New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[SRJHops]

Good to know! Thanks! Didn't mean to interrupt the good posts in this thread with my garbage, just trying to figure out what hops will work best together.

Haven't used hop hash, but I'd for sure avoid hash and cryo in the dry hop, based on my (recent) experience.

I can't add too much regarding your recipe, since it's not a NEIPA and pretty far removed from what I think about these days. If you are going for tropical, I personally don't like Centennial for that. Your Mosaic and El Dorado should do the trick, though. I think all beers need some Citra, so I have to recommend that. Those other hops you have, other than Cascade, are all winners for the NEIPA style. Be careful with the amount of Galaxy, though, especially in the dry hop -- that's a powerful hop that can overwhelm a beer. But it's awesome for sure, you betcha! (A little Minnesotan thrown in for good measure.)

Best wishes for a great brew day and awesome beer!

Wait, you have 1,204 comments and 1,441 thumbs up and you are a novice?!

 

[couchsending]

I like the hop hash I’ve used. I’ve got some El Dorado, Comet, and Idaho 7 varietals. I would only use it in the WP below certain temps. I believe the alpha percentage is a bit of a guesstimate with that stuff. So say 175 or below.

 

[Shenanigans]

I'm planning on brewing a session/table/micro NEIPA.
Something along the lines of Whiplash micro IPA which is Vienna/Oat malt/Wheat malt and a dash of caramalt.
London III and Mosaic and Vic Secret.
It's only a 2.8% but tastes like a 5% beer.
Until now I have avoided the style because the water chemistry is so important for among other things the correct mouth feel.

Anyway I have bitten the bullet and did some reading and got Bruin' water and will aim for a NEIPA water profile i.e. Sulphate to Chloride ratio of 1:2 (75:150)
would that be a good profile for this or should I adjust it a bit to accountt for the low alc. beer?

Thanks

 

[Loud Brewing]

I'm also not a big fan of hop hash. I have used the el Dorado and chinook, but I prefer using pellets, even at the x2 dose.
I cant speak to the exact style your making, but I use a very simple water profile that works great for my neipas which was initially suggested by Janish on reddit;
R.O. water
.5g per gal gypsum
1.5g per gal cal chloride
A little Epsom and a little table salt

 

[SailorJerry]

Haven't used hop hash, but I'd for sure avoid hash and cryo in the dry hop, based on my (recent) experience.

I can't add too much regarding your recipe, since it's not a NEIPA and pretty far removed from what I think about these days. If you are going for tropical, I personally don't like Centennial for that. Your Mosaic and El Dorado should do the trick, though. I think all beers need some Citra, so I have to recommend that. Those other hops you have, other than Cascade, are all winners for the NEIPA style. Be careful with the amount of Galaxy, though, especially in the dry hop -- that's a powerful hop that can overwhelm a beer. But it's awesome for sure, you betcha! (A little Minnesotan thrown in for good measure.)

Best wishes for a great brew day and awesome beer!

Wait, you have 1,204 comments and 1,441 thumbs up and you are a novice?!

Novice compared to a lot on this thread! I just post in the trade threads and what are you drinking thread for the most part.
Just trying to have a light, balanced, fruity due to hops, pale ale. We brewed this once and it was great, but I don't remember the hops [emoji16]

 

[Andre3000]

Just curious as to why you would want to make a beer with virtually every citrus fruit flavor all mashed into one? Sounds like an unappealing mess.
Why not focus on one or two flavors that compliment one another?
I mean to each his own, and make what you want, but just because I like beef, pork, lamb, chicken, salmon and lobster doesn't mean I'm going to make a stew with all of them in it...

I'm curious to hear your explanation of how citrus fruit and citrus-forward hops do not go together. Fruit(s) + vanilla + lactose + hops = milkshake IPA. That's generally how you make them. Don't like the sounds of it? Don't brew it. Don't drink it. And for the record, it turned out amazingly well with the right amount of citrus and body coming through, taking on a bit of the color from the blood oranges. Cheers.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I'm curious to hear your explanation of how citrus fruit and citrus-forward hops do not go together. Fruit(s) + vanilla + lactose + hops = milkshake IPA. That's generally how you make them. Don't like the sounds of it? Don't brew it. Don't drink it. And for the record, it turned out amazingly well with the right amount of citrus and body coming through, taking on a bit of the color from the blood oranges. Cheers.View attachment 633784

Just saying that your goal of a grapefruit/blood orange/lemon/lime/ vanilla milkshake (all flavors you stated as a goal) sounds like “let’s throw every tasty individual flavor together in a mash-up beer and hope for the best” rather than a cohesive theme. Hence the steak/pork/chicken/lobster stew analogy.
But hey, if it floats your boat man, sail that sucker ‘til it sinks!

