New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[BeerFst]

Really? That's so disappointing to hear, Equilibrium are one of my favorite brewery's. I haven't been able to get anything from the over the last few months as nothing as seemed to make it over to Europe. Is this down to expansion issue? I really hate when I order some Other Half stuff for around $10-$15 a can and when I open the box I'm greeted with the DC green ring pull. Dc's beers are garbage. OH are at a beer festival here in Ireland next weekend and wondering where their supply will be coming from.

I used to agree, but I've had some solid beers out of there like Tomato Party, i think they tend to do better at their own beers than replicating Brooklyn classics. Not work 10-15 bucks a can though, that's a little crazy. I think they are coming around, though I would certainly rather see an All Citra Everything with a black pop top.

@Dgallo can't say i was ever the hugest fan of equilibrium always a bit on the sweet side, but I grabbed a 4 pack of Hydrophillic at the store the other week cause the cans were less than 2 weeks old, but man are you right, zero expression. Allegedly used YCH survivables mix plus rakau and citra dry hop but it was just generically pithy and nothing impressive on the aroma front.

 

[Dgallo]

Just tapped my latest Double NEIPA coming in at 8.5% ABV. Simple grain bill of 2row and malted oats, 2nd generation Imperial Juice (LAIII), hotside hopped with Motueka and NZ Cascade and heavily Dryhopped with Citra LUPOMAX, Motueka, Wai-iti, and a touch of Nelson

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Just tapped my latest Double NEIPA coming in at 8.5% ABV. Simple grain bill of 2row and malted oats, 2nd generation Imperial Juice (LAIII), hotside hopped with Motueka and NZ Cascade and heavily Dryhopped with Citra LUPOMAX, Motueka, Wai-iti, and a touch of Nelson
View attachment 774803

Looks great. Never tried Wai-tai whatcha think it’s bringing to the table from this hop?

 

[Dgallo]

Looks great. Never tried Wai-tai whatcha think it’s bringing to the table from this hop?

This was my first time using it as the lead in dryhoping. I got fleshy white peach and nectarine. It’s nice. No NZ diesel

 

[Dgallo]

If anyone is interested

 

[Ulisses4677]

Just tapped my latest Double NEIPA coming in at 8.5% ABV. Simple grain bill of 2row and malted oats, 2nd generation Imperial Juice (LAIII), hotside hopped with Motueka and NZ Cascade and heavily Dryhopped with Citra LUPOMAX, Motueka, Wai-iti, and a touch of

Just tapped my latest Double NEIPA coming in at 8.5% ABV. Simple grain bill of 2row and malted oats, 2nd generation Imperial Juice (LAIII), hotside hopped with Motueka and NZ Cascade and heavily Dryhopped with Citra LUPOMAX, Motueka, Wai-iti, and a touch of Nelson
View attachment 774803

how does the Nz cascade differentiate from pacific Nw cascade? I’ve been wanting to try it out myself.

 

[Dgallo]

@Ulisses4677 besides being called cascade, they have pretty much nothing in common. NZ cascade is very tropical/melon like. It’s not overly potent, at least on the hotside that is, but it is very nice

 

[BeerFst]

NZ cascade is also called Taheike, i wonder if that's a trade name for a certain producer and not usable by others.

Terroir is not given nearly enough credit in hops compared to grapes. While i dont have direct experience, I've read michigan-grown chinook can be very pineapple forward compared to the classic northwest grown stuff. Mighty Axe hops is based out of Minnesota and this is how they are trying to market the fact that they can't grow the big named hops that are under patent. Their Tropica is really just chinook and Julius is just cascade but display certain qualities under their growing conditions.

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

If anyone is interested
View attachment 774863

The 12oz of Golden Promise seems like an odd add. Doesn’t seem like such a small % of a second base malt would add much of anything that would be detectable to the palate.

 

[Dgallo]

The 12oz of Golden Promise seems like an odd add. Doesn’t seem like such a small % of a second base malt would add much of anything that would be detectable to the palate.

I thought the same. Doesn’t seem like it would truly be the recipe or was a typo and was supposed to be Golden Naked Oats

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

I thought the same. Doesn’t seem like it would truly be the recipe or was a typo and was supposed to be Golden Naked Oats

Golden Naked Oats would make more sense.

