Odell 90 Shilling Clone

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kruserm

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I am trying to make a Odell 90 shilling clone and below is a recipe that I pieced together from various forums. I based the grain bill from a post on nothernbrewer in which the poster claimed he email Doug O'dell and provided the following info:

OK, I emailed O'Dells sometime ago, and Doug O'Dell responded to my inquiry. Here's what he sent me: 90 Schilling has about 27 IBU's and starts at 1.054, w/malt % as follows:

75% Pale ale malt
9% Munich malt
7% light crystal malt
5% wheat malt
3% caramalt
1% choc malt

Pasted from http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14716

For the Hops I found this thread on tastybrew.com: http://www.tastybrew.com/forum/thread/22710

I am no expert at making recipes so I wanted to get some opinions on this. From the Odell Brewing site I know it is 27 IBUs and 5.3% alc. by vol.

Type: All Grain
Date: 11/12/2009
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Brewer:
Boil Size: 13.14 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment:
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
16.75 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.14 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.09 %
1.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2.27 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.14 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 13.6 IBU
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (30 min) Hops 10.5 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (15 min) Hops 2.2 IBU
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (5 min) Hops 1.4 IBU
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.38 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 27.6 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
 
I have been looking for a good clone recipe for this as well. Hopefully some one here can be of some help.
 
This beer should have little to no finishing hops. If you MUST add some stick with Willamette or Fuggles. Cascade and Northern Brewer are totally out of style and definitely not in Odell's 90 Schilling. I honestly do not taste any significant hop flavor at all. I would suggest moving to a single early hop addition or changing the 30 minute addition to Willamette or Fuggle and dropping the additions after 30 minutes.
 
So here is a modified recipe based on bbrim's suggestions, I just changed the hops. Does anyone else have any suggestions.

Type: All Grain
Date: 11/12/2009
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 13.14 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
16.75 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.14 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.09 %
1.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2.27 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.14 %
2.00 oz Fuggles [5.10 %] (60 min) Hops 16.3 IBU
1.50 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (30 min) Hops 8.9 IBU
0.50 oz Fuggles [5.10 %] (5 min) Hops 0.8 IBU
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.38 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.34 %
Bitterness: 26.0 IBU Calories: 240 cal/pint
Est Color: 9.8 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 22.00 lb
Sparge Water: 5.06 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 27.50 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 15.40 qt of water at 196.6 F 168.0 F

Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
 
You would be better served with a Scottish Ale Yeast. I have experienced great results with White Labs Edinburgh Ale Yeast, but I know Wyeast also has at least one option. You'll want to keep your fermentation temp in the low 60's, down to 60, if you can. It will keep the beer very clean, free of esters. The American Ale yeast would be okay if fermented cool, but a Scottish yeast is just a better way to achieve the flavor you're looking for.
 
I can't imagine Odells using anything other than some common cal ale, or maybe wlp002. Its more of an amber or hybrid than anything scottish.
 
Wait. It's a "90 Shilling" ale and it's not a Scottish Ale?

Two things if this is true. First, I call BS on calling it a 90 Shilling Ale. And second, my advice is not so useful. But if this was a Scottish Ale I would suggest a boil down of the first gallon of runnings down to half or even a quarter of the original volume. This will contribute the very powerful caramelly malt character of the typical Scottish Ale.
 
dontman said:
Wait. It's a "90 Shilling" ale and it's not a Scottish Ale?

Two things if this is true. First, I call BS on calling it a 90 Shilling Ale. And second, my advice is not so useful. But if this was a Scottish Ale I would suggest a boil down of the first gallon of runnings down to half or even a quarter of the original volume. This will contribute the very powerful caramelly malt character of the typical Scottish Ale.
Click to expand...


I dont understand the question. It is a 90 Shilling Scottish Ale.

Does this mean a 90 min boil instead of 60?
 
ramthebuffs said:
I can't imagine Odells using anything other than some common cal ale, or maybe wlp002. Its more of an amber or hybrid than anything scottish.
Click to expand...

Why do you say that you cannot immagine any yeast other than cal ale. Wyeast has a Scottish Ale yeast 1728 that attenuates well down to 55F
 
dontman said:
Wait. It's a "90 Shilling" ale and it's not a Scottish Ale?

