New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[HopsAreGood]

2 years ago a did a side by side batch with the 10.5oz of hops in each. Each got .5oz of warrior at 60 mins and the it was 5 oz of Citra and 5 oz of mosaic.

Beer 1 added all the hops at 160*f whirlpool for 40 mins.

Beer 2 added the hops in a double dryhop with 2.5oz of Citra and mosaic with 5 days left to packaging and again with 3 days. I did not softcrash my beers at this point in my brewing.

Both beers were significantly missing something.

The whirlpool addition was obviously more bitter but had more upfront flavor and finished with bitterness but it seemed miss a strong hop flavor. Aroma was lighter

The dryhop only beer was less bitter and had more aroma on the noise but really only had flavor upfront and then it quickly faded to being bland. It was softer overall than the whirlpool version.

My take away from this is that some amount of hops are needed in each step to have a full flavored beer. I think I mentioned this in this thread recently but I’ve found that 10%-20% of hops in boil 30-40% in whirlpool and 50-60% in dryhop is where I feel I get the best final product. I do understand that that is more anecdotal than quantitative evidence but it certainly has worked great for me

I agree with this 100%

 

[HopsAreGood]

Here is a 100% dry hopped beer from a local brewery appropriately named cold side. It’s definitely a good beer but to me it absolutely lacks the dimension you get from kettle and whirlpool additions.

 

[Genuine]

The next batch I do, I'm going to reserve some whirlpool hops for a shorter whirlpool contact time....sub 10 minutes before being chilled and sent to the fermentor. I wonder what flavor compounds could be captured from that.

 

[stickyfinger]

Maybe it’s finally time to do that hopstand + dryhop vs dryhop only comparison... I think I’d just keep the dryhop exactly the same between the two but add 1 oz/gal hopstand hops to one. I could drain off half and then heat up the rest and do a hop stand then drain that off.

i could add in a 10 minute addition on the hopstand half but it would require heating the wort back up to boiling and boiling an extra 10 minutes so the IBUs will be different between the two.
The other option is to do two back to back boils. Probably not gonna happen lol!

 

[Dgallo]

Maybe it’s finally time to do that hopstand + dryhop vs dryhop only comparison... I think I’d just keep the dryhop exactly the same between the two but add 1 oz/gal hopstand hops to one. I could drain off half and then heat up the rest and do a hop stand then drain that off.

i could add in a 10 minute addition on the hopstand half but it would require heating the wort back up to boiling and boiling an extra 10 minutes so the IBUs will be different between the two.
The other option is to do two back to back boils. Probably not gonna happen lol!

You’d have to keep the same amount of hops is both recipes though. If you just dry hopped one with 5 oz and then the other beer gets the same amount of dryhop but also gets hops in whirlpool, it won’t give you valid results because the whirlpool + dryhoped will have more hops and more flavor

 

[lowtones84]

It’s funny I totally have a sweet tooth but I don’t really like sweet beer. Or at least beer that’s really heavy on the palate. I can handle thicker beers but as long as they’re not cloying. That’s not even the issue I’ve had with the “milkshake” IPAs I’ve had. They just al seem really poorly constructed. Everything seems out of place.

I agree. To my palate, vanilla just doesn't go with any hop combination ever. And that amount of lactose makes me want to just pour it down the drain, every single one I've had. Including some of the hyped NY area ones. If folks like it, cool, it's apparently selling. I just can't get behind it.

 

[lowtones84]

Doesn't it seem like residual gravity points, carbonation and yeast choice have way more of an effect on mouthfeel than flaked adjuncts? I haven't used flaked adjuncts in an NEIPA for months.

I might also add mash regimen if using unmalted adjuncts. Not NEIPA, but I make a 30%ish unmalted spelt saison. FG is always under 1.000 but the mouthfeel is amazingly full and round. Usually do 4 steps, starting with a protein rest. Have dropped it even further for an acid rest, too.

