New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[beervoid]

I think you misunderstood, what does this have to do with dry hop extraction?

Larger surface area contact to volume ratio of the dry hops with beer.

Its stated under is layering the key in this article.
https://byo.com/article/advanced-dry-hopping-techniques/

 

[isomerization]

Larger surface area contact to volume ratio of the dry hops with beer.

Its stated under is layering the key in this article.
https://byo.com/article/advanced-dry-hopping-techniques/

Interesting, in my experiences the hops don’t sink within the first 2-3 days and then I cold crash. Hop oil extraction is complete by then, so I don’t really see how hop sludge at the bottom plays into this?

I wonder if commercial scale sees a different experience?

 

[leesmith]

I think you misunderstood, what does this have to do with dry hop extraction?

If the hops settle into the cone of the conical before they have given up all their flavor then there is less contact area for extraction because the hops are bunched up in the cone.

That’s why some breweries bubble co2 through them in order to rouse them.

Just my guess.

 

[beervoid]

I think you misunderstood, what does this have to do with dry hop extraction?

This is from the article quote from Jamil.

"The main reason is that we're dry hopping into cylindroconical fermenters. The bottom is a narrow cone, which means that when the hops drop to the bottom, it results in a smaller surface area." He said not to worry about layering in dry hops on a small scale. Peter Wolfe also weighed in on the topic saying especially if a homebrewer is using a flat bottomed fermenter, there is little reason to layer in your hops, the surface area to volume ratio is much greater on a homebrew scale.”

Interesting, in my experiences the hops don’t sink within the first 2-3 days and then I cold crash. Hop oil extraction is complete by then, so I don’t really see how hop sludge at the bottom plays into this?

I wonder if commercial scale sees a different experience?

Much more pressure in the big tanks so maybe?

 

[Dgallo]

Theoretically it makes sense but I don’t believe the hops sink fast enough for the impact to happen. Maybe when DH during fermentation but not afterwards. The newest extraction data to come out shows that 90 percent of all hop compounds are extracted in the first 24 without agitation. We’ve all dryhopped, have you ever seen your dryhops sink in less than a day? I can’t even tell you the last time they dropped out in less than 2 or 3 days

 

[leesmith]

Are you saying it’s not good?

Why did I think it was bad or not a good example?

It was one note:
Mouthfeel, flavor....

Such an odd thing some of these new IPAs. There are no dynamics to the flavors and the way they play out on the palate. The same flavor front to back, side to side with no bitterness is an odd experience.

Sloop has made some good beers.
And this was drinkable.
But if I owned a brewery and was know for hoppy beers...I’d tuck this recipe back into my notebook for the time being.


And to the conical...dry hop time...extraction conversation.

You have to remember Jamil is a little old school in his dry hopping technique. As he was becoming known and gaining praise...it was common to dry hop for a week or even more.

I’m not supporting or refuting any of Beervoids comments. Just explaining that’s where it’s coming from.

 

[beervoid]

Why did I think it was bad or not a good example?
You have to remember Jamil is a little old school in his dry hopping technique. As he was becoming known and gaining praise...it was common to dry hop for a week or even more.

I’m not supporting or refuting any of Beervoids comments. Just explaining that’s where it’s coming from.

In the article it's is not only Jamil stating this. Peter Wolfe is also backing it. And Wolfe is again quoted in Janish's book.

On page 115.
"The size of a dry hopping vessel might also play a role in the
extraction rates. For example, Peter Wolfe suggested in an
online Q&A session that as the tank size increases, dry hop
extraction efficiency decreases. Potentially, you would need
more hops when brewing on a larger scale to get the same
results as you would on the homebrew scale."

 

[isomerization]

In the article it's is not only Jamil stating this. Peter Wolfe is also backing it. And Wolfe is again quoted in Janish's book.

On page 115.
"The size of a dry hopping vessel might also play a role in the
extraction rates. For example, Peter Wolfe suggested in an
online Q&A session that as the tank size increases, dry hop
extraction efficiency decreases. Potentially, you would need
more hops when brewing on a larger scale to get the same
results as you would on the homebrew scale."