 

[jturman35]

It’s been over six months since I brewed. This one is going to be killer. So smooth and perfect bitterness, will be interesting to see what the 24hr DH charge brings to the table!

Stole the recipe from Dgallo!

1.077 - 1.016

.5oz Magnum @ 60
1oz Strata @ 10
1oz Galaxy @ 10

3oz Strata WP
1oz Galaxy WP

DH
6oz Cashmere
2oz strata
2oz galaxy

 

[Noob_Brewer]

It’s been over six months since I brewed. This one is going to be killer. So smooth and perfect bitterness, will be interesting to see what the 24hr DH charge brings to the table!

Stole the recipe from Dgallo!

1.077 - 1.016

6oz Cashmere
2oz strata
2oz galaxy

View attachment 774871

Ive always enjoyed tasting the hydro sample pre-dry hop to get an idea on how I did on the hot side of things from the hopping point of view especially if the DH dry hops are different. What did ya use on the hot side for hops?

EDIT: NVM, the hot side hops didn't show up for some reason when I saw this on my phone. lol

 

[elproducto]

I brewed this recipe with Equanot/Citra/Vic Secret 3:2:1. Only hops were whirlpool/dry hop. I've brewed this beer, or a variation of it dozens of times...
The bitterness with this particular batch is quite harsh, lingering astrigency that I think is Vic Secret's fault. It's the second beer I've brewed with Vic Secret that had a real harsh edge to it.

Am I imagining things?

Edit: I just looked back at my notes. Normally I do a short 2 day dry hop, but this one sat on the dry hop for 5 days as I was travelling for work. Maybe that's why I have this harshness.

 

[Dgallo]

I brewed this recipe with Equanot/Citra/Vic Secret 3:2:1. Only hops were whirlpool/dry hop. I've brewed this beer, or a variation of it dozens of times...
The bitterness with this particular batch is quite harsh, lingering astrigency that I think is Vic Secret's fault. It's the second beer I've brewed with Vic Secret that had a real harsh edge to it.

Am I imagining things?

Edit: I just looked back at my notes. Normally I do a short 2 day dry hop, but this one sat on the dry hop for 5 days as I was travelling for work. Maybe that's why I have this harshness.

Vic secret (all AU hops really) are high in polyphenols. If you dryhoped for an extended period of time and at room temperature, you most likely got hop creep and the refermentstion caused hop burn

 

[Noob_Brewer]

If anyone is interested
View attachment 774863

Thats an interesting article @Dgallo . I read the whole thing. Aside from the weird 12oz of golden promise, I was surprised to see only about ~15% flaked oats on the grain bill and the article also says they only use about ~20% oats. I thought, from my experience having a few of their beers that they were in the 30-40% range. The other surprise to me was the higher mash temp suggested 155F. They expect 80% AA from 1.075-1.015 at that high a mash from LAIII? Nevertheless, I think I might try mashing a little higher to see what it brings. Water profile is a bit weird to me as they say "calcium chloride" to 125ppm. So does this mean BOTH Ca and Cl are 125ppm? I typically am getting about 175Cl to 110 S04 so these pumps are a bit lower. Not sure that would make a big difference but again I could be wrong. If you read the paragraph right before "on their own terms" its also clear they only DH after fermentation is complete and do a soft crash (something I thought only us lowly home brewers did lol).

Again, after the 2-3 beers I've tried from them, the IPAs are incredibly soft, GREAT lasting foam, Hazy, and flavors are eye-popping. So Lots of good stuff here to think about.

 

[Beerdrinker85]

I just ordered a couple oz to check it out since I hadn’t used it yet.

So I brewed 3 neipa and used crypop at 3 differents stage.

1: WP(20%)+DH (80%)
2: DH only cryo 6 oz (100%)
3: DH Citra Lupomax 2oz pack + DH Cryo Pop 4oz
no bio

TLDR those CryoPop are a real cheat code for ultra fruity neipa with 0 vegetable. If you have problems with harshness in your neipas, it will solve it big time.

I found that mixing up cryopop with others hop works better. (at least citra lupomax)

I have a I7 + Cry pop going on and a Kolsch with 100% 1oz of cryopop. just testing things for fun.

