New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[kevink]

Dry hop only. That is not 12.6 gallons of finished beer. That is 12.6 gallons in the fermenter at dry hop time. It would be a little less than 15 ounces per 5 gallons because you would need more wort to get 5 gallons of finished beer due to the loss. Anyway, I don't think all hops provide the same level of astringency. At least in my experience they don't.

 

[TBryerton]

I don’t generally go above 2oz/gallon dry hop... you just need to know how to alter your process to accommodate for the higher dry hopping loads.

TreeHouse talks about this quite a bit. I would love to get your take on how to alter your process for higher rates. I’ve never gone that high - frightens me a little

 

[Loud Brewing]

I have also been experimenting with total hop loads and wp/dh ratios at home. I have several friends who own and operate professional breweries in SoCal (wicks, route 30, euryale) and I have been given the same answer in regards to their hop quantities in neipa offerings. They all claim to use 4-5 lbs total per barrel and always slightly higher dosing ratio in the dh.

So I attempted to follow these guidelines with my recent 10 gal batch and felt that the final product was slightly muted on both flavor and aroma. I am only assuming, but I think this might be the result of their better quality contract hops, and/or the ability of these breweries to force more out of the hops using different methods in the fermenter similar to what is outlined in the janish book.

My next batch will be back up to my previous 6lbs total per barrel, 60/40 dh to wp ratio and see if I can get that loud hop flavor and aroma back again.

 

[SRJHops]

Dry hop only. That is not 12.6 gallons of finished beer. That is 12.6 gallons in the fermenter at dry hop time. It would be a little less than 15 ounces per 5 gallons because you would need more wort to get 5 gallons of finished beer due to the loss. Anyway, I don't think all hops provide the same level of astringency. At least in my experience they don't.

That is most certainly true, but my assumption on this forum is that we are talking NEIPA hops, like Citra, Mosaic, Idaho 7, Galaxy...

 

[leesmith]

Is that an IPA?

 

[Dgallo]

View attachment 633608

Is that an IPA?

Are you saying it’s not good?

 

[leesmith]

Yes

 

[Dgallo]

Yes

I didn’t have that one but I’m a huge fan of sloop. I do however think they’re trying to do to much with their new brewing capacity by putting out a brand new ipa beer every week.

Is that the only sloop beer you’ve had?

 

[leesmith]

I’ve had maybe between 20-30 examples over the last few years.

 

[TBryerton]

I’ve had maybe between 20-30 examples over the last few years.

A few of their beers have been really good. Most of their beers are decent but I usually find them a little basic. A couple have been awful. Green Islands was the worst.

 

[Dgallo]

Green Islands was the worst.

I guess everyone has their own tastes for NEIPAS because I 1000% disagree. Green island, Nelson Bomb, and Down under Bomb are in my opinion the best. Did miss the last canning of green island but I can’t inagine it was that bad. But hey, I also can’t stand treehouses’s green.. it was malty and the hops didn’t pop at all on their 6/4 canning run of it
@marchuk96

 

[Loud Brewing]

I think that a lot of these breweries are always tweaking their hop dosages to create better margins. It's also the fact that it's an agricultural product with tons of variables in ingridients

 

[TBryerton]

I guess everyone has their own tastes for NEIPAS because I 1000% disagree. Green island, Nelson Bomb, and Down under Bomb are in my opinion the best. Did miss the last canning of green island but I can’t inagine it was that bad. But hey, I also can’t stand treehouses’s green.. it was malty and the hops didn’t pop at all on their 6/4 canning run of it
@marchuk96

I haven’t had the other two you mentioned. The Green Island I had was awhile back. It tasted like it was dry hopped about an hour ago. But like I said, they’ve had a few good beers. I like the No Pumpkin and there was a mosaic / galaxy beer (and maybe Citra?) I had last year that was great. Can’t recall the name.

 

[Dgallo]

I haven’t had the other two you mentioned. The Green Island I had was awhile back. It tasted like it was dry hopped about an hour ago. But like I said, they’ve had a few good beers. I like the No Pumpkin and there was a mosaic / galaxy beer (and maybe Citra?) I had last year that was great. Can’t recall the name.

