Not so good turbo/hard cider results

[schmurf]

I've tried make a few turbo/hard cider brewings during some months now but I'm not so pleased with them. It ferments well, down to 1.002 or there about, making it something like 5% ABV, dry as I want it. But, there is this yeast smell/flavor of the cider that makes it less enjoyable to drink.

My process is simple: apple juice from the store (no preservations etc), some yeast nutrient and White Labs WLP775. Ferment at ~22C/71F for 2 weeks, prime/bottle and let it sit 2 weeks. Last batch I added some tannins, wanted to see if it changed anything, but nope.

I make small batches, 5 liter (1.3 US gal), so I'm wondering if I'm pitching too much yeast...about 1/2 of the yeast package? Could this cause this yeasty flavor and aroma shine through?

I have let some cider lager for a couple of months and it doesn't seem to reduce the yeast flavor much.

Been watching guys on youtube making this and it all seems so simple for them!

 

[Maylar]

Are you in the UK? Following that Brit dude who teaches "turbo" cider on you tube? His methods are a bit odd.

You can't really over pitch yeast. So, it isn't that. Typically we let the cider finish fermenting then transfer (rack) to a smaller carboy (5 ltr becomes 4-ish) and let it clear before bottling. You might just be bottling too soon.

 

[schmurf]

Indeed, watched that brit dude Yeah I bottle directly from the "1st" fermentor. So you're suggesting I would either let it sit for some more weeks and/or transfer to a secondary? Do I need to cold crash?

Thanks btw!

 

[homebrewer_99]

Turbo Yeast says to me that it ferments fast, but it's not ready to drink fast.

 

[S-Met]

Cider may benefit from 1-2 transfers and definitely helps to cold-crash. Pectic enzyme will help to clear if you want crystal clear cider.

I've had success adding gelatin like with beer and cold-crash.

Bigger concern is the yeast. I always assumed turbo was good for grain alc, distillation, fuel, etc. not drinking. I use wine yeast, ec-1118, red star premier blanc and 71B with good results. I've also used a white labs Belgian l, but dont recall which one.

Also watch your ferm temp. That can account for off flavors. Try and avoid fermenting at the upper range for the yeast and you should be ok.

 

[schmurf]

Thanks guys. I've been under the impression that the wlp775 yeast is a "proper" and dedicated yeast for cider brewing, not just a "turbo cider" yeast. It's supposedly originated from a real apple cider brewery in the UK.

I think at least for my last brews I had temperature under good control, about 22C +- 0.3.... and there isn't really bad flavours, just this yeast flavour.

I might try transfer to secondary and do cold crashing next time !

 

[madscientist451]

Try fermenting at a lower temperature like around 60F, see if that helps.
Taste cider before you bottle it, bottling isn't going to improve the flavor of your cider.
Cider isn't beer, you can't expect it to be ready to drink in 2-4 weeks.
Everyone has different taste, some people may like juice from the store made into a quick cider, and some people don't like that flavor.

 

[schmurf]

Point taken! I will see how I will proceed with this, I'll give it a go a couple of more times. I might take up another approach if I'm not getting better result with "turbo" brewing... ridiculous name for sure.

 

[madscientist451]

You may also want to try other yeast, I've used WLP 775, and I didn't like it ll that much. WL 002 is better to my taste, but lots of cider makers like 71-B.

 

[Maylar]

Turbo Yeast says to me that it ferments fast, but it's not ready to drink fast.

He's not using turbo yeast. "Turbo Cider" is a term coined by a Brit fellow who does a series of YouTube videos about making quick cider using store bought juices. Think Motts apple juice and wine yeast.

As for the yeasty taste, yes I suggest racking your cider to a secondary and letting it clear before bottling. And as mentioned above, adding pectic enzyme to the cider when you pitch the yeast will help it clear a lot sooner.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I guess that's what I make too. LOL!

Simple recipe: 4.5 gls of Apple Juice and 2# cane sugar, Nottingham or Safale US-05 yeast.

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi Schmurf - and welcome So here's the thing: if the apple juice you use is filtered - ie clear,then you know it has been denuded of all nutrients and if it all the nutrients have been filtered out then you are stressing the yeast. So, either look for unfiltered juice or add nutrients to help the yeast. The irony about yeasty tasting drinks is that there is too little yeast being used to ferment not too much and if you are pitching (adding) enough yeast cells the lack of nutrient may mean that too many of those cells are not viable. Poor rehydration or pitching protocol can destroy the viability of the colony too...For cider my go to yeast is 71B - That's a wine yeast with an affinity for malic acid.