 

[Frieds]

Thats an interesting article @Dgallo . I read the whole thing. Aside from the weird 12oz of golden promise, I was surprised to see only about ~15% flaked oats on the grain bill and the article also says they only use about ~20% oats. I thought, from my experience having a few of their beers that they were in the 30-40% range. The other surprise to me was the higher mash temp suggested 155F. They expect 80% AA from 1.075-1.015 at that high a mash from LAIII? Nevertheless, I think I might try mashing a little higher to see what it brings. Water profile is a bit weird to me as they say "calcium chloride" to 125ppm. So does this mean BOTH Ca and Cl are 125ppm? I typically am getting about 175Cl to 110 S04 so these pumps are a bit lower. Not sure that would make a big difference but again I could be wrong. If you read the paragraph right before "on their own terms" its also clear they only DH after fermentation is complete and do a soft crash (something I thought only us lowly home brewers did lol).

Again, after the 2-3 beers I've tried from them, the IPAs are incredibly soft, GREAT lasting foam, Hazy, and flavors are eye-popping. So Lots of good stuff here to think about.

Between this and the CB&B podcast recently with Slice brewing as well as another one recently that I can’t remember the name of, it seems that there’s a few breweries out there that are making some high quality beer whilst still keeping their chloride/sulfate/calcium ions relatively low.

I’m actually brewing right now and made a last minute decision to scale back on the brewing salts after reading the Fidens article. I know that there is more factors to their beer as a whole than just what they do with the brewing salts but I’ve been pushing Chlorides up to 275ppm recently and I’m still looking for that perfect balance. Interested in seeing if I can find any discernible difference.

 

[Dgallo]

Thats an interesting article @Dgallo . I read the whole thing. Aside from the weird 12oz of golden promise, I was surprised to see only about ~15% flaked oats on the grain bill and the article also says they only use about ~20% oats. I thought, from my experience having a few of their beers that they were in the 30-40% range. The other surprise to me was the higher mash temp suggested 155F. They expect 80% AA from 1.075-1.015 at that high a mash from LAIII? Nevertheless, I think I might try mashing a little higher to see what it brings. Water profile is a bit weird to me as they say "calcium chloride" to 125ppm. So does this mean BOTH Ca and Cl are 125ppm? I typically am getting about 175Cl to 110 S04 so these pumps are a bit lower. Not sure that would make a big difference but again I could be wrong. If you read the paragraph right before "on their own terms" its also clear they only DH after fermentation is complete and do a soft crash (something I thought only us lowly home brewers did lol).

Again, after the 2-3 beers I've tried from them, the IPAs are incredibly soft, GREAT lasting foam, Hazy, and flavors are eye-popping. So Lots of good stuff here to think about.

Yeah, I personally can’t imagine the currently 4th ranked micro brewery in the US would give the actual recipe out, I’m sure it’s close enough to work with and make a solid beer. I have yet to break the barrier with them and get close enough with Steve or Allen(I talk to him more as we are both into mushroom foraging) to get full recipe details. I asked too many questions early on and I was either annoying or to forward lol but they are great guys and I share my beers with them from time to time (I’m actually bringing 3 beers to them next week)

From what I do know, Steve really respects and admires other half. I would imagine (this is just a guess) he brews similarly to them. Other half has bigger bodies and tends to use a large amount of oats. Other half also shared a water profile for their industry workers National collab, and if I recall correctly the Cl ppm suggested was 300 or close to it with S04 being 125-150 ish.

Again I just find it hard to believe they would give out the true, production recipe

 

[Frieds]

Yeah, I personally can’t imagine the currently 4th ranked micro brewery in the US would give the actual recipe out, I’m sure it’s close enough to work with and make a solid beer. I have yet to break the barrier with them and get close enough with Steve or Allen(I talk to him more as we are both into mushroom foraging) to get full recipe details. I asked too many questions early on and I was either annoying or to forward lol but they are great guys and I share my beers with them from time to time (I’m actually bringing 3 beers to them next week)

From what I do know, Steve really respects and admires other half. I would imagine (this is just a guess) he brews similarly to them. Other half has bigger bodies and tends to use a large amount of oats. Other half also shared a water profile for their industry workers National collab, and if I recall correctly the Cl ppm suggested was 300 or close to it with S04 being 125-150 ish.

