Not sure what it is, but

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hroth521

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Here's what I did with it:

This is fresh pressed juice, sulfited, then fermented with safale beginning in November. Racked once from primary into better bottle. SG @1.000. Developed a white waxy looking film. Tasted the cider and it's very good even for this early in the process. So I racked it out from underneath the film into a bottlling bucket into which I had put 1/4 tsp metabisulfate in a little boiled water. I'm going to bottle normally tonight with some corn sugar. I'm going to soak the caps in sulfite too. (read about that on the cider workshop). We'll see. The last picture shows what was left after racking.

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I believe that's dead yeasties, but I'm probably wrong.

I hope you're right. It was just so waxy - I could break it into chunks. Also, there were several weeks where there was nothing on top. And the other 4 carboys don't have it. If it's just dead yeast - no harm no foul. But I just didn't want to take the chance it was something worse.
 
Is the corn sugar for priming? Are you going to add a little yeast to the bottling bucket? The sulfite should've killed most, if not all, of the yeast that was still in there.
 
Is the corn sugar for priming? Are you going to add a little yeast to the bottling bucket? The sulfite should've killed most, if not all, of the yeast that was still in there.

I'm a relative nooby here so I have a lot to learn. I did think that the sulfites would stop the yeast from reproducing but probably not kill them. I added sulfite to stop whatever might be contaminating my cider from progressing. The worst thing I think that can happen at this point is that I will add sugar and it won't ferment. I like still off dry cider too.:mug:

On the other hand... how much yeast should I add if I were going to?
 
Sulfites kill yeast and tends to dissipate. Sorbate stops them from reproducing and is forever. You can pitch yeast 24 hours after adding sulfites, but adding yeast anytime after sorbate is usually a futile effort.

If you want to carbonate your cider, I would add about 1 oz corn sugar (dissolved in water) per gallon and some yeast. I would rehydrate about a 1/4 pack of the same yeast in a few oz of warm water and then gently stir it in to the bottling bucket.
 
Sulfites kill yeast and tends to dissipate. Sorbate stops them from reproducing and is forever. You can pitch yeast 24 hours after adding sulfites, but adding yeast anytime after sorbate is usually a futile effort.

If you want to carbonate your cider, I would add about 1 oz corn sugar (dissolved in water) per gallon and some yeast. I would rehydrate about a 1/4 pack of the same yeast in a few oz of warm water and then gently stir it in to the bottling bucket.

That looks like an almost empty bag of sulfites in the picture. Is it a 1 lb bag? Did you use all those sulfites?

Are you using regular bottlecaps or oxy caps?

Sulfites don't kill yeast! Brewers yeast and wine yeast are amazingly tolerant of sulfites- that is why winemakers use them as an antioxidant! Of course, you have to use a reasonable amount- about 1/4 teaspoon in 5 gallons or 5 crushed campden tablets. 1/4 teaspoon won't even stun the yeast, so don't worry about it!

It looks like an infection in your cider, though. It will probably turn sour sooner or later (more likely sooner), so drink it quickly if you can!

The infection is probably because of the big headspace in the carboy. You want to top up to within an inch or two of the bung to minimize headspace from now on.
 
Yeah that definitely looks like an infection. Basically +1 on yooper's comments - drink it quick.
 
Sulfites don't kill yeast! Brewers yeast and wine yeast are amazingly tolerant of sulfites- that is why winemakers use them as an antioxidant! Of course, you have to use a reasonable amount- about 1/4 teaspoon in 5 gallons or 5 crushed campden tablets. 1/4 teaspoon won't even stun the yeast, so don't worry about it!

I was under the impression that commercial yeasts were more tolerant of sulfites than wild yeast, but it would still kill them. If one campden tab per gallon won't even stun the yeast, then why is it standard practice to wait 24 hours to pitch yeast after adding sulfites? It is also common practice to use a combination of sulfite and sorbate when backsweetening. Why include the sulfites when backsweetening if they don't do anything? Are these practices wrong? Am I missing something?
 
I was under the impression that commercial yeasts were more tolerant of sulfites than wild yeast, but it would still kill them. If one campden tab per gallon won't even stun the yeast, then why is it standard practice to wait 24 hours to pitch yeast after adding sulfites? It is also common practice to use a combination of sulfite and sorbate when backsweetening. Why include the sulfites when backsweetening if they don't do anything? Are these practices wrong? Am I missing something?

Yes, commercial yeasts are far more tolerant of sulfites than wild yeast are. That's why it's used as an antimicrobial before the chosen yeast is added- it'll kill wild yeast and bacteria or at least "sanitize" most musts.

Sulfite levels of up to 50 ppm won't harm wine yeast at all.