Two things if this is true. First, I call BS on calling it a 90 Shilling Ale. And second, my advice is not so useful. But if this was a Scottish Ale I would suggest a boil down of the first gallon of runnings down to half or even a quarter of the original volume. This will contribute the very powerful caramelly malt character of the typical Scottish Ale.
Click to expand...

quinnae said:
I dont understand the question. It is a 90 Shilling Scottish Ale.

Does this mean a 90 min boil instead of 60?
Click to expand...

O'Dell's 90 Shilling (one of my go-to local beers) is NOT a 90 shilling ale, nor is it a scottish ale. It's O'dell's interpretation of a scottish ale for the mass market, and it's a pretty good beer.

The malt and caramel notes you'd expect from a scottish ale are present, but restrained. 90 Shilling also has more hops presence than the typical scottish ale. I think of it more as a malty amber ale than a true-to-form Scottish ale

I don't think a scottish style yeast would be required for this beer. I do think one that tends to emphasize malt notes would be a better choice -- say an English ale yeast, or S-04.

I haven't brewed a clone of 90 Shilling, so take my advice for what it's worth (not much).
 
O'Dell's 90 Shilling (one of my go-to local beers) is NOT a 90 shilling ale, nor is it a scottish ale. It's O'dell's interpretation of a scottish ale for the mass market, and it's a pretty good beer.
Click to expand...

I do understand 90 shilling is not a true 90 shilling according to style. From odellbrewing.com they talk about lightening up a traditional Scottish ale. I guess how would you take a traditional Scottish recipe and lighten it up?
 
dontman said:
Wait. It's a "90 Shilling" ale and it's not a Scottish Ale?

Two things if this is true. First, I call BS on calling it a 90 Shilling Ale. And second, my advice is not so useful. But if this was a Scottish Ale I would suggest a boil down of the first gallon of runnings down to half or even a quarter of the original volume. This will contribute the very powerful caramelly malt character of the typical Scottish Ale.
Click to expand...


sorry for the threadjack... but what do you mean by boiling down? take the first gallon and start boiling while the rest is sparging?
 
claphamsa said:
sorry for the threadjack... but what do you mean by boiling down? take the first gallon and start boiling while the rest is sparging?
Click to expand...


Aye - that's exactly what I do with my Scottish ales. The 70/- recipe of mine you've brewed before has since been reformulated to reflect this. Boil a gallon of the first runnings long enough to reduce the volume by 50 - 75%.
 
Boil a gallon of the first runnings long enough to reduce the volume by 50 - 75%.
Click to expand...

Is this what dontman was talking about that it will create caramelly malt character?

flyangler which one is your 70 shilling recipie that you speak of?
 
kruserm said:
Is this what dontman was talking about that it will create caramelly malt character?

flyangler which one is your 70 shilling recipie that you speak of?
Click to expand...

It is.

This is the recipe. I may start a new recipe thread to keep things simple.

Feel free to post your questions in that thread to keep this one on topic. ;)
 
Would a decoction mash be appropriate for this recipe?
Click to expand...

I am not sure if this would be appropriate for a decoction mash, hopefully someone with more experience than me can answer that.
 
A decoction would work but you should keep the crystal malts to a minimum as the decoction will contribute significant caramel flavors. A decoction is really unnecessary, so unless you really like to do them I would avoid the extra work and use between 5-8% Crystal malt, you can boil down the first running and boil hard throughout.
 
I doubt O'Dell's does a decoction. If I were going to use that grain bill, I'd use a simple infusion.
 
jgbrown said:
Would a decoction mash be appropriate for this recipe?
Click to expand...

Not with a British pale ale malt, no. Those malts are designed for single infusion and step mashing would be counterproductive.

The boil down thing would be a better way to get flavor from excess thermal loading in this case and honestly I doubt O'Dell's is doing anything like that, they are probably getting melanoidins and sweetness from specialty grain.
 
Confused as to your batch size, the recipe says it's 11gal, but when I throw that into beersmith the est OG is super low. I did a IIPA with a similar grain bill that had an OG of 10.90, would this be safe to brew as a 5gal batch? Any input would be appreciated, will be taking on this brew tomorrow!
 
Sorry for the slow response, here is the recipe I used.


