Nutrient addition

[Guido Anicito]

Is staggering nutrients absolutely necessary? I've seen videos where people do it all at the beginning and everything works out fine

 

[CKuhns]

Not 100% necessary but a SNA protocol (TOSNA 2.0 and 3.0) do in some situations help keep your yeast happy and healthy. Non-stressed healthy active and productive yeast are typically the reason you want to use a SNA. Yes you can under the right conditions put all your nutrients in up-front and have non-stressed yeast.

I utilize the following guideline: (Others may disagree)
- Low ABV Meads Session or Hydromels (Name is dependent upon who you talk to) with an OG of 1.050 - 1.100 then adding nutrients all up front with good aeration and stirring it a couple times a day works for me very well. (Yeast pitch to keg 20 - 40 days)
- High ABV more traditional Meads with a 1.100 - 1.125 OG in my opinion require a SNA protocol or your going to be waiting months to years to age out the flavors stressed yeast throw. (Yeast pitch to Bottle 90 - 120 days and bottle to glass 6 - 9 months. Some cases much longer)

Of course Yeast selection, type of nutrient, pH, Temperature, aeration etc all play a roll in how healthy your yeast are The protocols I use are specifically managed to optimize that specific yeast health.

 

[Maylar]

Some background on why we do this:

Nutrient Additions

 

[Blackrock612]

Wow thanks for posting that link. I’m definitely going to use that calculator to find the required amount of nitrogen to use for my first ever attempt at mead. Not to hijack the thread or anything but I have a couple questions about this approach: 1. using Fermaid O doesn’t cover you for micronutrients, right? You still have to add those too since fermaid o is just nitrogen? 2. How does one determine the requirements of the yeast strain for the calculation (I.e. “low,” “medium,” or “high”)? Thanks very much.
Edit: I did just see an actual online calculator for the additions that lets you select your yeast strain from a drop down so it looks like that’s one way at least. I suppose another approach would be just to always pick “medium.”

 

[Maylar]

Wow thanks for posting that link. I’m definitely going to use that calculator to find the required amount of nitrogen to use for my first ever attempt at mead. Not to hijack the thread or anything but I have a couple questions about this approach: 1. using Fermaid O doesn’t cover you for micronutrients, right? You still have to add those too since fermaid o is just nitrogen? 2. How does one determine the requirements of the yeast strain for the calculation (I.e. “low,” “medium,” or “high”)? Thanks very much.
Edit: I did just see an actual online calculator for the additions that lets you select your yeast strain from a drop down so it looks like that’s one way at least. I suppose another approach would be just to always pick “medium.”

Fermaid O has all the other nutrients too. Besides the list in the pull-down, there are charts for common yeasts that show the relative nitrogen requirements, like this one:
http://www.piwine.com/media/pdf/yeast-selection-chart.pdf

And yeah, when in doubt I pick medium.

 

[Blackrock612]

Does fermaid k have all the others too? I got fermaid k and was about to make my first batch but now after reading that it sounds like o would have been the better choice. Should I just not worry about it or go ahead and get the “o” one?

 

[CKuhns]

Fermaid-K and DAP (Diammonium Phosphate) are best used together, I have found they work for nutrient additions just fine.

In addition to what @Maylar provided
See Scott Labs site for more info on O.
Fermaid O | Scott Laboratories

TOSNA Calculator - Mead Made Right

 

[Maylar]

The main difference, as I understand it, is that Fermaid-K and DAP are both inorganic whereas -O has organic nitrogen. Supposedly there is an advantage to that, and -O is all I use for mead. I do use -K and/or DAP for low gravity stuff like cider.

 

[Maylar]

Fermaid-K and DAP (Diammonium Phosphate) are best used together, I have found they work for nutrient additions just fine.

In addition to what @Maylar provided
See Scott Labs site for more info on O.
Fermaid O | Scott Laboratories

TOSNA Calculator - Mead Made Right

I think -K already has DAP in it.

