into the mash. I haven't added yeast nutrients as I have never needed it before..

I saw that, sorry, our posts crossed.

 

[Allyster]

What kind of water? From an RO machine?
Was it perhaps chlorinated? Some packaged water is.


pH by itself means very little, it's the alkalinity (and other mineral content), or the lack thereof, that's important.
Use Bru'nwater or another water/mineral calculator.

Stop using pH stabilizer. It's snakeoil, it mostly works the against the mash.
Except in very few cases. But in those, it's not needed then either.

 

[IslandLizard]

OK, that's deionized (DI) water ^
No minerals added, they are all 0 (zero) per the label. Comparable to RO (Reverse Osmosis) and Distilled water for brewing purposes.

Does it smell Chlorine-ish or swimming pool like? That could explain the chlorine smell in your beer.

 

[Allyster]

OK, that's deionized (DI) water ^
No minerals added, they are all 0 (zero) per the label. Comparable to RO (Reverse Osmosis) and Distilled water for brewing purposes.

Does it smell Chlorine-ish or swimming pool like? That could explain the chlorine smell in your beer.

No noticeable chlorine odors like tap water.

 

[McKnuckle]

1) You're at 62% attenuation with US-05, which easily gets 75-80%.
2) Are you measuring FG with a hydrometer or a refractometer?

Oops, I think you mentioned hydrometer. I can't delete the post but never mind.

 

[Allyster]

1) You're at 62% attenuation with US-05, which easily gets 75-80%.
2) Are you measuring FG with a hydrometer or a refractometer?

Oops, I think you mentioned hydrometer. I can't delete the post but never mind.

Yes I used to make a similar recipe with DME. But have switched to All-grain and am now stumped.

 

[McKnuckle]

Yeah, all that's being said about the pH and chlorine shouldn't affect yeast attenuation. If you had a 1.052 OG, you should get to 1.013-1.010 FG. Also, yeast don't easily get trapped anywhere. Quite the opposite... it's hard to keep good food away from them.

How confident are you in your mash temperature? Although it would have to be off/high by a lot to cause such a difference in attenuation. Sorry I'm not helping...

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes I used to make a similar recipe with DME. But have switched to All-grain and am now stumped.

How sure are you your thermometer used in the mash is accurate?
Did you apply heat during the mash?

Just looking for possible causes.

 

[Allyster]

Yeah, all that's being said about the pH and chlorine shouldn't affect yeast attenuation. If you had a 1.052 OG, you should get to 1.013-1.010 FG. Also, yeast don't easily get trapped anywhere. Quite the opposite... it's hard to keep good food away from them.

How confident are you in your mash temperature? Although it would have to be off/high by a lot to cause such a difference in attenuation. Sorry I'm not helping...

How sure are you your thermometer used in the mash is accurate?
Did you apply heat during the mash?

Just looking for possible causes.

I use a digital temp controller.
Strike temp @ 73C / 163F
Mash temp 64-70C / 147-158F : But I am to keep it at 68C / 154F for 60 mins. I stir mash every 20 mins. In roughly 4gal.
After 60 min is done, I lift bag and hang bag of the kettle till dripping is obsolete (No squeezing). I have a bucket with 2.5 gal hot water and dunk the bag and let it hang/ drip as I get my boil going. I add it in during my boil to get 6.5 gal, with reduces to 6 gal by the end of my boil. If I ever go below 6 gal, I top up with boiled water.

One thing I will note, is that I took a sample during the cool down in a grad cylinder and placed in the fridge to cool down to room temp to take my OG. I iced bathed my wort to about 50C and put it into the fermenter, shortly after I pitched my yeast.

 

[IslandLizard]

I use a digital temp controller.
Strike temp @ 73C / 163F
Mash temp 64-70C / 147-158F : But I am to keep it at 68C / 154F for 60 mins.

Temp controller? Does that result in heating the mash somehow?
How are you keeping the mash at 68C? It usually drops during the hour, without something heating it.