That sounds like something they would do in their double plus good series

 

[beervoid]

I have also been experimenting with total hop loads and wp/dh ratios at home. I have several friends who own and operate professional breweries in SoCal (wicks, route 30, euryale) and I have been given the same answer in regards to their hop quantities in neipa offerings. They all claim to use 4-5 lbs total per barrel and always slightly higher dosing ratio in the dh.

So I attempted to follow these guidelines with my recent 10 gal batch and felt that the final product was slightly muted on both flavor and aroma. I am only assuming, but I think this might be the result of their better quality contract hops, and/or the ability of these breweries to force more out of the hops using different methods in the fermenter similar to what is outlined in the janish book.

My next batch will be back up to my previous 6lbs total per barrel, 60/40 dh to wp ratio and see if I can get that loud hop flavor and aroma back again.

My 2cts. There is definately such thing as overhopping.
Commercial brewers have less dry hop extraction efficiency due to the conical shape of their fermenters and higher volume's. One can't translate 6lbs per barrel (16oz per 5 gallons) straight to homebrew quantities. I don't know how much % difference there is but im guessing about 20% based on my experience with brewing small vs big.
I would love to see some science on this.

Also they can layer their hop additions, so they can dry hop and dump, repeat and extract in a few hours with hopguns. So use high loads with little contact time. If you throw in alot of hops at homebrew level you extract too much polyphenols.

Perhaps if you go above 12 to 16oz per 5 gallons with several dry hop charges with less then a few hours contact you would be able to emulate the big brewery process.
I can only see this done by people having the ability to dump the dry hops and yeast.
Has ayone with a conical fermenter tried this out?

 

[couchsending]

Thanks. For process, at higher loads, I could dial down amounts as I get closer to kegging/bottling and also cold crash. What else could I do? Love to have more dry hops, but don't want the astringency...

Cold crash and condition cold for an extended period of time or use a certain percentage of fining agents. Most Galaxy forward beers for example I’ll lager for a week or so in the low 30s before transferring to another keg to carbonate. If you’re adept at keeping O2 pickup to a minimum you won’t get any degradation in aroma or flavor but you do get a much smoother beer.

 

[couchsending]

TreeHouse talks about this quite a bit. I would love to get your take on how to alter your process for higher rates. I’ve never gone that high - frightens me a little

Tree House talks about altering the base beer to accommodate for both higher kettle and dry hop additions when it comes to the higher hopped versions of say Julius, Alter, Green, etc. I’ve actually wondered what exactly Nate is referring to when he says that.

 

[beervoid]

Tree House talks about altering the base beer to accommodate for both higher kettle and dry hop additions when it comes to the higher hopped versions of say Julius, Alter, Green, etc. I’ve actually wondered what exactly Nate is referring to when he says that.

Higher gravity beers can carry higher hopping loads. Are the hoppier versions of julius etc not higher abv as well?

Edit.
Just checked jjjuliusss its also 6.8%
Perhaps just higher og and fg.

 

[Dgallo]

My 2cts. There is definately such thing as overhopping.
Commercial brewers have less dry hop extraction efficiency due to the conical shape of their fermenters and higher volume's.

Where are you getting this info? It’s been proven that extraction has a direct correlation with suffice area, aka total liquid volume the hops are in contact with. That would mean the larger brewing volumes of a commercial brewery would provide them with increase extraction potential compared to homebrewers. So we would have to hop at higher rates to achieve the same extraction

 

[Loud Brewing]

My 2cts. There is definately such thing as overhopping.
Commercial brewers have less dry hop extraction efficiency due to the conical shape of their fermenters and higher volume's. One can't translate 6lbs per barrel (16oz per 5 gallons) straight to homebrew quantities. I don't know how much % difference there is but im guessing about 20% based on my experience with brewing small vs big.
I would love to see some science on this.

Also they can layer their hop additions, so they can dry hop and dump, repeat and extract in a few hours with hopguns. So use high loads with little contact time. If you throw in alot of hops at homebrew level you extract too much polyphenols.

Perhaps if you go above 12 to 16oz per 5 gallons with several dry hop charges with less then a few hours contact you would be able to emulate the big brewery process.
I can only see this done by people having the ability to dump the dry hops and yeast.
Has ayone with a conical fermenter tried this out?