I’m not super familiar with commercial ferm tanks, but don’t larger ones just get taller? If so, the surface area where the hops float would stay roughly the same. Thus more hops needed for increased volumes. Just a theory, but I’m with @Dgallo on this one regarding Jamil’s comments.

 

[SanPancho]

it all depends on aspect ratio of vessel. Narrower means more hops are “floating” under the water line, making them more likely to sink. Wider means more on surface where they can hang out.

And a crazy thick krauzen seems to help keep them floating and not sinking too.

The other variable is trapping the sunken hops in trub and yeast, which doesn’t happen if you can do dumps. Then you just pop em up with co2.

 

[Dgallo]

Why did I think it was bad or not a good example?

It was one note:
Mouthfeel, flavor....

Such an odd thing some of these new IPAs. There are no dynamics to the flavors and the way they play out on the palate. The same flavor front to back, side to side with no bitterness is an odd experience.

Sloop has made some good beers.
And this was drinkable.
But if I owned a brewery and was know for hoppy beers...I’d tuck this recipe back into my notebook for the time being.

I get what your saying there. I’ve noticed that when beers only have the common fruit forward hops that it just becomes one dimensional. Idk if you’ve ever had Pile of Crowns by LIC But that was prob the best ipa I’ve ever had. The beer took you on a trip of dankness upfront to pineapple with a crisp just enough resin bitterness to finish

 

[kevink]

it all depends on aspect ratio of vessel.

I was just going to say this. I don't buy size being a factor, but configuration may. Even the quote above states that size "might" play a role. It's not very convincing.

 

[leesmith]

In the article it's is not only Jamil stating this. Peter Wolfe is also backing it. And Wolfe is again quoted in Janish's book.

On page 115.
"The size of a dry hopping vessel might also play a role in the
extraction rates. For example, Peter Wolfe suggested in an
online Q&A session that as the tank size increases, dry hop
extraction efficiency decreases. Potentially, you would need
more hops when brewing on a larger scale to get the same
results as you would on the homebrew scale."

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[leesmith]

I get what your saying there. I’ve noticed that when beers only have the commen fruit forward hops that it just becomes one dimensional. Idk if you’ve ever had Pile of Crowns by LIC But that was prob the best ipa I’ve ever had. The beer took you on a trip of dankness upfront to pineapple with a crisp just enough resin bitterness to finish

I also think brewers are trying soo hard to not produce a beer flavored IPA that they leave nothing that can be dynamic. Take away the bitterness...take away the malt....then well it’s just a Capri Sun with alcohol and bubbles in it.

I have not had Pile of Crowns.

But wish they would put the original version of Modern Aberration back out.

Emailed them once about that beer but never heard back. It was brewed with Brett...and just fantastic...

 

[SRJHops]

Theoretically it makes sense but I don’t believe the hops sink fast enough for the impact to happen. Maybe when DH during fermentation but not afterwards. The newest extraction data to come out shows that 90 percent of all hop compounds are extracted in the first 24 without agitation. We’ve all dryhopped, have you ever seen your dryhops sink in less than a day? I can’t even tell you the last time they dropped out in less than 2 or 3 days

Indeed. Seems to take a while for them to settle to the bottom. In fact, the darn cryo hops I used in the last batch are STILL floating at the top of some of my bottles after 6 weeks! Last time I ever use cryo in the dry hop!

 

[kevink]

I'm about to use Imperial A24 Dry Hop for the first time and I'm wondering how it compares to 1318 from an attenuation perspective. Is it more attenuative, less, or about the same? If it's different, by how much?

 

[stickyfinger]

Definitely more attenuative than 1318, especially since it can degrade starches to fermentable sugars on its own.

I'm about to use Imperial A24 Dry Hop for the first time and I'm wondering how it compares to 1318 from an attenuation perspective. Is it more attenuative, less, or about the same? If it's different, by how much?

 

[Dgallo]

I'm about to use Imperial A24 Dry Hop for the first time and I'm wondering how it compares to 1318 from an attenuation perspective. Is it more attenuative, less, or about the same? If it's different, by how much?