From Jack Keller's winemaking website: Unless we use boiling water or direct heat for flavor extraction, or unless we use pasteurized juice or frozen concentrate, it is important that the must be protected against bacteria and mold from the earliest moment, and against oxidation. We do this by adding sulfites to the must in the form of crushed and thoroughly dissolved Campden tablets or powdered potassium metabisulfite. This does not sterilize the must, but brings it to an aseptic level of protection against microscopic organisms that can do terrible things to wine. Just as importantly, the addition of sulfites creates both bound and unbound (free) sulfur in the must. The later occurs most notably as sulfur dioxide gas, which tends to fill the spaces between molecules of solid and liquid matter in the must. This is real important, because those spaces are normally filled with oxygen atoms and they react with other molecules in the wine to eventually reduce it to something undrinkable. Oxidation is the death-blow for all wine, so getting rid of that oxygen and replacing it with sulfur dioxide helps protect and prolong the life of the wine. But it also retards the tendency of all white wines to turn brown and red wines to turn brickish (reddish-brown). Finally, they also inhibit the early growth of most wild yeasts that find their way into musts (on the skins of grapes, fruits, berries, flowers, leaves, and other natural ingredients), while cultured wine yeasts are largely sulfite tolerant. This allows the cultured yeasts to grow quickly without competition and dominate the must. So, even if the recipe doesn't say to add sulfites, add them as early in the process as practicable. They can even be added to warm (but not hot) must. The normal dose is one crushed and dissolved Campden tablet to each gallon of must, or 1/4 teaspoon of potassium metabisulfite to each 5 gallons of must. Do not add more than this, as too much is in some cases worse than not enough.
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The reason you wait before adding yeast after sulfiting has more to do with tradition than necessity. That way you have a relatively sanitized must, and you can add the yeast after 24 hours to ensure a quick start. While sulfites don't kill yeast, an overdose of sulfites can certainly stun them.

As far as using campden (sulfite) with sorbate when sweetening a finished wine, the sorbate doesn't kill yeast either. But it inhibits yeast reproduction. It works better in the presence of sulfites, so I wouldn't say the sulfite doesn't "do anything". It's a very effective anti-oxidant, and a good wine preservative. Since sorbate works better in its presence, it's added when the sorbate is added. Ideally, wine would have 50 ppm of free so2 in it all the time. But of course, it disipates so it must be added at intervals. It's usually added at every other racking and at bottling.
 
I believe what your pictures show is the waxy pellicle (aka skin) associated with certain yeasts commonly found on fruit. For instance, it's common to see something just like this with yeasts like Brettanomyces (aka "brett") which are used in making Lambics (they're acidogenic - ie acetic acid producing - a little makes a nice pucker, too much can make wine/beer taste 'metallic").

If your cider smells ok, I wouldn't worry about it - my guess would be that it's just a wild yeast strain that happened to get into that batch. Brett is particularly sensitive to sulfite, so if that's what it was, you've likely knocked it out.
 
"It looks like an infection in your cider, though. It will probably turn sour sooner or later (more likely sooner), so drink it quickly if you can!

The infection is probably because of the big headspace in the carboy. You want to top up to within an inch or two of the bung to minimize headspace from now on."
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Too bad about the infection. The cider tastes sooo good now!! Last year's cider took almost 8 months to get really tasty. This one (my first from fresh juice) is complex and quite tasty already. It's in the bottle. I won't have any trouble drinking it up.

Regarding sulfites - I have seen comments by Yooper regarding yeast and sulfites before and I think there is some confusion because of the complexity of the interaction. Here is a very old abstract that clearly indicates that sulfites are toxic to yeast cells. But the amount of toxicity is dependent on pH, temperature, etc. And clearly what happens in vivo is often different than what happens in vitro. Regardless of the cellular biology, I will defer to the vast experience of brewers and vintners like Yoopers as far as the real world expectations.

Arch Microbiol. 1979 Jun;121(3):225-9.
Rapid decrease of ATP content in intact cells of Saccharomyces cerevisiae after incubation with low concentrations of sulfite.
Schimz KL, Holzer H.

Abstract
Sulfite, at concentrations above 1 mM and at a pH below 4, caused cell death in Saccharomyces cerevisiae X2180 as measured by the colony-forming capacity. A rapid decrease in the ATP content was observed prior to cellular death. The depletion of ATP was reversible and the lethal effect could be prevented if the cells were exposed to sulfite for periods of less than 1 h. Extent and rate of ATP depletion were dependent on time, pH value, temperature and sulfite concentrations.

PMID: 42368 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
One reason for adding sulphite before fermenting is to suppress the weakly fermentative yeasts often present, and allow good yeasts such as saccharomyces to predominate. There are a lot of natural yeasts which aren't particularly good for fermenting but which are very sensitive to sulphite.
I think it if tastes ok now it should stay good. If you've bottled it the co2 from priming sugar should give good protection, with the so2. SO2 lasts a fair while in non-pigmented wine such as cider, but only a few months if there is pigment such as red wine.
 
If you used store bought apples, it could very well be wax. Most grocers wax their apples for appearance.

I thought about this briefly but it's probably not wax. I bought the apples from a farmer at the farmer's market so I don't think he waxed them. And also, it only happened in one out of 5 carboys. But it really looked like wax.
 
I think it if tastes ok now it should stay good. If you've bottled it the co2 from priming sugar should give good protection, with the so2. SO2 lasts a fair while in non-pigmented wine such as cider, but only a few months if there is pigment such as red wine.

I disagree. Mid to long term store of infected ciders isn't a good idea. Just like when you store fruit, only the perfect, imperfection free fruit should be in your stores.
 
Another taste tonight - very good if lightly flavored cider. Suspect it will be better in several months. Good carbonation.
 
Another taste - very good cider. Is now cloudy - suspect bottle conditioning as the cause. Very tasty, no off flavors. :mug:
 
Cracked open a bottle. Crystal clear. Delicious. It will not last a year to test longevity. Lesson: Do not fear sulfites.
 
I'll concur on the film yeast from my studying. Not the end of the world. Yep rack sulphite and top off.Glad to hear it turned out good. This is exactly why I don't rack.
 
Only one or two bottles of this left. The one I'm drinking is superb. Crystal clear, and delicious.
 
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