Obtaining higher ABV

[UltraHighABV]

Hi this is my first post, sorry if this is the wrong forum for this.

I'm brewing the la fin du monde clone at the bottom here http://www.tastybrew.com/forum/thread/31325

The ABV comes to 9%; I want the same beer only at 11%.

Heres what my plan is so far, any input would be great as i'm pretty new to this.

I got 2 vials of Belgian strong ale yeast and am going to make a starter. Should I use both vials for this?

I'm going to add servomyces, and add O2 prior to fermenting.



My big question is, should I add sugar to the recipe as it stands, and if so, how much and which kind? My gut tells me belgian candi sugar, but have no idea how much, or do I know if this is even best.

Any tips?

Also: theres some supplements in the recipe like orange zest; when does this get added?

Thanks guys, looking forward to being part of the forum.

 

[frozennorth]

Check out the Basic Brewing podcast from last week. It is all about getting higher ABV from yeasts that are not designed to reach high ABVs.

 

[elkshadow]

You can use this recipe builder and plug everything into it and experiment with amounts of sugar and ABVs and whatnot.

I looked at those recipes on that page and if you're not using Unibroue yeast you're going to end up with a tasty beer but probably not very much like La Fin du Monde.

I make Belgians almost exclusively and if you want a good golden strong recipe try this:

OG from 1.080 to 1.090

70% pilsner
15% munich
15% sugar (I use regular sugar)

25-30 IBUs total of a good dual purpose hop like Sterling or Saaz or Styrian Goldings (with about 20 IBUs coming from the bittering charge)

wyeast 3711 or 1214 or 3787

I've made this with coriander and orange peel and I like it better without. I like 3787 the best on it. Simpler is better with Belgians. Let the yeast shine through.

 

[UltraHighABV]

Ok thanks I'll check it out!

 

[elkshadow]

yes you can add regular old sugar to get the ABV up. I try to keep my sugar under 20% of total fermentables but that's really more out of superstition than science or personal experience. Use the recipe builder I linked above to figure out how much.

 

[UltraHighABV]

yah this recipe builder is great. If I add three pounds it will get me where I want to be, at about 17% total fermentables.

How much does the type of sugar matter here; if i use belgian candi vs DME vs cane?

Also whats the risk of all that extra sugar not fermenting and having the beer taste too sweet at the end?

 

[elkshadow]

Type of sugar definitely matters but I have found DME and Candi syrup to be cost-prohibitive so I just use regular sugar. I have used a little bit of wheat DME just to see what it brings and I didn't like it. If all you want to do is increase ABV use regular sugar or just use more grain in the same ratio as the original recipe.

The "sweetness" of a beer is generally decided by its mash temp and final gravity, not how much sugar was added. There is generally no risk that table sugar will remain unfermented when using what you call "Belgian strong ale yeast."

 

[elkshadow]

dp

 

[misterkidd]

Re: candi sugar - it can make a big difference in dark beers but not so much for a golden strong. I don't think its worth the money over plain old sugar. Elkshadow's recipe looks like a winner.

 

[elkshadow]

Re: candi sugar - it can make a big difference in dark beers but not so much for a golden strong. I don't think its worth the money over plain old sugar. Elkshadow's recipe looks like a winner.

 

[beergolf]

If you do raise the OG then you need to add more hops to keep the BU:GU ratio the same. Just adding sugar to get the gravity up can throw it our of balance.

If it was my beer I would up all of the ingredients to keep the same ratios.

 

[Owly055]

I frequently use sugar to bump the ABV while keeping the brew light. I've found it worth taking the time to "invert" the sugar....... A simple process that breaks sucrose down into glucose and fructose which are far more fermentable. Corn sugar is already invert, but for the cost of a small amount of citric acid or cream of tarter, and a few minutes boil, I'll do it myself. Unless you need the flavor from the dark candi sugar, why waste the money? We use sugar for only one thing....... to boost the ABV. We want it to do that without contributing anything else...