 

[Dgallo]

Got an email from Farmhouse about a new hop. Anyone use it yet?

 

[JohnConnor]

First IPA of the year. Pretty young yet as it's only 4 days off dry hop and going on 3 weeks from brew day. Very happy with it so far.

92% 2-row
7% flaked oats
1% Simpson's DRC (I wanted caraaroma but LHBS was out)

Simcoe, amarillo, centennial, warrior in the kettle
Simcoe, amarillo, centennial, columbus in the dry hop.
LA3

It's like drinking a citrus fruit cup. Nose is all citrus. Taste follows with some herbaceous notes with it being green. I'm getting a hint of sweet fruit, maybe tootie fruity gum? Can't pinpoint it but whatever it is, it's nice.

FYI, simcoe is from YCH's most recent crop. Probably the best simcoe I've ever had.

 

[stickyfinger]

That’s what I want to test. Do I even notice the effect of the hop stand procedure given equal dry hopping. you are more confident than i am that it would be noticed.

Maybe I should start with a small reduction in dryhop in the hopstand beer though bc i dont want to have to do the full spectrum of testing.

Do you have a hunch as to the tipping point when the tipping point is between zero dry hops and equal dry hops?

You’d have to keep the same amount of hops is both recipes though. If you just dry hopped one with 5 oz and then the other beer gets the same amount of dryhop but also gets hops in whirlpool, it won’t give you valid results because the whirlpool + dryhoped will have more hops and more flavor

 

[Dgallo]

That’s what I want to test. Do I even notice the effect of the hop stand procedure given equal dry hopping. you are more confident than i am that it would be noticed.

Maybe I should start with a small reduction in dryhop in the hopstand beer though bc i dont want to have to do the full spectrum of testing.

Do you have a hunch as to the tipping point when the tipping point is between zero dry hops and equal dry hops?

What I’m more so getting at is that if a beer has say 5 oz of dryhops and 5 oz of whirlpool but the other beer only has the same amount of dryhop-5oz then that beer is at a deficit of 5 oz of hops and will definitely have less aroma and flavor due to the less hops.

Your experiment would be more valid if the beers had the same amount of hops, say 10 oz.

They both get the same buttering charge

Beer 1 get 5 oz whirlpool and 5 oz dryhop

Beer 2 gets 10 oz dryhop.

That way both beer have the same oz/gallon in the total beer and you’ll be able to better determine what effect the whirlpool addition had in comparison to the dryhop

 

[Clyde McCoy]

What I’m more so getting at is that if a beer has say 5 oz of dryhops and 5 oz of whirlpool but the other beer only has the same amount of dryhop-5oz then that beer is at a deficit of 5 oz of hops and will definitely have less aroma and flavor due to the less hops.

Your experiment would be more valid if the beers had the same amount of hops, say 10 oz.

They both get the same buttering charge

Beer 1 get 5 oz whirlpool and 5 oz dryhop

Beer 2 gets 10 oz dryhop.

That way both beer have the same oz/gallon in the total beer and you’ll be able to better determine what effect the whirlpool addition had in comparison to the dryhop

Your example would be good for answering the following question: "I have 10 oz hops, what's the best way to use them?"

If you're testing whirlpool vs. dry hop additions, then I would do this:

Beer 1: 5 oz whirlpool, 0 oz dryhop
Beer 2: 0 oz whirlpool, 5 oz dryhop

In your example, two things have changed: (1) Beer 2 doesn't get any whirlpool hops, and (2) Beer 2 gets twice the amount of dry hops. You won't be able to distinguish the effect of one from the other.

 

[Dgallo]

Your example would be good for answering the following question: "I have 10 oz hops, what's the best way to use them?"

If you're testing whirlpool vs. dry hop additions, then I would do this:

Beer 1: 5 oz whirlpool, 0 oz dryhop
Beer 2: 0 oz whirlpool, 5 oz dryhop

In your example, two things have changed: (1) Beer 2 doesn't get any whirlpool hops, and (2) Beer 2 gets twice the amount of dry hops. You won't be able to distinguish the effect of one from the other.