Again I just find it hard to believe they would give out the true, production recipe

This could very well just be a very early iteration of the recipe that they used to brew in their shed at home. Either way, even if this is the actual recipe, nothing in it is groundbreaking and I highly doubt it would produce anywhere near a beer of Fidens quality if I brewed it at home.

 

[aaronm13]

Interesting Interview with Paul from Cloudwater in the UK about designing and brewing a DIPA. Their dry hop rates are interesting at around 24g per liter which works out about 16oz for 5 gallons. I've really experimented with different rates over the years and always felt the 8-10oz dry hop just left me wanting more and a little underwhelmed but on my last two brews I'm pushing 14-16oz and the beers are definitely more what I want from a DIPA. Just losses are insane and you have to be so careful with getting vegetal off flavors which I have gotten before at such high rates. Soft crashing and dry hopping cooler has really helped with that aspect.

 

[Dgallo]

Interesting Interview with Paul from Cloudwater in the UK about designing and brewing a DIPA. Their dry hop rates are interesting at around 24g per liter which works out about 16oz for 5 gallons. I've really experimented with different rates over the years and always felt the 8-10oz dry hop just left me wanting more and a little underwhelmed but on my last two brews I'm pushing 14-16oz and the beers are definitely more what I want from a DIPA. Just losses are insane and you have to be so careful with getting vegetal off flavors which I have gotten before at such high rates. Soft crashing and dry hopping cooler has really helped with that aspect.

That’s a big dryhop load but not unheard of. It’s about 6.2 lb/bbl. A lot of big name breweries like monkish, other half, aslin go up to 8 (I think other half has gone up to 15lb/bbl but that was an equivalence rate) I personally will not exceed 5lb/bbl. My last beer was under that amount and I can’t imagine more hop character in the beer.

Granted I have been fortunate enough to source some handselected NZ hops from a contact in the industry, so maybe that’s why I’m getting such big character but at the same time Cloudwater has some serious hop contracts so they should be sourcing similar or better hops

 

[aaronm13]

That’s a big dryhop load but not unheard of. It’s about 6.2 lb/bbl. A lot of big name breweries like monkish, other half, aslin go up to 8 (I think other half has gone up to 15lb/bbl but that was an equivalence rate) I personally will not exceed 5lb/bbl. My last beer was under that amount and I can’t imagine more hop character in the beer.

Granted I have been fortunate enough to source some handselected NZ hops from a contact in the industry, so maybe that’s why I’m getting such big character but at the same time Cloudwater has some serious hop contracts so they should be sourcing similar or better hops

Their beers certainly pack a hop punch and are top tier for this style. What is 5lb/bbl in oz for 5 gallons for example? With your hand selected hops you probably can get away with dialing back the hop amounts. The best I can get is ordering from Yakima Valley. The hops in my LHBS are pretty bad and would have to use 30oz in a beer to get the same impact.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

What is 5lb/bbl in oz for 5 gallons for example?

I believe that 1 lb/bbl is about 0.5 oz per gallon so 2.5 oz per 5 gallon. So 5 lb/bbl would be 12.5 oz per 5 gallon.

 

[beervoid]

That’s a big dryhop load but not unheard of. It’s about 6.2 lb/bbl. A lot of big name breweries like monkish, other half, aslin go up to 8 (I think other half has gone up to 15lb/bbl but that was an equivalence rate) I personally will not exceed 5lb/bbl. My last beer was under that amount and I can’t imagine more hop character in the beer.

Granted I have been fortunate enough to source some handselected NZ hops from a contact in the industry, so maybe that’s why I’m getting such big character but at the same time Cloudwater has some serious hop contracts so they should be sourcing similar or better hops

15lb per barrel!
I challenge them to do that with a single hop galaxy, I don't think there are many hops that you can go that high on and still make a drinkable beer.
Tree House find the limit went very high as well, not sure where they are now. To the moon!

 

[Dgallo]

15lb per barrel!
I challenge them to do that with a single hop galaxy, I don't think there are many hops that you can go that high on and still make a drinkable beer.
Tree House find the limit went very high as well, not sure where they are now. To the moon!

The most recent treehouse I had was 22 lb/bbl and it wasn’t very good. That said they are def using products like spectrum, cryo or LUPOMAX, and any others that might be available to them, and then marketing it as what the amount would work out to be if they were t90.