 

[Allyster]

Temp controller? Does that result in heating the mash somehow?
How are you keeping the mash at 68C? It usually drops during the hour, without something heating it.

I have a digital display of the mash via probe. I mix mash frequently to distribute heat. If it starts heading towards 64C, I turn on heat, and heat to 70C, mix, shut of heat. I usually only have to do this once, if that, cause my kettle it well insulated.

 

[IslandLizard]

OK! Thank you for the additional information. We're getting somewhere.

If it starts heading towards 64C, I turn on heat, and heat to 70C, mix, shut of heat.

That could have something to do with your higher FG. 70C (158F) is pretty high. If it goes much higher than that during the process of heating you may start to denature enzymes, especially Beta-amylase.
Do you stir at all, while it's heating? If so, how, and how well?
Are you brewing inside or outside? How is the kettle/mash heated? Propane, electric?

I usually only have to do this once, if that, cause my kettle it well insulated.

What kind of insulation, how thick?

This is my second all-grain batch in a row coming in short on my FG

Since this is your 2nd all grain brew in a row where the FG is higher than expected. Have you done anything differently in these last 2 brews than you did before? Such as re-heating the mash? Are you stirring more often? Anything else that could lead to the higher FG?

Also I am getting a re-occuring off-flavor of chemicals/bleach

If there is any scorching while heating the mash that can lead to weird off-flavors. You may find a sticky residue on the bottom of your kettle, when cleaning.

Speaking of cleaning, what kind of cleaners so you use on your equipment? Which for the kettle? Is it stainless?

 

[IslandLizard]

For illustration of the issues addressed above, here's a graph of enzyme activity during the mash. A mash that's spending much time above 68-70C (155-158F) starts to denature beta-amylase, which is the main driver of good fermentability.

 

[VikeMan]

I like the above chart as a notional teaching tool. But from the data I've seen, the "fermentability" curve could be moved a bit. Here's a slide edited from a presentation I do. It's based on Kai Troester's data, but Greg Doss also got similar results.

 

[Yooper]

You mentioned "pH stabilizer". Throw that away- it can't do what it says and it is likely the cause of that weird flavor.

 

[McKnuckle]

The interesting thing about that fermentability chart is that even at 160ºF, which some home brewers warn you is way too high (it's not), relative attenuation is only reduced by about 10.5%.

Meaning, if a yeast would take a 1.050 wort mashed at 151º down 80% to 1.010, the same yeast would take a 1.050 wort mashed at 160º down 71.6% to 1.014. It's not nearly as drastic as some make it out to be.

(80 x 0.895 = 71.6)

 

[VikeMan]

The interesting thing about that fermentability chart is that even at 160ºF, which some home brewers warn you is way too high (it's not), relative attenuation is only reduced by about 10.5%.

Meaning, if a yeast would take a 1.050 wort mashed at 151º down 80% to 1.010, the same yeast would take a 1.050 wort mashed at 160º down 71.6% to 1.014. It's not nearly as drastic as some make it out to be.

(80 x 0.895 = 71.6)

While I agree that a successful mash can be done at 160F (I've done it for a special project beer), I wouldn't take the numbers on the "Enzyme Activity in a 1 Hour Mash" chart as other than notional. AFAIK, there was no actual data behind the "fermentability" curve. If someone knows otherwise, please speak up!

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I like the above chart as a notional teaching tool. But from the data I've seen, the "fermentability" curve could be moved a bit. Here's a slide edited from a presentation I do. It's based on Kai Troester's data, but Greg Doss also got similar results.

Great chart and very simple for initial brewers to get their arms around mash temperature and fermentability for a single infusion 60 min mash.

