Off flavor frustration

[Dadof5]

If your pitching temp seems to be right, I would next look at your thermometer. Is it calibrated? Sounds like you've got your water profile dialed in, next you should go a step deeper and see if your equipment may be off. After a lot of research, I've found that the only things that can cause that particular "off" flavor are too much chlorine/chloramines in the water and yeast pitching temp. Even if your starter was a little warm, if you pitched it into <70 wort it shouldn't have caused that much of an off flavor.

Yes, I'm confident my thermometer is good. I'm going to start by eliminating the chlorine factor and pitching more yeast. I keep finding mixed views on the chlorinated water for starsan solution. But I personally have to believe that the beer coming into contact with it through every step of my process has to have a negative impact. Possibly coupled with not enough yeast. Does it make sense? I need to make good beer! Ugh! Seatazzz, thanks for your help!

 

[dsaavedra]

I just sampled a couple bottles of an American premium lager that I bottled a couple weeks ago. Tasted great during packaging and when I tasted a bottle after 3 weeks at room temp (high 70s/low80's) and 1 week in the fridge, all I could taste was green apple. Tasted like cider as you described. I've had this happen with other pale, delicately flavored beers like pilsners.

I suspect it's a result of the bottle conditioning. Maybe I had my bottles at too high of a temperature and the bottle fermentation produced a fair amount of acetaldehyde that has nowhere to go. I also recall reading that acetaldehyde can be a result of oxidation, something that I think it virtually unavoidable when bottling. Thankfully I'm working on transitioning to kegging all my beer.

I'm interested to see some more suggestions from this thread!

 

[Dadof5]

I just sampled a couple bottles of an American premium lager that I bottled a couple weeks ago. Tasted great during packaging and when I tasted a bottle after 3 weeks at room temp (high 70s/low80's) and 1 week in the fridge, all I could taste was green apple. Tasted like cider as you described. I've had this happen with other pale, delicately flavored beers like pilsners.

I suspect it's a result of the bottle conditioning. Maybe I had my bottles at too high of a temperature and the bottle fermentation produced a fair amount of acetaldehyde that has nowhere to go. I also recall reading that acetaldehyde can be a result of oxidation, something that I think it virtually unavoidable when bottling. Thankfully I'm working on transitioning to kegging all my beer.

I'm interested to see some more suggestions from this thread!

Does oxidation occur that quickly? I have no idea. I'm almost afraid to ask because i might not like the answer, but how much yeast do you pitch? Do you make a starter?

 

[dsaavedra]

Does oxidation occur that quickly? I have no idea. I'm almost afraid to ask because i might not like the answer, but how much yeast do you pitch? Do you make a starter?

Not sure if oxidation shows up in as little as 4 weeks but I wouldn't write it off, especially in the light, delicately flavored beers I've had problems with - off flavors have nowhere to hide! I do know that I am planning on brewing the exact same recipe again and kegging it to see if the flavor persists.

For the pilsner I made a starter something like 3 liters, for the premium lager I made a starter of 2 liters (only pitched like 1.5 liters - saved the rest for next time). I'd say the premium was probably underpitched, but that one I aerated with pure O2 for a minute or so, so I figured an underpitch wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

[Bilsch]

I seem to be getting a familiar off flavor especially after a sip or two then when I burp...there it is! This artificial I guess band aid-y hard to describe flavor. The beer ends up with a cider feel/flavor. I bottle, but when I sample before bottling I taste none of this.

Sounds like simple over carbonation to me.

 

[Dadof5]

Not sure if oxidation shows up in as little as 4 weeks but I wouldn't write it off, especially in the light, delicately flavored beers I've had problems with - off flavors have nowhere to hide! I do know that I am planning on brewing the exact same recipe again and kegging it to see if the flavor persists.

For the pilsner I made a starter something like 3 liters, for the premium lager I made a starter of 2 liters (only pitched like 1.5 liters - saved the rest for next time). I'd say the premium was probably underpitched, but that one I aerated with pure O2 for a minute or so, so I figured an underpitch wouldn't be the end of the world.

Awwww crap. Well maybe that's good news for me. It may narrow my issue down to the chlorine as the culprit. I'll still pitch more yeast as that can't hurt. And i found an aquarium pump that i thought I'd gotten rid of. Just need some syringe filters and a stone and I can aerate also.

 

[Bilsch]

I also recall reading that acetaldehyde can be a result of oxidation, something that I think it virtually unavoidable when bottling.

Oxidation during bottling is avoidable. Look up fermenter priming or bottle spunding if your interested in low oxygen packaging.

 

[Dadof5]

Sounds like simple over carbonation to me.

This I also looked in to. But when I run my numbers through a priming calculator, the results show I'm under. I used over an ounce less than suggested in this last brew.