 

[bernardsmith]

I guess that's what I make too. LOL!

Simple recipe: 4.5 gls of Apple Juice and 2# cane sugar, Nottingham or Safale US-05 yeast.

What's the value added of the 2# of cane sugar? It'll raise the SG by about 16 points but doesn't add any flavor.

 

[homebrewer_99]

What's the value added of the 2# of cane sugar? It'll raise the SG by about 16 points but doesn't add any flavor.

The added sugar ferments out to make it drier.

I've gone as high as 7# of table sugar in a 5 gal batch (following a proven recipe). It was still good, just a bit too much.

 

[bernardsmith]

Right... but that is how brewers talk. They add sugar to their beer and the yeast ferments that sugar out and so their brew is somehow "drier" but if your cider absent sugar fermented to .996 and if you added 6 plus ounces of sugar to each gallon and those 15 points of sugar fermented bone dry the cider would still be at .996. How does the addition of sugar make the cider more dry? It makes it more alcoholic but it is not any "drier" in any objective way. Dryness is a measure of the residual sugar not the total fermentable sugar. Not something I have ever understood.

 

[schmurf]

Hi Schmurf - and welcome So here's the thing: if the apple juice you use is filtered - ie clear,then you know it has been denuded of all nutrients and if it all the nutrients have been filtered out then you are stressing the yeast. So, either look for unfiltered juice or add nutrients to help the yeast. The irony about yeasty tasting drinks is that there is too little yeast being used to ferment not too much and if you are pitching (adding) enough yeast cells the lack of nutrient may mean that too many of those cells are not viable. Poor rehydration or pitching protocol can destroy the viability of the colony too...For cider my go to yeast is 71B - That's a wine yeast with an affinity for malic acid.

Thanks, I've been adding some yeast nutrient but it might have been not enough. I'll be upping the dose next time and/or perhaps add some crushed apples or something. Thanks guys for great advices!

 

[homebrewer_99]

Right... but that is how brewers talk. They add sugar to their beer and the yeast ferments that sugar out and so their brew is somehow "drier" but if your cider absent sugar fermented to .996 and if you added 6 plus ounces of sugar to each gallon and those 15 points of sugar fermented bone dry the cider would still be at .996. How does the addition of sugar make the cider more dry? It makes it more alcoholic but it is not any "drier" in any objective way. Dryness is a measure of the residual sugar not the total fermentable sugar. Not something I have ever understood.

I'm not sure how to address your input without sounding like a Richard. All I can say is it comes out bone dry...not sweet at all.

 

[Drewed]

I'll sound like a Richard, I'm not that way.

White sugar (table) or corn sugar do not add ANY sweetness to a fermenting beverage. All they do is up the ABV. You can add so much that it can't ferment out, but that is nasty.
In beer, increasing the %ABV gives the effect of a dryer brew as the higher alcohol masques some of the unfermentables. As Bernardsmith states F.G. of 0.996 is 0.996 It doesn't matter if your OG was 1.035 or 1.120. They both will have a thin mouth feel and also be bone dry. One will make you smiley, and the other will degrease a battleship.

 

[S-Met]

I'm not sure how to address your input without sounding like a Richard. All I can say is it comes out bone dry...not sweet at all.

Simply put, don't add sugar and it will still be bone dry. Sugar only adds abv. Added sugar has no net effect regarding 0.996 other than maybe taking a few hrs longer to get there.

If higher abv is desired, keep adding sugar, but that takes away from the apple flavor.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I'll sound like a Richard, I'm not that way.

White sugar (table) or corn sugar do not add ANY sweetness to a fermenting beverage. All they do is up the ABV. You can add so much that it can't ferment out, but that is nasty.
In beer, increasing the %ABV gives the effect of a dryer brew as the higher alcohol masques some of the unfermentables. As Bernardsmith states F.G. of 0.996 is 0.996 It doesn't matter if your OG was 1.035 or 1.120. They both will have a thin mouth feel and also be bone dry. One will make you smiley, and the other will degrease a battleship.

LOL! Hence...the back sweetening.

 

[bmd2k1]

I guess that's what I make too. LOL!

Simple recipe: 4.5 gls of Apple Juice and 2# cane sugar, Nottingham or Safale US-05 yeast.