Some wishful thinking - an intermediate/expert brewer update that could enhance the chart, would be to add extensions (that would go somewhere above 1.0) to the temperature bars below 150 (or even above 150) for extending the mash to 90 or 120 mins. Not sure if extensive data collection has been done on this. I checked Brukaiser and Brulosophy for relevant experiments but in the case of Brukaiser all his time experiments were done on temperatures above 152. Regarding Brulosophy all their experiments were done on very low versus very high temperature for 60 min mashes. Perhaps one day, someone will run experiments with one batch mashed at 151 for 60 mins, versus same batches at 149-145 for 75 to 90 mins. Adding even more wishful thinking, how about relative attenuation experiments that will enable notations for a hochkurz mashes at specified temperatures and times.

 

[camonick]

I iced bathed my wort to about 50C and put it into the fermenter, shortly after I pitched my yeast.

Any idea how long it took to get the beer down to 65-70° after you pitched your yeast? How long is “shortly after”? Unless it’s a typo, 50 °C is 122 °F and pretty darn warm for yeast if it didn’t cool quickly. I don’t know if it damaged some of your yeast, but just throwing out ideas. Maybe someone else can weigh in.

 

[Rake_Rocko]

I just read through this and haven’t seen anyone ask about pitching. What about your yeast.. is it possible you underpitched?

Reason I ask is because the most recent beer we brewed, our stir plate failed on us and we suspect our starter wasn’t ready when we pitched and our FG was way too high even though fermentation was clearly done.

Was a starter made?

 

[camonick]

Was a starter made

I’m no yeast expert, but OP said 1 packet of US-05 was pitched into 5ish gallons of 1.052 wort. That amount is generally accepted as being sufficient for that amount of wort assuming all other things are correct, including wort temperature which is why I asked the question I did. A starter wouldn’t usually be necessary.

 

[IslandLizard]

I checked Brukaiser and Brulosophy

Fooey! Most of us wouldn't dare using both names or references in the same paragraph, let stand in the same sentence...
BTW, it's Braukaiser.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

US-05 suggested dosage: 50 to 80 g (grams) per hl (hectoliter).

• roughly 25 gallons (US) in a hectoliter (more precisely: 26.42 gal)
• 50 to 80 g in 25 gal
• 10 to 16 g in 5 gal
• packet contains 11.5 grams

Or, from a package (with a 5/23 expiration date);

• 11.5 g in 20 to 30 liters
• 11.5 g in 5.28 to 7.92 gallons (US)

There is some interesting discussion here (link) on a couple of the newer Lallemand strains that don't follow the conventional pitch rate of 1 package (11-ish grams) per 5 gallons of "normal strength" wort.

 

[Allyster]

I got resolution!
I cranked the heat in my place and raised the room temp to ~72C. Started getting some activation and hit my OG mark of 1.012!

I tasted the sample, and that taste is still there, but now very faint... I had one batch that I threw out because that flavor was overwhelming, and since, each beer has had that taste, but less and less. The recipe/batch that I had the abundant off flavor, I used way too much coriander, and had it in the boil for too long.. Maybe this has affected my fermenter (Yes I do a deep clean each time). It may be time for a new fermenter..

 

[marc1]

I got resolution!
I cranked the heat in my place and raised the room temp to ~72C. Started getting some activation and hit my OG mark of 1.012!

I tasted the sample, and that taste is still there, but now very faint... I had one batch that I threw out because that flavor was overwhelming, and since, each beer has had that taste, but less and less. The recipe/batch that I had the abundant off flavor, I used way too much coriander, and had it in the boil for too long.. Maybe this has affected my fermenter (Yes I do a deep clean each time). It may be time for a new fermenter..

Pasteurization during fermentation saved the beer!

All kidding aside, glad you got the fermentation attenuated.

 

[grampamark]

The OP must heat with nuclear. Seventy-two Celsius is 161° F.

 

[Allyster]

The OP must heat with nuclear. Seventy-two Celsius is 161° F.

72F.. XD Converting can get complicated hahah.

 

[Beermeister32]

Go find a 4.4 cubic foot refrigerator and hook up a digital temperature control. Use that as your fermentation chamber. Set it for the low end of the yeast temperature range. Sounds to me like you might be fermenting too warm and the yeast is producing off flavors.