Thats not the case at all, nor is it related to what he was asking originally. Please go back to what he stated originally and then please go back to my post from yesterday regarding the exact experiment you just suggested.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Please go back to what he stated originally and then please go back to my post from yesterday regarding the experiment you just suggested.

You added 10 oz of Citra/Mosaic whirlpool hops to a 5-gal batch?!

 

[Dgallo]

You added 10 oz of Citra/Mosaic whirlpool hops to a 5-gal batch?!

5 oz citra 5 oz mosia plus 0.5oz 60 min bittering of warrior. 1 beer got all whirlpool one beer got all dryhop to compare whirlpool vs. dryhop

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Janish had a blog post long time ago about doing an all dry hop beer, and he said it tasted terrible. I'm all about confirming things independently though and not just relying on anecdotal evidence so do it and let us know. Then we can rely on your anecdotal evidence.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

My first double NEIPA. day 12 post kegging and its shaped up real well. Didn't have enough 2 row so went with ~66% golden promise, 21% flaked oats, 10% white wheat, and 3% honey malt. Hence the "too much orange" color for me. In the wrong light it almost looks oxidized but it isn't at all. @MrPowers I think you suggested that Idaho 7, Simcoe, Amarillo would make an amazing combo in a different thread so thats what I went with for this one with Columbus for bittering. Flavor profile is great: pungent resin and a little dank with orange. Aroma more overripe orange than anything. Really like this but I think I underestimated the total dry hop addition for the ABV which came out to 8%. So while flavor is great and unique, the aroma is there but a little light as it doesn't punch you in the face. Still learning anyhow and pleased at how this came out with my first Double NEIPA. Really no alcohol bite at all.

 

[stickyfinger]

Yeah, I get it. What I'm saying is that at this point I am seriously questioning whether I will be able to tell a difference b/w a beer with 5 oz whirlpool and 5 oz dry hops vs one with 5 oz dry hops only. That's how cynical I am about whirlpool hops at this point, probably undeserved I suppose. I also was really interested that the dude from Trillium said in that BYO article someone shared with us several posts ago that they have basically cut any hot side hops down to 5 or 10% of the hop bill and all of the rest in dry hop. I have been leaning that way in my thinking recently I guess...

So, I could do as you gave in the example and split the whirlpool beer 1:1 hopstand:dry hop. That might actually be the best way since that is basically my method for probably 8/10 of my last IPAs except that my most very recent batches had closer to 0.5-0.6 oz/gal hopstand and 1.5oz/gal dry hop and two of them are definitely absolutely top notch to me and i think the larger dry hop amount is superior to the 1:1 hopstand:dryhop schedule.

I know that I don't want to do a pure hopstand vs pure dryhop test. that's been done by others and you can tell a difference for sure and in my opinion the dry hop beer would be preferable. FWIW, I've done 100% dry hop beers and I actually thought they were really good but I have never done the same recipe as a side by side in real time and I haven't done a 100% dry hop only beer for over a year.

I think I'll try a 13.5G batch (1.5G waste), shoot for 40ish calculated IBUs, drain off 6G with no hopstand and then add in 1oz/gal hopstand hops for the remaining wort and drain that off after a 30 minute stand. Then, I'll dry hop the first half with 2 oz/gal and the hopstand half with 1 oz/gal as you suggested. I was thinking of using my usual NEIPA recipe and using a single hop, probably Citra since it is a great hop that I love and not that pricey and easily available now.

Thanks for the input!

What I’m more so getting at is that if a beer has say 5 oz of dryhops and 5 oz of whirlpool but the other beer only has the same amount of dryhop-5oz then that beer is at a deficit of 5 oz of hops and will definitely have less aroma and flavor due to the less hops.

Your experiment would be more valid if the beers had the same amount of hops, say 10 oz.