 

[beervoid]

The most recent treehouse I had was 22 lb/bbl and it wasn’t very good. That said they are def using products like spectrum, cryo or LUPOMAX, and any others that might be available to them, and then marketing it as what the amount would work out to be if they were t90

I think 24gr a liter is the end. Anything after that just needs more time to be drinkable and then you could argue its a waste of hops cause these beers are meant to be drank fresh.
Highest beer I had was a monkish cloudwater collab at 48gr/liter, it was allright but I prefer more brighter flavors, there was this overpowering raw hoppyness.

 

[aaronm13]

I believe that 1 lb/bbl is about 0.5 oz per gallon so 2.5 oz per 5 gallon. So 5 lb/bbl would be 12.5 oz per 5 gallon.

Thanks. I'm not great with imperial conversions.

 

[aaronm13]

I think 24gr a liter is the end. Anything after that just needs more time to be drinkable and then you could argue its a waste of hops cause these beers are meant to be drank fresh.
Highest beer I had was a monkish cloudwater collab at 48gr/liter, it was allright but I prefer more brighter flavors, there was this overpowering raw hoppyness.

Highest I've had is 45g/L by some Slovenian brewery. It was ok but nothing standoutish. I'm sure certain brewery's can get a lot more out of X amount of hops than others with their processes.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Just losses are insane and you have to be so careful with getting vegetal off flavors which I have gotten before at such high rates. Soft crashing and dry hopping cooler has really helped with that aspect.

This is where the professional kit like centrifuges can really help - and they had access to some of the more advanced hop products long before homebrewers did.

I know I've posted this before but it may be helpful in the context of the Cloudwater interview - in 2018 they went back to the early series of DIPAs that really made their name in 2016 or so, and did a new version knowing what they now knew - and published a recipe, and in other blogs they gave a reasonable idea of their process - it's the Google Sheets link in this blog :
https://cloudwaterbrew.co/blog/2018/4/30/how-far-we-have-come

 

[TBryerton]

I thought the same. Doesn’t seem like it would truly be the recipe or was a typo and was supposed to be Golden Naked Oats

That was my first thought as well. In my experience, if I brew that exact recipe it will taste nothing like Jasper.

@Dgallo I haven’t been following this thread as heavily lately but remember you like LUPOMAX. Curious if you still like it. I’ve been doing 2 to 1 pellet/LUPO DH but haven’t compared it to all pellet. Interested in others peoples thoughts on LUPO.

 

[Dgallo]

That was my first thought as well. In my experience, if I brew that exact recipe it will taste nothing like Jasper.

@Dgallo I haven’t been following this thread as heavily lately but remember you like LUPOMAX. Curious if you still like it. I’ve been doing 2 to 1 pellet/LUPO DH but haven’t compared it to all pellet. Interested in others peoples thoughts on LUPO.

I really like LUPOMAX, especially Citra. I pretty much layer it into all my ipas. I’m about 2:1 like you most times but I’ve been upping it lately. I’m def a fan

On a similar note, Idk if you saw some of the new info coming out from omega on their thiolized yeast, but it’s showing that using T90 hops on the hotside, specifically whirlpool, and early fermentation is actually causing the muting of the Thiols. They suggest using all cryo or similar product on the hotside when using cosmic punch or Starparty. So this amount my increase for me as I’ve just started dabbling into thiolized yeast

 

[TBryerton]

I really like LUPOMAX, especially Citra. I pretty much layer it into all my ipas. I’m about 2:1 like you most times but I’ve been upping it lately. I’m def a fan

On a similar note, Idk if you saw some of the new info coming out from omega on their thiolized yeast, but it’s showing that using T90 hops on the hotside, specifically whirlpool, and early fermentation is actually causing the muting of the Thiols. They suggest using all cryo or similar product on the hotside when using cosmic punch or Starparty. So this amount my increase for me as I’ve just started dabbling into thiolized yeast

That’s really interesting. I missed that. I think I'm typically heavier on the hot side than most. I’ll try moving LUPO to the hot side and all T90 DH. I don’t think I get too much from WP - I’ve been lowering those amounts and pushing them to late boil.