 

[videojunkie1208]

My go to is a combination of Go Ferm and Fermaid O. (TOSNA 2.0) I'm seeing fermentation rates upwards of 90pts in a week, typically more than 10pts/day (using D47). The meads are drinkable straight out of the fermenter, but improve with aging.

 

[Steveruch]

I recently had the last bottle of an 18 year old mead that was very good. I added wine yeast nutrient one time.

 

[Blackrock612]

I think -K already has DAP in it.

Boy I’m confused. So how is fermaid k different than the other ingredient mentioned as simply “DAP?”

 

[Blackrock612]

For some background about why I’m asking... I got some yeast “energizer” and some yeast “nutrient” a while back. I intended to use the “nutrient” to rehydrate the yeast and then add the “energizer” to the fermenter after a few days. Then I read something about how DAP doesn’t have micronutrients the yeast need, then I noticed both the packages I have say they are DAP. Then I just read this thread about TOSNA which sounds very sensible. I’m wondering if I can use either of these products as my “DAP” and then get ahold of some fermaid O (or K?) to add in also to meet the TOSNA protocol - and I should be good? I attached a picture of what I have currently... I’m a little confused about what I should be using so really any insight would be pretty helpful, thanks.

 

[CKuhns]

What you have will work just fine. It is a Food grade Urea and DAP. Honey is deficient in nitrogen and yeast cells cant easily metabolise it.

Diammonium Phosphate: This is a salt that provides a source of free amino nitrogen.

Urea helps the yeast to utilize or take up (metabolise) the nitrogen.

 

[Maylar]

I've never used an energizer. The only thing to use when rehydrating, if anything at all, is GoFerm Protect.

 

[Redeemer]

Boy I’m confused. So how is fermaid k different than the other ingredient mentioned as simply “DAP?”

Fermaid K contains DAP but not enough for high OG fermentations like traditional mead, as @CKuhns stated regarding why staggering is important in the first place. For the best results with an SNA protocol, additional DAP beyond what the Fermaid K contains is required.

Fermaid O is great because it is organic, and because most of the research I have done agrees with the statements about the YAN being greater due to how yeast cells actually take it up, so less is required.

That said, Fermaid O has given me some off flavors in the past, that I couldn't pinpoint until I duplicated the recipe and the ferment conditions using Fermaid K and DAP instead.

Oh and for nitrogen additions, you could always just pee in your bucket; I'm pretty sure DAP is just crystallized urine.

All kidding aside though, I have had problems with just Fermaid K as well, giving me off flavors. Coming from brewing mostly beers, I wasn't prepared for the challenges that come with high OG ferments, especiallly mead, and I have no real temperature control beyond a swamp cooler. It wasn't until I started doing SNA that I really dialed into truly drinkable meads within 30 to 60 days. Here is the tool: https://www.meadmakr.com/batch-buildr/Further, I have had the best success with this method: Advanced Nutrients in Meadmaking

Read that doc and read it well. As you learn about SNA, it may seem counter-intuitive to add the Fermaid O later in the schedule, since the yeast will use the DAP first anyways, and having it there and ready for them would see like the best idea but, from personal experience confirmed by an article I read and can't seem to find, this produces a superior result.

After having done quite a bit of reading and re-reading, there is still much I don't understand and have not mastered but I can say, using an SNA has taken my mead to the next level. And the folks on this website are awesome as well. Lots of great knowledge from helpful people here.

 

[bushpilot]

Your "nutrient" is DAP. Your "energizer" is similar to Fermaid-K, which also contains DAP. You can use them together in an SNA protocol calling for DAP and Fermaid-K.

Do not use either for rehydration, the DAP is harmful at that stage.

 

[Blackrock612]

Thanks for the help everyone. I finally gave it a go and made batch #1. Appreciate all the input. I made a post about how it went if anyone has the slightest interest.