 

[ReaperOnefour]

The cider taste could be from tossing the bottles into the fridge, before they are fully carbonated. When you do that the yeast fall asleep, & you end up with that acetelyde taste. I always carb them up for 3-4 weeks before throwing them in the fridge.

 

[cloudybrewer]

I really feel your pain. My scenario is very similar to yours:

Been brewing for a year and a half.
6 batches in.
Took an eight month break after batch three when work got too crazy and kid 3 was born.
Only one good batch so far.

But my problems are different than yours. My beer goes to **** in the fermenter, even with a proper pitch and a homemade fermentation chamber with a temp controller.

I won't give up if you don't!

 

[Dadof5]

I really feel your pain. My scenario is very similar to yours:

Been brewing for a year and a half.
6 batches in.
Took an eight month break after batch three when work got too crazy and kid 3 was born.
Only one good batch so far.

But my problems are different than yours. My beer goes to **** in the fermenter, even with a proper pitch and a homemade fermentation chamber with a temp controller.

I won't give up if you don't!

I promise you cloudybrewer there will be no giving up here! Good beer shall be made by all!!! Only one good batch here and I'm still looking for a bigger used chest freezer so I can fit more carboys!

 

[ncbrewer]

Would adding two packs of the dried yeast serve the same purpose as making a starter? Since under pitching is one of my concerns

Sorry to be late answering - been really tied up. Yes, two packets of yeast would address an under pitching problem, but it's generally thought that one 11 gram packet is good for up to 5 gallons at up to 1.060 OG. The rehydration process can be a problem though. What is your rehydration process (I don't think I've seen it in this thread).

 

[Dadof5]

Sorry to be late answering - been really tied up. Yes, two packets of yeast would address an under pitching problem, but it's generally thought that one 11 gram packet is good for up to 5 gallons at up to 1.060 OG. The rehydration process can be a problem though. What is your rehydration process (I don't think I've seen it in this thread).

No worries. I totally get the tied up thing. I generally boil a cup of water cool it to 85-90F add yeast and let it sit for 15min mix it and give it 15 more minutes or so before thinking about pitching.

 

[TungstenBeer]

I'm hearing Band-Aid and also cidery taste.

1. Cidery is often caused by using too much sugar in your brew. What's your priming sugar procedure? Are you using any corn sugar in your recipe at all? I'm not sure what would cause the other off-flavor (Band-Aid) if this was the problem, but it could be related to a different fermentation problem or a second problem.

2. Band-Aid is usually linked to chlorine, but if you're using RO water you should be good there. I really really don't think you would find anything of that nature just because of star-san. Band-aid flavor is usually associated with using diluted bleach as a sanitizer and not rinsing well enough. I don't think a few left over suds from municipal water would cause it. I use untreated water every brewday for sanitizing almost everything that needs to be sanitized, and we have a good amount of chlorine here.

3. You mentioned the extract twang and you're not sure what that might be like. Before I went to all-grain, I used to get that all the time and it went away when I started buying DME from MoreBeer instead of buying canned LME at my local shop. My theory is that the DME keeps better and turns a lot faster at MoreBeer compared to the local sohp, and therefore is a lot fresher. I don't know if those are correct, but it'd be worth trying out buying extract online if you aren't already. You know it'll be fresh from a major online retailer just because of how much they sell.

 

[Dadof5]

I'm hearing Band-Aid and also cidery taste.

1. Cidery is often caused by using too much sugar in your brew. What's your priming sugar procedure? Are you using any corn sugar in your recipe at all? I'm not sure what would cause the other off-flavor (Band-Aid) if this was the problem, but it could be related to a different fermentation problem or a second problem.

2. Band-Aid is usually linked to chlorine, but if you're using RO water you should be good there. I really really don't think you would find anything of that nature just because of star-san. Band-aid flavor is usually associated with using diluted bleach as a sanitizer and not rinsing well enough. I don't think a few left over suds from municipal water would cause it. I use untreated water every brewday for sanitizing almost everything that needs to be sanitized, and we have a good amount of chlorine here.

3. You mentioned the extract twang and you're not sure what that might be like. Before I went to all-grain, I used to get that all the time and it went away when I started buying DME from MoreBeer instead of buying canned LME at my local shop. My theory is that the DME keeps better and turns a lot faster at MoreBeer compared to the local sohp, and therefore is a lot fresher. I don't know if those are correct, but it'd be worth trying out buying extract online if you aren't already. You know it'll be fresh from a major online retailer just because of how much they sell.

I so want to just do all grain but I need a bigger kettle yet. Not quite in the budget. You may be on to something with the LME. Seems the best batch I brewed was all DME. Interesting. I prime with corn sugar according to whatever kit I brew.

 

[ncbrewer]

No worries. I totally get the tied up thing. I generally boil a cup of water cool it to 85-90F add yeast and let it sit for 15min mix it and give it 15 more minutes or so before thinking about pitching.