Where is everyone getting cone hops these days? Last I checked YVH was out of most.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Was wondering if anyone has tried this yeast before: Funktown Pale Ale — The Yeast Bay. it seems to be Yeast Bay's version of Imperial Dry Hop A24 as both are blends of Connan (A24) or a "Vermont" yeast (Yeast bay) along with a diastaticus yeast. Looks interesting as A24 is still my go-to overall. Anyone tried Yeast Bay's Funktown Pale Ale?

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I really like LUPOMAX, especially Citra. I pretty much layer it into all my ipas. I’m about 2:1 like you most times but I’ve been upping it lately. I’m def a fan

On a similar note, Idk if you saw some of the new info coming out from omega on their thiolized yeast, but it’s showing that using T90 hops on the hotside, specifically whirlpool, and early fermentation is actually causing the muting of the Thiols. They suggest using all cryo or similar product on the hotside when using cosmic punch or Starparty. So this amount my increase for me as I’ve just started dabbling into thiolized yeast

So having used Cosmic Punch several times and always mash hopped with T90 and used mostly T90 on the hot side, I was SHOCKED at how fruity this beer was even when I just tested the hydro sample pre-dry hop. For the first time brewing NEIPAs, I thought to myself "this might be too fruity for my taste". So I can't imagine the Omega reports of T90 muting the thiols. Just how fruity can we get? lol. I love what Omega is doing overall, but gosh - cosmic punch is already a FRUIT BOMB regardless of what form your hops are on the hot side.

 

[Dgallo]

So having used Cosmic Punch several times and always mash hopped with T90 and used mostly T90 on the hot side, I was SHOCKED at how fruity this beer was even when I just tested the hydro sample pre-dry hop. For the first time brewing NEIPAs, I thought to myself "this might be too fruity for my taste". So I can't imagine the Omega reports of T90 muting the thiols. Just how fruity can we get? lol. I love what Omega is doing overall, but gosh - cosmic punch is already a FRUIT BOMB regardless of what form your hops are on the hot side.

Here’s my direct email from omega if you want to read it.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Here’s my direct email from omega if you want to read it.
View attachment 775208View attachment 775207View attachment 775209

Thanks for sharing. I was just a little shocked because even with using T90 on hot side cosmic punch is still banging on the fruit wagon SOOOO much more than other yeasts. Again, I was shocked at how fruity it was with cascade and/or Simcoe in the mash hops. It is already INTENSE fruit even if T90 are "squelching"the thiols from whirlpool, I imagine the thiols are still an order of magnitude larger than with any other yeast that can't free those bound thiols from the malt. Still, I'll probably try their route at some point just because lol.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I used cosmic punch once and put 4 oz of idaho 7 in the mash. I forget exactly what else I used but I know I dry hopped with a good amount of galaxy. The resulting beer was SOOO ridiculously Sauvignon Blanc forward that I never had any interest using it again. There was ZERO hint of galaxy at all. I remember enjoying the beer, but having no interest in using that yeast again because it was so over the top one note. Maybe I’ll revisit it but I agree that it’s insanely powerful and can more than completely dominate the character of a beer. Thiols are cool and all, but I also like to smell and taste the other, more traditional characteristics of hops.

 

[chieftain]

Interesting Interview with Paul from Cloudwater in the UK about designing and brewing a DIPA. Their dry hop rates are interesting at around 24g per liter which works out about 16oz for 5 gallons. I've really experimented with different rates over the years and always felt the 8-10oz dry hop just left me wanting more and a little underwhelmed but on my last two brews I'm pushing 14-16oz and the beers are definitely more what I want from a DIPA. Just losses are insane and you have to be so careful with getting vegetal off flavors which I have gotten before at such high rates. Soft crashing and dry hopping cooler has really helped with that aspect.

I was just in London, and hit the Cloudwater taproom in Enid Street. Wow! Tremendous soft body, great hop character, and excellent aroma. Awesome stuff.

 

[Beenym88]

Thanks for sharing. I was just a little shocked because even with using T90 on hot side cosmic punch is still banging on the fruit wagon SOOOO much more than other yeasts. Again, I was shocked at how fruity it was with cascade and/or Simcoe in the mash hops. It is already INTENSE fruit even if T90 are "squelching"the thiols from whirlpool, I imagine the thiols are still an order of magnitude larger than with any other yeast that can't free those bound thiols from the malt. Still, I'll probably try their route at some point just because lol.

I had the same experience