 

[stickyfinger]

Good to know! Thanks! Didn't mean to interrupt the good posts in this thread with my garbage, just trying to figure out what hops will work best together.

use the hop hash in the boil or whirlpool

 

[kevink]

Just saying that your goal of a grapefruit/blood orange/lemon/lime/ vanilla milkshake (all flavors you stated as a goal) sounds like “let’s throw every tasty individual flavor together in a mash-up beer and hope for the best” rather than a cohesive theme. Hence the steak/pork/chicken/lobster stew analogy.
But hey, if it floats your boat man, sail that sucker ‘til it sinks!

I don't see the problem as long as it works. Many of the milkshakes from Tired Hands have multiple adjuncts and are almost always delicious. Just a small sample of some they have brewed:

cacao, sweet-tart cherry, ground pistachio, vanilla
pineapple, passionfruit, vanilla
guava, coconut, vanilla
Tangerine, cacao, hazelnut, vanilla
apple cider donuts, brown sugar, cinnamon, vanilla
peach, tamarind, vanilla

They all have vanilla, lactose, and Citra and Mosaic in common. So many of them sound weird, but if you know what you're doing, the ingredients work and they can be delicious.

 

[leesmith]

I don't see the problem as long as it works. Many of the milkshakes from Tired Hands have multiple adjuncts and are almost always delicious. Just a small sample of some they have brewed:

cacao, sweet-tart cherry, ground pistachio, vanilla
pineapple, passionfruit, vanilla
guava, coconut, vanilla
Tangerine, cacao, hazelnut, vanilla
apple cider donuts, brown sugar, cinnamon, vanilla
peach, tamarind, vanilla

They all have vanilla, lactose, and Citra and Mosaic in common. So many of them sound weird, but if you know what you're doing, the ingredients work and they can be delicious.

I’ve got no problem with the Milkshake style except I’d like to see this thread concentrate on the “regular” NEIPA’s that it was based on.

 

[kevink]

I’ve got no problem with the Milkshake style except I’d like to see this thread concentrate on the “regular” IPA’s and DIPA’s that it was based on.

The thread is about NEIPAs, not regular IPAs and DIPAs. Milkshakes are a variation of the NEIPA. I'm not saying that we should or should not discuss anything, just pointing that out so nobody gets confused. I wouldn't worry about it, though. I don't think enough people are brewing milkshakes to have them steal the focus of the thread.

 

[Dgallo]

The thread is about NEIPAs, not regular IPAs and DIPAs. Milkshakes are a variation of the NEIPA. I'm not saying that we should or should not discuss anything, just pointing that out so nobody gets confused. I wouldn't worry about it, though. I don't think enough people are brewing milkshakes to have them steal the focus of the thread.

You’re literally brewing a NEIPA using up until 10-15% lactose, vanilla, and possibly fruit. I say it can be discussed, however I would say the main focus be about pairing the hops or grainbill

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Well my last two batches turned out interesting. I was using conan yeast(A04) on generation 3 and after only a week in the kegs carbing the beers are not very hazy at all and have dropped mostly clear. It's not a bad beer but the flavor is more muted, definitely not hitting that NEIPA big hop flavor saturation. I'm not even sure anyone would consider it a NEIPA if I served it to them. I didn't experience this in any previous iterations with this yeast. I'm still tweaking my grain bill but it was similar to previous versions that were much hazier and more flavorful. They all used a mix of 2 row/golden promise with about 10-15% malted wheat. I did throw some carapils into these last 2 to see what would happen but I can't imagine that changed haze so dramatically. Water profile and processes basically the same.

