Northern Brewer Blog says you shouldn't Vorlauf.
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ohiobrewtus
Well-Known Member
Everyone does things a little differently when they brew, so articles/blogs like this are pretty common. Using HSA as an argument against a vorlauf seems pretty weak to me though.
I do agree on the author's other point, though. I never rehydrate dry yeast. I've never seen a real benefit in either attenuation, flavor/aroma profile or fermentation, so I deemed it unnecessary for me.
I do agree on the author's other point, though. I never rehydrate dry yeast. I've never seen a real benefit in either attenuation, flavor/aroma profile or fermentation, so I deemed it unnecessary for me.
ThreeTaps
Well-Known Member
So, with this you would conclude that rehydration of dry yeast is not a step worth taking? It's all I've ever done, but then again I've never -not- rehydrated, so I don't know the difference. I'm doing a Blonde next week (brew, that is...but my wife is blonde 
hah) so maybe I should try not rehydrating my nottingham. Think that's a wise decision?
Sorry to hijack the thread on vorlauf...which I love doing, so I'll continue.
EDIT:
After reading the article, I'm a little confused. As far as rehydrating yeast, are they recommending that you take some of your cooling wort and rehydrate with that, THEN pitch? Or simply pitch dry yeast on top in the primary without aerating (which I'm pretty certain is a necessary step)? In regards to the vorlauf part, I believe they're focusing on minimizing the fatty acid removal in US grains rather than HSA effects. What do you all think about not vorlaufing, for example, US 2-row? I've brewed with that stuff at least 6 times and every time I vorlaufed, and every batch tasted fantastic and had great yeast activity and everything else.
hah) so maybe I should try not rehydrating my nottingham. Think that's a wise decision? Sorry to hijack the thread on vorlauf...which I love doing, so I'll continue.
EDIT:
After reading the article, I'm a little confused. As far as rehydrating yeast, are they recommending that you take some of your cooling wort and rehydrate with that, THEN pitch? Or simply pitch dry yeast on top in the primary without aerating (which I'm pretty certain is a necessary step)? In regards to the vorlauf part, I believe they're focusing on minimizing the fatty acid removal in US grains rather than HSA effects. What do you all think about not vorlaufing, for example, US 2-row? I've brewed with that stuff at least 6 times and every time I vorlaufed, and every batch tasted fantastic and had great yeast activity and everything else.
kryolla
Well-Known Member
So, with this you would conclude that rehydration of dry yeast is not a step worth taking? It's all I've ever done, but then again I've never -not- rehydrated, so I don't know the difference. I'm doing a Blonde next week (brew, that is...but my wife is blonde
Sorry to hijack the thread on vorlauf...which I love doing, so I'll continue.
lallemand the maker of nottingham recommends rehydrating
mkorpal
Well-Known Member
So, with this you would conclude that rehydration of dry yeast is not a step worth taking? It's all I've ever done, but then again I've never -not- rehydrated, so I don't know the difference. I'm doing a Blonde next week (brew, that is...but my wife is blonde
Sorry to hijack the thread on vorlauf...which I love doing, so I'll continue.
EDIT:
After reading the article, I'm a little confused. As far as rehydrating yeast, are they recommending that you take some of your cooling wort and rehydrate with that, THEN pitch? Or simply pitch dry yeast on top in the primary without aerating (which I'm pretty certain is a necessary step)? In regards to the vorlauf part, I believe they're focusing on minimizing the fatty acid removal in US grains rather than HSA effects. What do you all think about not vorlaufing, for example, US 2-row? I've brewed with that stuff at least 6 times and every time I vorlaufed, and every batch tasted fantastic and had great yeast activity and everything else.
I believe they are implying that you just sprinkle on top of your wort. However, you should still aerate. They are saying that you simply don't need to stir the yeast in. I actually do it this way and it works just fine. The only times I rehydrate yeast is if I'm making a mead.
I think the chances of any detectable problems caused by HSA is extremely small, as long as you are careful. I have no knowledge of lipids, and their being affected by vorlaufing.
As far as rehydrating, both Danstar and Fermentiis websites recommend rehydrating. Fermentiis advises rehydrating in either water or wort. Danstar recommends water.
As far as rehydrating, both Danstar and Fermentiis websites recommend rehydrating. Fermentiis advises rehydrating in either water or wort. Danstar recommends water.
Almost seems like that blog post is just to stir up some ****. Their reasoning is very, very weak with no regard for the reasons those practices are in place. Let's see, is it better to strip some of the FAN or to kill half your yeast? Is it better to filter out some of the fatty acids or to end up boiling a bunch of husk material? Give me a break
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
RE: vorlauf
The reason they give is that it strips fatty acids out that the yeast need. I find it hard to believe that vorlaufing a quart or so of a 5 gallon batch strips so much fatty acids that the yeast suffer.