They both get the same buttering charge

Beer 1 get 5 oz whirlpool and 5 oz dryhop

Beer 2 gets 10 oz dryhop.

That way both beer have the same oz/gallon in the total beer and you’ll be able to better determine what effect the whirlpool addition had in comparison to the dryhop

 

[stickyfinger]

maybe he just f'd up the recipe! ha ha. seriously, i've done 100% dry hop beers and I thought they were really good. it's been over a year though.

Janish had a blog post long time ago about doing an all dry hop beer, and he said it tasted terrible. I'm all about confirming things independently though and not just relying on anecdotal evidence so do it and let us know. Then we can rely on your anecdotal evidence.

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah, I get it. What I'm saying is that at this point I am seriously questioning whether I will be able to tell a difference b/w a beer with 5 oz whirlpool and 5 oz dry hops vs one with 5 oz dry hops only. That's how cynical I am about whirlpool hops at this point, probably undeserved I suppose. I also was really interested that the dude from Trillium said in that BYO article someone shared with us several posts ago that they have basically cut any hot side hops down to 5 or 10% of the hop bill and all of the rest in dry hop. I have been leaning that way in my thinking recently I guess...

So, I could do as you gave in the example and split the whirlpool beer 1:1 hopstand:dry hop. That might actually be the best way since that is basically my method for probably 8/10 of my last IPAs except that my most very recent batches had closer to 0.5-0.6 oz/gal hopstand and 1.5oz/gal dry hop and two of them are definitely absolutely top notch to me and i think the larger dry hop amount is superior to the 1:1 hopstand:dryhop schedule.

I know that I don't want to do a pure hopstand vs pure dryhop test. that's been done by others and you can tell a difference for sure and in my opinion the dry hop beer would be preferable. FWIW, I've done 100% dry hop beers and I actually thought they were really good but I have never done the same recipe as a side by side in real time and I haven't done a 100% dry hop only beer for over a year.

I think I'll try a 13.5G batch (1.5G waste), shoot for 40ish calculated IBUs, drain off 6G with no hopstand and then add in 1oz/gal hopstand hops for the remaining wort and drain that off after a 30 minute stand. Then, I'll dry hop the first half with 2 oz/gal and the hopstand half with 1 oz/gal as you suggested. I was thinking of using my usual NEIPA recipe and using a single hop, probably Citra since it is a great hop that I love and not that pricey and easily available now.

Thanks for the input!

Now I got you, you just want to know for sure. Go for it and report back.

 

[secretlevel]

My first double NEIPA. day 12 post kegging and its shaped up real well. Didn't have enough 2 row so went with ~66% golden promise, 21% flaked oats, 10% white wheat, and 3% honey malt. Hence the "too much orange" color for me. In the wrong light it almost looks oxidized but it isn't at all. @MrPowers I think you suggested that Idaho 7, Simcoe, Amarillo would make an amazing combo in a different thread so thats what I went with for this one with Columbus for bittering. Flavor profile is great: pungent resin and a little dank with orange. Aroma more overripe orange than anything. Really like this but I think I underestimated the total dry hop addition for the ABV which came out to 8%. So while flavor is great and unique, the aroma is there but a little light as it doesn't punch you in the face. Still learning anyhow and pleased at how this came out with my first Double NEIPA. Really no alcohol bite at all.

That sounds terrific! Flavors and aroma are still developing it sounds like, but I did I7, Citra and Mosaic 2:1:1 that was both dank and juicy. Citra and probably Mosaic served as lifter hops there.

A local brewery makes a double NEIPA with Amarillo, Strata and Galaxy that is both juicy and really dank. I love the balance there.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

That sounds terrific! Flavors and aroma are still developing it sounds like, but I did I7, Citra and Mosaic 2:1:1 that was both dank and juicy. Citra and probably Mosaic served as lifter hops there.

A local brewery makes a double NEIPA with Amarillo, Strata and Galaxy that is both juicy and really dank. I love the balance there.