The one big difference in these latest batches to previous ones though, when I cleared the gen2 batches from the fermenter I dumped these current batches straight in. In other words, I overpitched like a MFer. I have read it suggested to underpitch conan for esters even by Kimmich himself but I didn't think overpitching could affect haze so much. I can only guess all the yeast floccing might've pulled down a ton of proteins with it? Maybe this is common knowledge to most people but I think I learned something to take forward.

 

[leesmith]

The thread is about NEIPAs, not regular IPAs and DIPAs. Milkshakes are a variation of the NEIPA. I'm not saying that we should or should not discuss anything, just pointing that out so nobody gets confused. I wouldn't worry about it, though. I don't think enough people are brewing milkshakes to have them steal the focus of the thread.

By “Regular” I meant NEIPA.

I’d hate a new brewer to think lactose is normal in NEIPA when they don’t even know what the combination of Mosaic and Malted Oats tastes like on its own.

 

[couchsending]

Well my last two batches turned out interesting. I was using conan yeast(A04) on generation 3 and after only a week in the kegs carbing the beers are not very hazy at all and have dropped mostly clear. It's not a bad beer but the flavor is more muted, definitely not hitting that NEIPA big hop flavor saturation. I'm not even sure anyone would consider it a NEIPA if I served it to them. I didn't experience this in any previous iterations with this yeast. I'm still tweaking my grain bill but it was similar to previous versions that were much hazier and more flavorful. They all used a mix of 2 row/golden promise with about 10-15% malted wheat. I did throw some carapils into these last 2 to see what would happen but I can't imagine that changed haze so dramatically. Water profile and processes basically the same.

The one big difference in these latest batches to previous ones though, when I cleared the gen2 batches from the fermenter I dumped these current batches straight in. In other words, I overpitched like a MFer. I have read it suggested to underpitch conan for esters even by Kimmich himself but I didn't think overpitching could affect haze so much. I can only guess all the yeast floccing might've pulled down a ton of proteins with it? Maybe this is common knowledge to most people but I think I learned something to take forward.

For most hoppy beers pitching the bare minimum amount of yeast is advisable. You don’t want fermentation issues but the less yeast in the beer the better. Kimmich says this as does Jeff Erway from La Cumbre and Julian Shrago from Beachwood. Both very skilled brewers that make great hop forward beers.

Jeff Erway pitches Cal Ale at .4m/ml/*plato I believe.

Of course you need to make sure the yeast is at optimum viability and health and you’re providing plenty of o2 and nutrients. Unless you have a microscope and a DO meter it’s probably not advisable.

 

[stickyfinger]

I've been drinking by soft-crash dry-hopped IPAs for a few weeks now, and I have to say that they are awesome. For anyone wanting to try something new or if you are having trouble with hop flavor or haze, try a soft crash if you can keep air out. I dropped to 60F after 10 days in primary (could do it sooner if you want I'm sure) and then put in 1-1.5 oz/gal of dry hops after a few days of dropping the yeast. The beers are really awesome. I don't think I'm going to be doing any hopping during primary any more.

 

[Dgallo]

By “Regular” I meant NEIPA.

I’d hate a new brewer think lactose is normal in NEIPA when they don’t even know what the combination of Mosaic and Malted Oats tastes like on its own.

Totally agree but have you seen some of the recent beer to hit beverage center, a lot of it is coming in using lactose. Idk why brewers are doing it. Must be to get more people into their beers. Caving to peer pressure.

 

[kevink]

For most hoppy beers pitching the bare minimum amount of yeast is advisable.

So how much are you talking? The amount the typical pitching rate calculator comes up with or less? I have been using Mr. Malty, but all this talk about under pitching makes me wonder if pitching less would be benificial for this style.

 

[kevink]

Totally agree but have you seen some of the recent beer to hit beverage center, a lot of it is coming in using lactose. Idk why brewers are doing it. Must be to get more people into their beers. Caving to peer pressure.

Yeah, it's "cool" to use lactose. Just like how everyone is brewing milkshakes now. All of the non-Tired Hands milkshakes I have had were either gross or just not milkshakes. I bet most of the breweries doing milkshakes have never had one from Tired Hands or Omnipollo. It's all marketing and riding on the coattails of the brewers who pioneered the style or were very early adopters of the specific twist.