Also, if what they say is true then wouldn't all the RIMS/HERMS brewers be stripping those fatty acids during their entire recirculation?
The reason they give is that it strips fatty acids out that the yeast need. I find it hard to believe that vorlaufing a quart or so of a 5 gallon batch strips so much fatty acids that the yeast suffer.
Also, if what they say is true then wouldn't all the RIMS/HERMS brewers be stripping those fatty acids during their entire recirculation?
When using dry yeast you don't need to aerate.
Say what??
mkorpal
Well-Known Member
Why is that. There is no difference between liquid and dry yeast other than cell count. So, why would you not need to aerate a dry yeast when you would with a liquid yeast after making a starter. Maybe there is something I am missing?
legaleagle
Well-Known Member
In regards to rehydrating dry yeast, I have had this experience with Nottingham over the course of the past 5 months: 6 beers all pretty much the same basic receipe and the OG on all were similar and all pitched on a 65 degree wort. 4 I rehydrated and 2 I did not rehydrate (just sprinkled onto wort). All 4 that were hydrated showed fermintation signs within 8 to 14 hours and were done in the next 24 hours; of the 2 I sprinkled, 1 did not show any fermentation signs until about 40 hours later when it finally took off and the other one never showed any fermentation signs after about 60 hours, at which time I became worried and added rehydrated S-05 and it took off after an additional 8 hours. Since then, I have used S-05 and S-04 a couple of times without rehydrating and each has taken off within 12-14 hours each time. So, to me the lesson seemed pretty clear: when I use Nottingham, I ALWAYS rehydrate; if I use S-05 or S-04, I can sprinkle or rehydrate at my option. As for the whys, wherefores and whatnots for this, I have no idea.
Macushla-Homebrew
Member
HSA as an argument against a vorlauf doens't add up for myself either. I don't have any issues vorlaufing, however if people are experiencing the possible side effects that were originally posted, then maybe they can look at there vorlaufing process, try and change it, and see if it solves the issue. I think we all come across different ways of doing things and some ways work for some and not others...if there is anything to takeaway from this its more of a possible answer to a problem. I am actually brewing for the first time ever on our newly completed RIMS system...we'll see what happens.
As far as Yeast goes, I never hydrate when using dry yeast, I make starters for all liquid yeast, and no matter what aeration always takes place b2efore pitching.
As far as Yeast goes, I never hydrate when using dry yeast, I make starters for all liquid yeast, and no matter what aeration always takes place b2efore pitching.
I brew on a HERMS and usually recirculate my mash for 30-40 mins (although I have recirculated for the full hour of the mash before). My fermentations are always healthy and my yeast attenuate fine. as far as off-flavors, i have entered a pale ale into a BJCP comp recently that had no off-flavors according to two judges. So based on my experience, I'm not changing my process.
My sparge also drops 3ft into the kettle from the mash tun. HSA is a myth IMO.
Watch this video starting at 5:20, you think Allagash worries about HSA? most breweries don't..
My sparge also drops 3ft into the kettle from the mash tun. HSA is a myth IMO.
Watch this video starting at 5:20, you think Allagash worries about HSA? most breweries don't..
Last edited by a moderator:
kryolla
Well-Known Member
cell count on dry yeast is a lot higher than liquid
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
rico567
Well-Known Member
Most of my batches (maybe 40) have been done with liquid yeast (Wyeast). I've done 4 or five of those with Nottingham and S-05, because that's what the recipe called for. My first dry yeast batch was with Nottingham, and I rehydrated according to the package directions, and everything went fine. The others I just sprinkled on top of the wort in the fermenter after I ærated it, largely because one of the recipes said to. Nothing much unusual happened....I still got pretty much normal fermentation results. So I guess I'm just sprinkling on the dry yeast, when I use it, until I have some reason to rehydrate.
Rundownhouse
Well-Known Member
Here's a good article on rehydration. Excerpt:
"For the initial few minutes (perhaps seconds) of rehydration, the yeast
cell wall cannot differentiate what passes through the wall. Toxic
materials like sprays, hops, SO2 and sugars in high levels, that the yeast
normally can selectively keep from passing through its cell wall rush right
in and seriously damage the cells. The moment that the cell wall is
properly reconstituted, the yeast can then regulate what goes in and out of
the cell. That is why we hesitate to recommend rehydration in wort or
must."
"For the initial few minutes (perhaps seconds) of rehydration, the yeast
cell wall cannot differentiate what passes through the wall. Toxic
materials like sprays, hops, SO2 and sugars in high levels, that the yeast
normally can selectively keep from passing through its cell wall rush right
in and seriously damage the cells. The moment that the cell wall is
properly reconstituted, the yeast can then regulate what goes in and out of
the cell. That is why we hesitate to recommend rehydration in wort or
must."