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
15 lbs 14.2 oz Pale Ale Malt (3.3 SRM) Grain 2 74.3 %
1 lbs 14.4 oz Munich Malt (8.9 SRM) Grain 3 8.9 %
1 lbs 6.8 oz Caramel Malt - 40L (Cargill) (40.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.7 %
15.2 oz Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 6 4.4 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 4.7 %
3.8 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 7 1.1 %
1.55 oz Northern Brewer [8.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 22.1 IBUs
0.38 oz Cascade [5.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 12 1.2 IBUs
0.38 oz Northern Brewer [8.90 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 13 2.0 IBUs
0.38 oz Northern Brewer [8.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 15 1.1 IBUs
0.38 oz Cascade [5.40 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 14 0.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.40 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.90 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
0.25 tsp Super Moss (Boil 20.0 mins) Fining 11 -
1.00 qt Super Moss Mix (Boil 52.0 mins) Fining 9 -
1.10 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 21 -
2.20 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 1 -
1.0 pkg Kolsch Yeast (Wyeast Labs #2565) [125.00 ml] Yeast 19 -

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.055 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.5 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.5 %
Bitterness: 27.0 IBUs Calories: 152.6 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 10.7 SRM


Hope this helps, let me know how it turned out. I thought (along with several others) that this was very very close to being cloned. Several tasters thought this version was the commercial very saying it tasted better.
 
Wow...now I'm worried as to what I'll have turn out. I used the second recipe that was posted (Willimette and Fuggles), brewed it as a 5gal batch (had beersmith set to extract, so the OG on 11gal came out way too low), finished around 1100, then split the batch, diluting 2.5 gallons in a second primary and hoping for a good beer to come out, leaving the other 2.5 gallons and hoping for a barleywine. This might be one that gets thrown out.

Amount Item Type % or IBU
16.75 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.14 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.09 %
1.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2.27 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.14 %
2.00 oz Fuggles [5.10 %] (60 min) Hops 16.3 IBU
1.50 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (30 min) Hops 8.9 IBU
0.50 oz Fuggles [5.10 %] (5 min) Hops 0.8 IBU
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale -Pitched an additional Safale 05 on day 2 to help eat up the sugars, as the OG was 1100
 
It's been a little while since anyone posted on this thread, so I'll revitalize it.

I'm still super new at this hobby, and I'm looking for what I want to brew for my 3rd batch.

I really enjoy this beer but unfortunately it can't be found in Illinois where I live...

I was wondering if this could be done via extract? and if so, would anyone be some kind as to help a green brewer determine a recipe?

Cheers!

-Andrew

The recipe looks complex, and I'm still brewing extract for now. Would this rece
 
This is a all-grain recipe I did a couple years ago that got in the ballpark:
Ingredient Name Amount
Briess 2-Row Brewer's Malt 7 lbs, 4 oz
Weyermann Munich Type II 0 lbs, 14 oz
Briess 2 Row Caramel 20 0 lbs, 11 oz
Weyermann Pale Wheat 0 lbs, 7 oz
Crisp CaraMalt 0 lbs 4 oz
Crisp Chocolate Malt 0 lbs, 2 oz
Northern Brewer Pellets 1 oz @ 60 mins
Cascade Pellets .33 oz @ 25 mins
Cascade Pellets .33 oz @ 5 mins
Northern Brewer Pellets .5 oz @ 0 mins
Cascade Pellets .33 oz @ 0 mins
SAFALE US-05 American Ale 1

You can replace the 2-row with pale extract. All of the specialty grains except the Pale Wheat can be steeped. You might add a pound or less of wheat extract. Keep playing around with it for a few batches before you get it to your tastes.

If you have not tried ordering from them yet, Brewmasters Warehouse has a web app called "brewbuilder" that would let you add the wheat, pale extract and specialty grains to one recipe kit.

Let me know what you come up with. I have not had the time to brew all-grain lately and might take another crack at this in extract too.
 
bigolbigbelly said:
If you have not tried ordering from them yet, Brewmasters Warehouse has a web app called "brewbuilder" that would let you add the wheat, pale extract and specialty grains to one recipe kit.

Let me know what you come up with. I have not had the time to brew all-grain lately and might take another crack at this in extract too.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up ---

That website is pretty slick!

10% off code : BBBYO works too!