 

[SRJHops]

Well my last two batches turned out interesting. I was using conan yeast(A04) on generation 3 and after only a week in the kegs carbing the beers are not very hazy at all and have dropped mostly clear. It's not a bad beer but the flavor is more muted, definitely not hitting that NEIPA big hop flavor saturation. I'm not even sure anyone would consider it a NEIPA if I served it to them. I didn't experience this in any previous iterations with this yeast. I'm still tweaking my grain bill but it was similar to previous versions that were much hazier and more flavorful. They all used a mix of 2 row/golden promise with about 10-15% malted wheat. I did throw some carapils into these last 2 to see what would happen but I can't imagine that changed haze so dramatically. Water profile and processes basically the same.

The one big difference in these latest batches to previous ones though, when I cleared the gen2 batches from the fermenter I dumped these current batches straight in. In other words, I overpitched like a MFer. I have read it suggested to underpitch conan for esters even by Kimmich himself but I didn't think overpitching could affect haze so much. I can only guess all the yeast floccing might've pulled down a ton of proteins with it? Maybe this is common knowledge to most people but I think I learned something to take forward.

Thanks for sharing this. I think it would be interesting for folks to try to help with the diagnosis. Here are my thoughts, FWIW:

I personally overpitch by a lot, but my beers stay hazy and never drop clear (before I drink them). I can't argue against underpitching, but I'm not sure overpitching was the problem?

Doesn't look like you used flaked (which Janish says can drop phenols/oils out of suspension), so that shouldn't be the issue. I will sing the praises of malted oats, though -- they seem to help with permanent suspension of polyphenols/flavor.

I see a lot of folks saying they don't do the biotransformation addition during active fermentation, but I think the research from Janish and others is pretty clear that it contributes to the haze/suspension and creates the citrus (citronellol) flavor (if you use Citra at least).

My final thought is about cold crashing. It seems to me that a soft crash to 60 is a good call, so not everything drops out. I do see a lot of folks crashing colder, but it seems to defeat the purpose of the dry hop a bit, IMO.

Also, are folks cold crashing again after the final addition a few days before bottling/kegging? I am not, because I use just an ounce at that point and bag it, so I just don't think it's necessary to soft crash again...

 

[isomerization]

Thanks for sharing this. I think it would be interesting for folks to try to help with the diagnosis. Here are my thoughts, FWIW:

I personally overpitch by a lot, but my beers stay hazy and never drop clear (before I drink them). I can't argue against underpitching, but I'm not sure overpitching was the problem?

Doesn't look like you used flaked (which Janish says can drop phenols/oils out of suspension), so that shouldn't be the issue. I will sing the praises of malted oats, though -- they seem to help with permanent suspension of polyphenols/flavor.

I see a lot of folks saying they don't do the biotransformation addition during active fermentation, but I think the research from Janish and others is pretty clear that it contributes to the haze/suspension and creates the citrus (citronellol) flavor (if you use Citra at least).

My final thought is about cold crashing. It seems to me that a soft crash to 60 is a good call, so not everything drops out. I do see a lot of folks crashing colder, but it seems to defeat the purpose of the dry hop a bit, IMO.

Also, are folks cold crashing again after the final addition a few days before bottling/kegging? I am not, because I use just an ounce at that point and bag it, so I just don't think it's necessary to soft crash again...

What is your criteria for overpitching and how are you quantifying this?

 

[SRJHops]

What is your criteria for overpitching and how are you quantifying this?

Well, I just toss in 2 packs of A24 Dry Hop. That must be overpitching, I would think, but happy to be corrected. 5 gals. OG target is 1.067.

 

[couchsending]

So how much are you talking? The amount the typical pitching rate calculator comes up with or less? I have been using Mr. Malty, but all this talk about under pitching makes me wonder if pitching less would be benificial for this style.

It’s beneficial for hoppy beer regardless of the “style”. Firm but rounder bitterness, better hop flavor, more aroma, etc. The more yeast in the beer the more hop oils are likely to stick to said yeast and get pulled out when the yeast floccs.

I quoted what La Cumbre does for pitch rate. I’ve seen Kimmich say something similar in regards to his yeast.

Again I’d think you’d need a microscope if you want to really start messing with that variable. Those yeast pitching calculators make quite a few assumptions.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Well, I just toss in 2 packs of A24 Dry Hop. That must be overpitching, I would think, but happy to be corrected. 5 gals. OG target is 1.067.