There are a couple of items that could be problems. One is too much time between starting rehydration and pitching. According to an email from Danstar, "Our technical manager suggests that you don't go longer than 30 minutes after the start of rehydration before pitching the yeast into wort as the yeast needs nutrients. If there is a delay you could actually add more wort to the rehydration water to give the yeast something to eat while you are waiting to pitch it, so long as it isn't too hot." For me, it's always longer than 30 minutes, so I add about 3/4 oz of chilled wort after the 5 minute rest. (I use Danstar's procedure - add yeast - wait 15 minutes - stir - wait 5 minutes ...)

Also, the yeast slurry should be cooled in steps of no more than 18F to close to the wort temp at pitching. I cool it to 10F or less above wort temp.

I don't really know if yeast is the problem, but if so, maybe this will help.

 

[Clonefan94]

Just throwing a thought out there that I haven't seen mentioned, so I'd though I would ask. What are you cleaning your bottles with? You say they are spotless, then sanitized, but is it possible you are leaving some residual cleaner in there before you sanitize?

Also, check the source of the "Drinking Water" you are using. Having been in the water business a few years ago, not all water is what it claims to be. Some have been known to skimp a bit on their process.

 

[Dadof5]

Just throwing a thought out there that I haven't seen mentioned, so I'd though I would ask. What are you cleaning your bottles with? You say they are spotless, then sanitized, but is it possible you are leaving some residual cleaner in there before you sanitize?

Also, check the source of the "Drinking Water" you are using. Having been in the water business a few years ago, not all water is what it claims to be. Some have been known to skimp a bit on their process.

I use oxiclean free sparingly. I also rinse thoroughly with very hot water. I've often wondered about bottled water. I run a .500MGD water plant for a small municipality and have read similar stories about commercial water. I'm going to switch to demineralized water and give it a shot.

 

[Dadof5]

There are a couple of items that could be problems. One is too much time between starting rehydration and pitching. According to an email from Danstar, "Our technical manager suggests that you don't go longer than 30 minutes after the start of rehydration before pitching the yeast into wort as the yeast needs nutrients. If there is a delay you could actually add more wort to the rehydration water to give the yeast something to eat while you are waiting to pitch it, so long as it isn't too hot." For me, it's always longer than 30 minutes, so I add about 3/4 oz of chilled wort after the 5 minute rest. (I use Danstar's procedure - add yeast - wait 15 minutes - stir - wait 5 minutes ...)

Also, the yeast slurry should be cooled in steps of no more than 18F to close to the wort temp at pitching. I cool it to 10F or less above wort temp.

I don't really know if yeast is the problem, but if so, maybe this will help.

I'm going to go with the method you mentioned. I don't know...my gut says I'm under pitching and/or unhealthy stressed yeast. The more I read though the more confused I get. Not giving up by a long shot though. I greatly appreciate the input. Probably would have thrown in the towel has this resource not been available.

 

[Transamguy77]

I read most of this thread and I didn't see anywhere that you ferment, so I my question is where are you fermenting at? I ask this because a few years ago I was living in a hundred year old house and was fermenting in the basement and eventually developed a mold issue, but I didn't know it for several batches. I had gone through my process and my sanitation. I questioned my home brew club and no one had any answers so on a whim I decided to ferment in my living room and just like that no more off flavor! I started to ferment in other places in the house and no more dumped beer. I have since moved so no more mold issue.

 

[oylerck]

Loving the input! This last batch was about 60F, OG 1.050 when I pitched yeast....which was at about 80F. Possibly shocked yeast? Or would that just get things going a little slower? Fermented at 64F until krausen fell then up to 68 for a week. Too much up and down?

I do this same technique and I have not tasted any bandaid.

I rehydrate the yeast with water that is around the temp of my finger. Should be 92-95? Then I pitch when the wort is 80f, put in my ferm chamber (pop merchandising cooler) and aim for 65. Let it sit for a week then bump it up a few degrees and then after I measure and hit my fg fall to cold crash temps. My only off flavor is grassiness but I suppose that comes with 11oz of hops in a 5gallon.

 

[Dadof5]

I read most of this thread and I didn't see anywhere that you ferment, so I my question is where are you fermenting at? I ask this because a few years ago I was living in a hundred year old house and was fermenting in the basement and eventually developed a mold issue, but I didn't know it for several batches. I had gone through my process and my sanitation. I questioned my home brew club and no one had any answers so on a whim I decided to ferment in my living room and just like that no more off flavor! I started to ferment in other places in the house and no more dumped beer. I have since moved so no more mold issue.

First few batches were done in a swamp cooler in the spare bathtub. I've since built a temp controlled fermentation chamber. Glad you were able to figure your issue out. Cheers!