About the same 3% difference.. 156 mash getting a 1.064 og I’ll get 1.016. Same as I would with London III. A24 is a blend so you need to drive the temp to get all the esters 68-74/75 over the course of the first 4 days.

 

[isomerization]

I personally get about 5% more attenuation out of A24 than 1318 (under similar grist/mash conditions).

Do we know how active the STA1 gene is in the Sacc trois strain? @suregork have you tested that strain?

 

[kevink]

About the same 3% difference..

Thanks. 3% more out of A24?

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks. 3% more out of A24?

Yeah. I underpitch it. It looks like a few people get better attenuation than I do. Could be the drive I use and the underpitching as to why I don’t see as much as others

 

[BeerFst]

I personally get about 5% more attenuation out of A24 than 1318 (under similar grist/mash conditions).

Do we know how active the STA1 gene is in the Sacc trois strain? @suregork have you tested that strain?

I emailed Imperial about A24 a few months ago and they said that the addition of Conan would eliminate the "false terminal". I dont really understand how it can prevent the A20 side from slowly breaking things down, but maybe the conan being there just consumes the available sugar faster than the A20 would? Anyway their whole response is below. I had also asked a question about over building starters, also covered below.

For the most part, A04 Barbarian is adding to the overall ester profile of A24 - lots of stone fruit esters, peaches and nectarines and such. The FG is going to be fairly similar for both the A04 and A20, however, with the addition of the A04 in the blend, fermentations are a bit faster. A20 likes to hit a false terminal and then slowly finish out fermentations, with the blend this does not happen. The A04 is slightly more flocculent, so the straight A20 will be hazier than A04 and the A24 will be right in between in terms of haze- make sense?

Propagating blends can be a little tricky, especially when you are working with sacch and brett blends. When working with just sacch blends, it's far easier to get close to the original ratios. I see no issues with making a large starter with a single pouch of A24 and reserving some for future brews. However, if you are harvesting and re-pitching the A24, you'll absolutely run into some alteration of the original 50/50 blend. Considering that the A04 is more flocculent, over time, especially between gen one and gen two, you will see A04 Barbarian become the more dominate strain.

Personally, I really like the A24. I think it provides some nice esters that are really hard to get when just using the single strain of A04 or A20. And, because you are not packaging this beer for market, slight differences batch to batch is not a terrible thing.

 

[isomerization]

I emailed Imperial about A24 a few months ago and they said that the addition of Conan would eliminate the "false terminal". I dont really understand how it can prevent the A20 side from slowly breaking things down, but maybe the conan being there just consumes the available sugar faster than the A20 would? Anyway their whole response is below. I had also asked a question about over building starters, also covered below.

For the most part, A04 Barbarian is adding to the overall ester profile of A24 - lots of stone fruit esters, peaches and nectarines and such. The FG is going to be fairly similar for both the A04 and A20, however, with the addition of the A04 in the blend, fermentations are a bit faster. A20 likes to hit a false terminal and then slowly finish out fermentations, with the blend this does not happen. The A04 is slightly more flocculent, so the straight A20 will be hazier than A04 and the A24 will be right in between in terms of haze- make sense?

Propagating blends can be a little tricky, especially when you are working with sacch and brett blends. When working with just sacch blends, it's far easier to get close to the original ratios. I see no issues with making a large starter with a single pouch of A24 and reserving some for future brews. However, if you are harvesting and re-pitching the A24, you'll absolutely run into some alteration of the original 50/50 blend. Considering that the A04 is more flocculent, over time, especially between gen one and gen two, you will see A04 Barbarian become the more dominate strain.

Personally, I really like the A24. I think it provides some nice esters that are really hard to get when just using the single strain of A04 or A20. And, because you are not packaging this beer for market, slight differences batch to batch is not a terrible thing.

My intepretarion of that information is that A20 likely does NOT have an active STA1 gene. The wording suggests that A04 can consume the same sugars as A20, and does so without a minor stall phase. The attenuation for A20 is listed as below 80% as well, and if it were STA1 active then I’d expect that to be 5-10% higher.

Why did they reference Brett blend? The ratio shift and flocc comments make sense. Harvest yeast from your starter to save rather than during or after primary.