[emoji111]

 

[SJBrews]

I do the same thing as you, and it definitely helps to cold crash it in the fridge for a couple days. Then bring it back to room temp before bottling. More yeast nutrient helps too. I'm just getting started with it, done 6 or 7 batches, but it's starting to get pretty good (good enough for the wife anyway, which is the main goal right?). I feel like quick cider is never going to be quite as good as the proper stuff, but it's so quick and easy to do that you can learn a lot (and drink a lot) in a short amount of time.

 

[schmurf]

Right, thanks, I will cold crash the next one for sure. And yes, actually it's mainly for the wife I'm making it even tho I don't mind a pint of a good cider myself sometimes...and if it's at home and good then I sure will start drinking more of it.

 

[SJBrews]

I also use the cold crash as a good time to add some hops, if you're into dry hopping.

Also, for the amount of yeast, I do 4L batches and only use 1/3 of a packet of yeast, and it's plenty to get the job done. Most yeast packets can do a 6 gallon batch, so scaling down this much you should be able to get away with even less than 1/3 in theory. That's probably not causing your problem, but you could save some yeast and get at least 3 batches out of a pack instead of 2.

 

[bernardsmith]

I also use the cold crash as a good time to add some hops, if you're into dry hopping.

Also, for the amount of yeast, I do 4L batches and only use 1/3 of a packet of yeast, and it's plenty to get the job done. Most yeast packets can do a 6 gallon batch, so scaling down this much you should be able to get away with even less than 1/3 in theory. That's probably not causing your problem, but you could save some yeast and get at least 3 batches out of a pack instead of 2.

Depending on the starting gravity 1 pack may be sufficient for 1 gallon. Probably far safer to add more apple juice to the lees you have racked from - and so treat the last batch as more or less a starter for the next batch than to refrigerate an opened pack of yeast. Of course , if the starting gravity was high and/or you stressed the yeast because of poor nutritional load then that approach is not good. But your fridge is full of bacteria and the humidity in the fridge is not the best environment to store an opened pack of yeast.

Home winemakers cannot really over-pitch but we tend to underpitch and think our yeast colony is larger than it is: simply pitching yeast can mean that you immediately lose about 1/3 of the viable bio-mass unless your rehydration protocol is good (which is probably why most cider makers on this forum consider hydrogen sulfide in their cider to be expected and quite normal).

 

[schmurf]

I've tried 3 bottles of this last cider I made now, and actually the yeasty flavour ain't that strong on this one. However it got hardly any carbonation at all, a tiny "pfft" as I open the bottle but that's it. Drinking it can't sense any carbonation. I never had this experience before...sure, carbonated too much or too little a couple of times, but never to the point that it's not present at all. I did my usual carbonation procedure (sugar solution in the bottles) and let it sit for 2+ weeks in room temp. Any suggestions what have happend?

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I use visual ques to decide when my beer is done. The one time I did cider it took 8 weeks to be done. It tasted great without any yeasty flavors. It primed fine and was one of my wife’s favorite brews that I have made so far. I didn’t add any nutrients or anything else. So maybe if you add nutrients you’ll get it turned around faster than 8 weeks, but it’s been my experience in beer that the yeast benefits from having at least 3 and sometimes 4 weeks to work.

 

[bernardsmith]

I'm not sure how to address your input without sounding like a Richard. All I can say is it comes out bone dry...not sweet at all.

Right but here's the irony. Alcohol is less dense than water. Yes? So an ABV of 5% with a gravity of .996 must have LESS residual sugar than a drink with an ABV of 15% with the same final gravity. So any claim that ADDING sugar makes a drink MORE dry flies in the face of reality. The gravity should be LOWER the more alcohol in solution. Now, of course the alcohol can over-balance the sweetness and flavor but that in and of itself does not mean that the drink is "drier". It is simply out of balance and may be full of fusels and other phenols.

 

[Genuine]

I've made some great cider with US-05 and S-04 and SafCider however I noticed you can't treat it like Beer. You need to give it a good month or 2 before kegging. I'll usually fine with gelatin and cold crash in keg.

 

[schmurf]

So I just cracked open 2 bottles of my latest cider, after taking advices I've got in here when brewing. Tastes very nice, I'm pleased with the flavour. But...of course a but in here...just like my batch before this one, the carbonation is almost zero. I bottle carbonate with table sugar, and leave it for 2 weeks in room temp. I don't want it too much carbonated, so it should be about 4 grams/Liter.
Any hints what's going on? Am I in too much hurry? Is there not enough yeast cells still kicking around to carbonate?