Wonder what the ratios were with two super potent and high oil content hops with strata and galaxy so that the Amarillo didn’t get overshadowed. Seems like it could be great if the right ratio balance is struck

 

[lowtones84]

First IPA of the year. Pretty young yet as it's only 4 days off dry hop and going on 3 weeks from brew day. Very happy with it so far.

92% 2-row
7% flaked oats
1% Simpson's DRC (I wanted caraaroma but LHBS was out)

Simcoe, amarillo, centennial, warrior in the kettle
Simcoe, amarillo, centennial, columbus in the dry hop.
LA3

It's like drinking a citrus fruit cup. Nose is all citrus. Taste follows with some herbaceous notes with it being green. I'm getting a hint of sweet fruit, maybe tootie fruity gum? Can't pinpoint it but whatever it is, it's nice.

FYI, simcoe is from YCH's most recent crop. Probably the best simcoe I've ever had.

View attachment 680283

I love that hop combo. Don't see a lot of some of those these days. Ahhh I remember when Amarillo was all the rage and hard to come by. Still an excellent hop. As is Centennial. And Columbus...and Simcoe when it's good.

 

[aaronm13]

I've been adding a few oz at 10 minutes for the last few months now and it really has taken my beers to the next level. Even the guys in my club have said the same about them. I'm dry hopping my All Together clone at the moment which had no boil additions so will be interesting to compare when I keg on Sunday or Monday.

 

[beervoid]

I've been adding a few oz at 10 minutes for the last few months now and it really has taken my beers to the next level. Even the guys in my club have said the same about them. I'm dry hopping my All Together clone at the moment which had no boil additions so will be interesting to compare when I keg on Sunday or Monday.

Are you not getting too much bitterness this way? How big of a beer?

 

[aaronm13]

Are you not getting too much bitterness this way? How big of a beer?

No, to me it's perfect. I usually shoot for 8% and Beersmith says my IBU's are around the 40 mark. I really don't think you get a lot of bitterness from a 5 minute addition.

 

[beervoid]

No, to me it's perfect. I usually shoot for 8% and Beersmith says my IBU's are around the 40 mark. I really don't think you get a lot of bitterness from a 5 minute addition.

I think it was 80% of isomerization happens in the first 10mins according to research. So you are adding at 5min and count another 5min due to cooling time and count it as 10min in BS?
2.5oz on 5gal?

 

[aaronm13]

I think it was 80% of isomerization happens in the first 10mins according to research. So you are adding at 5min and count another 5min due to cooling time and count it as 10min in BS?
2.5oz on 5gal?

I add the hops with 5 minutes remaining in the boil and they stay here for the duration of the whirlpool too which is usually 30 minutes at 170F.

I don't trust the Beersmith ibu calculations as if you add at 0 minutes it give 0 ibus which just isn't right

 

[secretlevel]

Are you not getting too much bitterness this way? How big of a beer?

Something interesting I found about bitterness when trying to make traditional IPA's is that for me it's really depended on the water profile and possibly the dry hop. I always try to go for 60-80 IBU's in those beers from the boil, then whirlpool and dry hop. As long as my CaCl has been 100-150, there is almost no bitterness.

It's honestly a little frustrating since I want these beers to be bitter, but I feel like as long as CaCl is greater than or matches the Sulfate levels, the perceived bitterness is just too smooth. Has anyone else had a similar experience?

Latest WCIPA: 78 IBU's, Cl 95, SO4 221, pH 5.38. OG: 1.061, FG: 1.008. I really tried to dry this beer out and make it bitter but it's really not... I feel like the 7oz Simcoe Dry hop could have (bio?)transformed the alpha acids and humulone to add more flavor than bitterness.

 

[aaronm13]

My last profile had chloride at 226ppm and sulfates at 86ppm and it definitely backs up your theory as there was just a perfectly smooth level of bitterness. Soft crashing before dery hopping has hugely helped on smoothness too as hop burn can be perceived as bitterness too.