Exactly my take on it.
I am not a believer in HSA, at least not that it's a big deal. I try to minimize splashing, just in case, but I'm not anal about it. Given that so many think that HSA is bunk, I think I'm in good company.
Regarding the breaking down of fatty acids, I'd like more than someone saying a short "don't do this"; I want to know the mechanism by which these fatty acids are broken down. Personally, I think this statement is completely full of bull crap, but if a good explanation is available, I'm all ears.
andy777
Well-Known Member
I don't really vorlauf. There's no need with my mash tun. It's usually running clear after the first pint or so of wort so why bother? As for rehydrating dry yeast, it just adds more water to the wort unnecessarily. If I'm using dry yeast I don't bother with that, either. A starter is needed with liquid or washed yeast, though.
andy777
Well-Known Member
A half cup of water isn't going to dilute your beer in a meaningful way, so that's not a reason to skip rehydration. As to 'why bother': many argue that the dead yeast cells can cause off flavors. I'm not convinced about that, but if I'm spending 4 hours brewing, I'm not going to cut corners, especially on anything that directly affects fermentation.
Do you sterilize the water you use to rehydrate? Then continue that rehydration in a sterile environment?
andy777
Well-Known Member
When I use dry yeast (which is not often), I boil said water in my flask, cool and then sprinkle the yeast. I let sit, with no shaking or stirring, for about a half hour before pitching.
Which, interestingly enough, is my gelatin regimen. Boil, cool to 150, sprinkle, let sit, pitch.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
Same here. I even boil the 1/2 pint mason jar and tip of thermometer I use to rehydrate/gelatin in the water. Cover with plastic wrap.
lamarguy
Well-Known Member
That blog is the worst bunch of unsubstantiated gibberish I've read in a while...
fatduck
Active Member
Yet another reason to shop at Midwest instead...
chs9
Well-Known Member
In 7 out of 7 batches, I've pitched non-rehydrated wet yeast (wyeast or white labs) and i have not had any problems. I'm not saying rehydrating is a bad practice, but it's not totally necessary in my experience.
Something I don't understand from this thread - how does rehydrating get rid of dead yeast cells? Aren't they in the starter, which is then pitched into the wort?
Something I don't understand from this thread - how does rehydrating get rid of dead yeast cells? Aren't they in the starter, which is then pitched into the wort?
The theory is that allowing the dry yeast to rehydrate in the wort can allow stuff into the cells that ought not be there. By rehydrating in water, you prevent this. Once the cell is hydrated, it can regulate what passes through it's membranes.
Rehydrating doesn't keep the dead cells from the packet from going into the fermenter, it prevents additional, viable cells from being killed by the wort.
I don't understand the mechanism behind the supposed loss of fatty acids via the vorlauf. Actually I do understand the mechanisms, but don't think their statement is correct.
Why would the recirculated fatty acids in the wort now magically stick to the husk after merely being pulled out and then pulled back in? I've run many, many chromatographic columns of all sorts, and this is basically the same process with the husks and other materials acting as the column bed. For this kind of chromatography (sparging), once something is dissolved, it will stay dissolved and flow out of the column (grain bed). If you return it to the column (vorlauf), it still will stay dissolved.
Imagine taking a container and dipping it into the mash, then letting the grains settle, and then pouring the wort back into the mash tun (basically what happens in a vorlauf). Now the fatty acids in the wort are now going to stick to the husks in the tun?
If one is not getting enough fatty acids, then one has a mashing and/or malt problem, not a sparge problem.
Why would the recirculated fatty acids in the wort now magically stick to the husk after merely being pulled out and then pulled back in? I've run many, many chromatographic columns of all sorts, and this is basically the same process with the husks and other materials acting as the column bed. For this kind of chromatography (sparging), once something is dissolved, it will stay dissolved and flow out of the column (grain bed). If you return it to the column (vorlauf), it still will stay dissolved.
Imagine taking a container and dipping it into the mash, then letting the grains settle, and then pouring the wort back into the mash tun (basically what happens in a vorlauf). Now the fatty acids in the wort are now going to stick to the husks in the tun?
If one is not getting enough fatty acids, then one has a mashing and/or malt problem, not a sparge problem.
Rehydration refers to dry yeast, not liquid. Liquid cultures are already hydrated.
chs9
Well-Known Member
Ah, absolutely. What I meant was that I didn't make starters, my mistake.
Judge
Well-Known Member
Hmmm? Strange! I've never rehydrated dry yeast and I always vorlauf. Never had a problem that I could trace to either practice.