 

[SailorJerry]

Alright, I've followed this thread for a few hundred pages now, and contributed very little, as I'm very much a novice compared to most, but I do have a question and I am hoping you NEIPA and Hop Heads can steer me in the right direction.

I'm looking at making Braufessor's pale ale recipe that he has posted here, or at least basing it off of his (I've ran out of 2-row, so we're gonna rock it with Golden Promise). Here is what i'm looking at doing, and I'm wanting to know if the hops will work well together or not.

OG: 1.046
FG: 1.011
ABV: 4.64%
IBU: 38.1
Color: 3.4 SRM

3# Golden Promise
4# White Wheat
1.5# Flaked Oats
1oz Centennial at 30 min
1.5oz Mosaic whirlpool
1oz El Dorado Hophash whirlpool
1oz Mosaic dryhop

And then, do I go 1 oz El Dorado Hophash, 1oz Citra, or something else as my last dryhop addition?

We've got galaxy, simcoe, mosaic, citra, amarillo, and cascade laying around.

 

[tld6008]

Alright, I've followed this thread for a few hundred pages now, and contributed very little, as I'm very much a novice compared to most, but I do have a question and I am hoping you NEIPA and Hop Heads can steer me in the right direction.

I'm looking at making Braufessor's pale ale recipe that he has posted here, or at least basing it off of his (I've ran out of 2-row, so we're gonna rock it with Golden Promise). Here is what i'm looking at doing, and I'm wanting to know if the hops will work well together or not.

OG: 1.046
FG: 1.011
ABV: 4.64%
IBU: 38.1
Color: 3.4 SRM

3# Golden Promise
4# White Wheat
1.5# Flaked Oats
1oz Centennial at 30 min
1.5oz Mosaic whirlpool
1oz El Dorado Hophash whirlpool
1oz Mosaic dryhop

And then, do I go 1 oz El Dorado Hophash, 1oz Citra, or something else as my last dryhop addition?

We've got galaxy, simcoe, mosaic, citra, amarillo, and cascade laying around.

No offense, but that doesn't look anything like Braufessors recipe

 

[BeerFst]

Why did they reference Brett blend? The ratio shift and flocc comments make sense. Harvest yeast from your starter to save rather than during or after primary.

You know I dont think i ever noticed they said Brett, I didn't mention anything Brett related in the original question, see below. Maybe because the other blends Imperial sells have Brett in them?


"What does the Conan (barbarian) bring to the party in A24 as compared to just using A20 on its own? Is it just the added peach esters from Conan or are there other benefits? Higher FG since the percentage of sacc trois is lower? Slower/Faster Fermentation? Different Haze retention or other performance?

Also White Labs suggests that propagating a yeast blend shouldn't be a problem for at least 5 generations. In your experience is this true? I overbuild my starters, and typically hold onto a yeast for a handful of generations before buying new again, I would plan to do the same with A24.

I am trying to decide if i should just use A20 on its own, or try out the A24. I would likely use it in mostly IPAs but might use a generation for a kettle sour as well."

 

[SailorJerry]

No offense, but that doesn't look anything like Braufessors recipe

Not the one in this thread, his other one found here...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/hoppy-session-wheat-beer.644047/

Was more wondering about the hop combination anyways, but I should have included that link in my first post, sorry!

 

[Dgallo]

Not the one in this thread, his other one found here...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/hoppy-session-wheat-beer.644047/

Was more wondering about the hop combination anyways, but I should have included that link in my first post, sorry!

Id avoid hop hash personally, buys that’s just me

 

[SailorJerry]

Id avoid hop hash personally, buys that’s just me

I've never used it before, which is why I was curious.

 

[Dgallo]

I've never used it before, which is why I was curious.

It doesn’t extract as well in a dryhop and kinda sticks together. It’s much better on the hot side but at that point I’d rather use cryo

 

[SailorJerry]

It doesn’t extract as well in a dryhop and kinda sticks together. It’s much better on the hot side but at that point I’d rather use cryo

Good to know! Thanks! Didn't mean to interrupt the good posts in this thread with my garbage, just trying to figure out what hops will work best together.