So you don't do a starter, and just use 2 packs of yeast? I'm not sure if that's a big overpitch on a 1.067 beer, especially if the packs aren't super fresh. I think what I did was a huge overpitch(transferring directly onto a full cake).

 

[SanPancho]

I don't see the problem as long as it works. Many of the milkshakes from Tired Hands have multiple adjuncts and are almost always delicious. Just a small sample of some they have brewed:

cacao, sweet-tart cherry, ground pistachio, vanilla
pineapple, passionfruit, vanilla
guava, coconut, vanilla
Tangerine, cacao, hazelnut, vanilla
apple cider donuts, brown sugar, cinnamon, vanilla
peach, tamarind, vanilla

They all have vanilla, lactose, and Citra and Mosaic in common. So many of them sound weird, but if you know what you're doing, the ingredients work and they can be delicious.

I don't wanna keep this milkshake thing going, but I feel like his original point was that you're going overboard with the citrus. too many varieties. if you look at your examples above, there are a lot of contrasting/complimentary flavors there. too many citrus ends up tasting like sunny D a lot of the time. hard to pick out the individual juices. nothing wrong with citrus in milkshake, just you may wanna knock off one or two to highlight them. unless your goal is a generic citrus, in which case that's probably the end result. just a thought.

 

[SRJHops]

So you don't do a starter, and just use 2 packs of yeast? I'm not sure if that's a big overpitch on a 1.067 beer, especially if the packs aren't super fresh. I think what I did was a huge overpitch(transferring directly onto a full cake).

Fair enough... In that case, it seems the overpitch could be the leading candidate for the drop-clear. Though earlier in the thread others were saying their NEIPA's were dropping clear, so something else could be going on too. I've had commercial ones on tap that drop, notably Foggy Geezer.

As for starters, I currently believe they are too much time and effort. But I say "currently" because I know that I am always learning and looking for ways to improve my beer. I could one day soon come to the conclusion that a lower/proper pitch rate might be what I need to take my beer to the next level. For now, I have other fish to fry -- or perhaps I should say other hops to try!

 

[Dgallo]

So you don't do a starter, and just use 2 packs of yeast? I'm not sure if that's a big overpitch on a 1.067 beer, especially if the packs aren't super fresh. I think what I did was a huge overpitch(transferring directly onto a full cake).

It would be like 150 billion cells

 

[SRJHops]

It would be like 150 billion cells

So is that under or over pitching? I can't quite figure out the Yeast Pitch calculator. Which pitch rate am I supposed to use? And is A24 a slurry? https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

Maybe today IS the day I figure out how much yeast I should be pitching!

 

[Dgallo]

So is that under or over pitching? I can't quite figure out the Yeast Pitch calculator. Which pitch rate am I supposed to use? And is A24 a slurry? https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

Maybe today IS the day I figure out how much yeast I should be pitching!

He said a 1.067 was his OG and at .5 pitch rate he would need 170 billion cells. So to be at .4 he would need 150 billion cells

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I don't wanna keep this milkshake thing going, but I feel like his original point was that you're going overboard with the citrus. too many varieties. if you look at your examples above, there are a lot of contrasting/complimentary flavors there. too many citrus ends up tasting like sunny D a lot of the time. hard to pick out the individual juices. nothing wrong with citrus in milkshake, just you may wanna knock off one or two to highlight them. unless your goal is a generic citrus, in which case that's probably the end result. just a thought.

That's exactly what I was getting at. Take away the vanilla and lactose - those are common to all milkshakes, and look at what you have left.
- pineapple, passionfruit - complimentary - makes sense
- guava, coconut- complimentary - makes sense
- apple cider donuts, brown sugar, cinnamon, TOTALLY makes sense
- peach, tamarind - makes sense

Combining every citrus flavor you can think of, even if they aren't complimentary like grapefruit and lime? - doesn't make sense TO ME. But to each his own.

I also happen to think double mocha chocolate cherry hazelnut bourbon anchovy vegemite latte stouts are dumb too, but what do I know?

FWIW, I have made a mango vanilla milkshake IPA, and it was delicious, but it had focus.

But that's enough for that discussion - the dead horse is well and truly beaten. Like I said, make what you like - I was just pointing out that it sounded a little schizophrenic to me.