I used your recipe just to play around with
 
Here is what it spit out using your recipe bigolbigbelly

90Schilling Clone V1.jpg
 
I'm not seeing a 'pale' option under the LME or DME sections on their Brew Builder.

Here at the LME Options

Briess Bavarian Wheat Liquid Extract - Exact Amount
Briess Golden Light Liquid Extract - Exact Amount
Briess Munich Liquid Extract - Exact Amount
Briess Pilsen Extra Light Liquid Extract - Exact Amount
Briess Sparkling Amber Liquid Extract - Exact Amount
Briess Traditional Dark Liquid Extract - Exact Amount
Briess White Sorghum Syrup

DME Options:

Briess Bavarian Wheat Dry Extract
Briess Golden Light Dry Extract
Briess Pilsen (Extra) Light Dry Extract
Briess Sparkling Amber Dry Extract
Briess Traditional Dark Dry Extract
 
The link in the beginning of this thread shows a break down of the recipe that was sent to a home-brewer from the O'Dell's brewer:
90 Schilling has about 27 IBU's and starts at 1.054, w/malt % as follows:
75% Pale ale malt
9% Munich malt
7% light crystal malt
5% wheat malt
3% caramalt
1% choc malt

The Golden extract is closer to pale ale malt described. Golden Extract is made of Base Malt (probably two-row), Carapils® Malt, Water
The pilsner extract is pilsner malt, which is lighter and used mostly in lagers.
 
A few other notes, using the "Brew Builder" on BMW website and the style of 90 Shilling.
Change the "Recipe Parameters" to American Pale Ale.

Some of the discussion in the beginning of this thread starts to talk about the actual style of O'Dell's 90 Shilling. It is not a Scottish style ale. It is an American brewery's interpretation of a Scottish style ale. That is why I went with US-05 yeast instead of a Scottish yeast.

There is also some discussion above about late hop additions. To my tastes, O' Dell's 90 Shilling does have some hop flavor in the finish. So I left the late hop additions and went with American hop varieties. This is all my opinion but half the fun of trying to clone a recipe is making multiple batches and fine tuning things like this to your tastes.
 
bigolbigbelly said:
A few other notes, using the "Brew Builder" on BMW website and the style of 90 Shilling.
Change the "Recipe Parameters" to American Pale Ale.

Some of the discussion in the beginning of this thread starts to talk about the actual style of O'Dell's 90 Shilling. It is not a Scottish style ale. It is an American brewery's interpretation of a Scottish style ale. That is why I went with US-05 yeast instead of a Scottish yeast.

There is also some discussion above about late hop additions. To my tastes, O' Dell's 90 Shilling does have some hop flavor in the finish. So I left the late hop additions and went with American hop varieties. This is all my opinion but half the fun of trying to clone a recipe is making multiple batches and fine tuning things like this to your tastes.
Click to expand...

Right so this beer falls into a couple categories flavor profile wise. So far I've had good luck with -05, would you expect this to be in primary for 3 weeks or so ?
 
I don’t do any extract brews but I used beersmith and converted the recipe to extract and this is what it gave me. When I brewed the all grain recipe this was very, very close taste wise (so close several tasters called it cloned) and just a shade off in color. I was really happy with the way it turned out. I hope this helps.

Ingredients
Amt Name
2.20 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 mins)
1 lbs 2.7 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
12.0 oz Caramel Malt - 40L (Cargill) (40.0 SRM)
2.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM)
15 lbs 2.1 oz Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM)
12.7 oz Amber Liquid Extract (12.5 SRM)
11.5 oz Wheat Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM)
1.55 oz Northern Brewer [8.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.00 qt Super Moss Mix (Boil 52.0 mins)
1.00 Items Chiller (Boil 25.0 mins)
0.25 tsp Super Moss (Boil 20.0 mins)
0.38 oz Cascade [5.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min
0.38 oz Northern Brewer [8.90 %] - Boil 10.0 min
0.38 oz Cascade [5.40 %] - Boil 5.0 min
0.38 oz Northern Brewer [8.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min
0.50 oz Cascade [5.40 %] - Boil 0.0 min
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.90 %] - Boil 0.0 min
1.0 pkg Kolsch Yeast (Wyeast Labs #2565) [125.00 ml]
0.50 tsp Gelatin (Primary 12.0 days)
1.10 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days)
 

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