There is a persistent myth about sugar "drying a beer out"........... And it is a myth unless you are removing other fermentables and replacing them with sugar..... adding sugars does one thing only.... increase alcohol.


H.W.

 

[pdxal]

Clear candi sugar isn't worth it IMO. Table sugar works just fine.
Sugar essentially takes a 1.080 all malt beer and makes it finish like a 1.060 beer if 0.020 of the gravity came from sugar since it is 100% fermentable. It won't finish as malty, which should preserve some of the hops balance. You can add it to the boil at the end and it won't effect hop extraction and it will invert in the kettle.
80% pilsner malt, 20% sugar and 25-30 IBUs of Saaz or Sterling with Unibroue yeast makes for a good triple. You can always add spices at bottling by making a spice tea and adding it to the bottling bucket to taste.

 

[UltraHighABV]

Thanks for all the great advice. I have some more questions:

I'm going with corn sugar, 3 lbs. and Im going to make a starter.

What is the most optimal way to do this?

I have 2 vials of yeast, and was planning to throw both in the starter. Is this overkill, can you have TOO much yeast?

How much of the extra 3lbs should I put in the starter, and how much should I add after boil. 1lb sugar in 1L starter? With one yeast vial or 2?

Should I just be using malts for the starter? or Extract? why or why not just use the corn sugar im going to add in later?


Also what do you think about pitching 1 vial in the starter upfront, then pitching AGAIN later on? Ive heard some people mention doing this. Is it bad? What are the pros/cons? Also when does the second pitch occur, after you move it to the secondary, or while its still in primary?

Thanks!

 

[erick0619]

Thanks for all the great advice. I have some more questions:

I'm going with corn sugar, 3 lbs. and Im going to make a starter.

What is the most optimal way to do this?

I have 2 vials of yeast, and was planning to throw both in the starter. Is this overkill, can you have TOO much yeast?

How much of the extra 3lbs should I put in the starter, and how much should I add after boil. 1lb sugar in 1L starter? With one yeast vial or 2?

Should I just be using malts for the starter? or Extract? why or why not just use the corn sugar im going to add in later?


Also what do you think about pitching 1 vial in the starter upfront, then pitching AGAIN later on? Ive heard some people mention doing this. Is it bad? What are the pros/cons? Also when does the second pitch occur, after you move it to the secondary, or while its still in primary?

Thanks!

I'm sure someone els will chime in with a much better explanation but from my understanding, when brewing beers that are dependent on the yeast for a majority of the flavoring its best not to over pitch. with what you have there the 2 vials it allows you to make a smaller starter and still get the appropriate cell count and as for using table sugar in a starter don't, stick to light dme, I forget why you can't use plain old sugar but I'm sure it messes with the yeast.

 

[UltraHighABV]

Ok I found out using the corn sugar in the starter is a bad idea.

I'll use DME and lower the amount of corn sugar I add based on the recipe.

Still though what do you guys think about two rounds of pitching vs 1 round, and adding both vials of yeast to the starter?

starter size?

 

[Billy-Klubb]

I use the blood of Canadians. it tastes like maple syrup and back bacon.

 

[elkshadow]

I use the blood of Canadians. it tastes like maple syrup and back bacon.

Last night I took this thread seriously and tried to help because I have experience making high ABV Belgians but tonight (after 4 homebrew abbeys) I'm thinking, "Google it and stop trolling." LOL

 

[Billy-Klubb]

Last night I took this thread seriously and tried to help because I have experience making high ABV Belgians but tonight (after 4 homebrew abbeys) I'm thinking, "Google it and stop trolling." LOL

I thought about being serious, but I gave that up in the 7th grade.

 

[UltraHighABV]

Last night I took this thread seriously and tried to help because I have experience making high ABV Belgians but tonight (after 4 homebrew abbeys) I'm thinking, "Google it and stop trolling." LOL

Yes! Help is good. this is my first batch, ever so there are bound to be mistakes.

How does this sound: 2L starter with 1lb of DME, 1 vial of yeast, aerated with oxygen, set for 24 hours.

Will that be enough to get me through to the end?

 

[UltraHighABV]

Hey guys, I got my starter all figured out, so no help needed there.

I'll re-post when I run into some trouble or have some more questions. Thanks for all your help

 

[pdxal]

Yes! Help is good. this is my first batch, ever so there are bound to be mistakes.

How does this sound: 2L starter with 1lb of DME, 1 vial of yeast, aerated with oxygen, set for 24 hours.

Will that be enough to get me through to the end?

This is your first batch ever, and you're trying this?
Go big or go home, I guess. Many with experience here would recommend getting basics down first with some practice before doing this.
I hope you figured out gravity of starter is best in the 1.030-1.040 range to grow the most and most healthy yeast. That would work out to about 200g DME in a 2L starter. Not sure if that is the optimal size for your batch, but that would be optimal for starter gravity.

 

[UltraHighABV]

This is your first batch ever, and you're trying this?
Go big or go home, I guess. Many with experience here would recommend getting basics down first with some practice before doing this.
I hope you figured out gravity of starter is best in the 1.030-1.040 range to grow the most and most healthy yeast. That would work out to about 200g DME in a 2L starter. Not sure if that is the optimal size for your batch, but that would be optimal for starter gravity.

Yah I'm going to keep the OG there at 1.040 for the starter. I'm going to need a ****load of yeast to make it to the finish line though. My OG is going to be somewhere around 1.100. But I think with 2L (max I can do with my hardware), 2 vials of yeast, stirplate, pure O2 and nutrients we have a good shot

 

[pdxal]

Good luck with it, I hope it turns out for you.

 

[schematix]

why not start with something more modest, even ~7%? You're going to make lighter fluid and have to choke it down or let it go down the drain.

 

[UltraHighABV]

why not start with something more modest, even ~7%? You're going to make lighter fluid and have to choke it down or let it go down the drain.

lol Ill keep you guys posted, or ask for help when my kitchen explodes

 

[Timmo99]

You are going to need at least 400 billion yeast cells to attenuate fully to your desired ABV. Pitching 2 vials into a 2 liter starter will get you 300 billion cells. You will need one more vial in a 1 liter starter to add another 150 billion cells to put you over the top.
Your starter gravity should be around 1.040. You want a 10:1 ratio (200 gram DME in 2 L) to achieve that. Use a stir plate.

 

[schematix]

lol Ill keep you guys posted, or ask for help when my kitchen explodes

head in the sand. full speed ahead. good luck.

 

[UltraHighABV]

You are going to need at least 400 billion yeast cells to attenuate fully to your desired ABV. Pitching 2 vials into a 2 liter starter will get you 300 billion cells. You will need one more vial in a 1 liter starter to add another 150 billion cells to put you over the top.
Your starter gravity should be around 1.040. You want a 10:1 ratio (200 gram DME in 2 L) to achieve that. Use a stir plate.

yah I ran the calculation too and came up A LITTLE short; I think with stir plate, O2, servomyces and fermaid K in the starter i should get close with 2 vials. I'm going to pull SG readings periodically post-fermentation and if Im not getting there I might pitch a little finisher to top things off, we'll see

 

[podz]

yes you can add regular old sugar to get the ABV up. I try to keep my sugar under 20% of total fermentables but that's really more out of superstition than science or personal experience. Use the recipe builder I linked above to figure out how much.

Plain old sugar will thin your beer out a bit if you use more than that because it increases volume and ferments nearly entirely i.e. it all turns into alcohol if the yeast has a high enough alcohol tolerance. If it's a thin style, anyway, then it probably doesn't matter. I wouldn't recommend putting sugar into a hefeweizen, for example, which is supposed to have a lot of body. Watery beers, like IPAs, probably doesn't matter.