I asked this exact question to professionals in regards to scaling total hop loads from 1bbl to 10gal and was told that I would most likely have to increase my total hop load a bit because of their ability to AlHop and or other techniques like pulsing c02 from the bottom of the conical (and their hops are just better than typical homebrew hops)

Effiency is crucial to them and I understand all of that on a commercial level, but with my first hand experience and my taste preferences, .5lbs total hops per 5gal batch is not nearly enough on the homebrew side of neipas.

 

[beervoid]

Where are you getting this info? It’s been proven that extraction has a direct correlation with suffice area, aka total liquid volume the hops are in contact with. That would mean the larger brewing volumes of a commercial brewery would provide them with increase extraction potential compared to homebrewers. So we would have to hop at higher rates to achieve the same extraction

I think it was Jamil who stated that because homebrew fermentation vessels have flat bottoms you have more surface area.
Also it's mentioned in Scott Janish's new book.

 

[beervoid]

I asked this exact question to professionals in regards to scaling total hop loads from 1bbl to 10gal and was told that I would most likely have to increase my total hop load a bit because of their ability to AlHop and or other techniques like pulsing c02 from the bottom of the conical (and their hops are just better than typical homebrew hops)

Effiency is crucial to them and I understand all of that on a commercial level, but with my first hand experience and my taste preferences, .5lbs total hops per 5gal batch is not nearly enough on the homebrew side of neipas.

I've had awsome results with as low as 6oz. Whenever I go above 10oz (which is on par with the 4lbs/bbl limit established by science) it doesn't really makes a difference.. higher then that and it becomes muddled hopburn mess.
If you are not getting the punch out of 8oz (0.5lbs) either your process or hop choice needs to be revisited.

 

[Dgallo]

I think it was Jamil who stated that because homebrew fermentation vessels have flat bottoms you have more surface area.
Also it's mentioned in Scott Janish's new book.

What page in the book, I don’t recall seeing that.

Homebrew or commercial FV can be conical or flat bottomed

 

[isomerization]

I think it was Jamil who stated that because homebrew fermentation vessels have flat bottoms you have more surface area.
Also it's mentioned in Scott Janish's new book.

Why would the bottom of the fermenter matter more than the top? Aren’t most hops hanging out in the surface of the liquid during the majority of dry hopping?

 

[isomerization]

I've had awsome results with as low as 6oz. Whenever I go above 10oz (which is on par with the 4lbs/bbl limit established by science) it doesn't really makes a difference.. higher then that and it becomes muddled hopburn mess.
If you are not getting the punch out of 8oz (0.5lbs) either your process or hop choice needs to be revisited.

Dry hop amount or total hop bill?

 

[Dgallo]

I've had awsome results with as low as 6oz. Whenever I go above 10oz (which is on par with the 4lbs/bbl limit established by science) it doesn't really makes a difference.. higher then that and it becomes muddled hopburn mess.
If you are not getting the punch out of 8oz (0.5lbs) either your process or hop choice needs to be revisited.

Could we also use the argument for you that if you’re getting a hoppy muddled mess of flavored over 8oz either your process or hop choice needs to be revised? Sorry don’t mean to pick at you. I’m sure the beer taste fine at 8oz. I just did a galaxy pale ale with 8 oz total and its great, but not in a the same league of aroma or flavor as my NEIPA where I’m aroun 12-14 oz

 

[beervoid]

Why would the bottom of the fermenter matter more than the top? Aren’t most hops hanging out in the surface of the liquid during the majority of dry hopping?

Im guessing the bottom flat surface area of a typical homebrew fv is larger then the conical big volume.

 

[beervoid]

Dry hop amount or total hop bill?

Thats with in 3 to 6oz in whirlpool and 6oz in dry hop. I use mostly citra and mosaic as a base to build on and the remaining 20% are different hop varieties. Usually a little cryo in there as well.

 

[beervoid]

Could we also use the argument for you that if you’re getting a hoppy muddled mess of flavored over 8oz either your process or hop choice needs to be revised? Sorry don’t mean to pick at you. I’m sure the beer taste fine at 8oz. I just did a galaxy pale ale with 8 oz total and its great, but not in a the same league of aroma or flavor as my NEIPA where I’m aroun 12-14 oz

Possible yes. Honestly I've only went that high 3 times and all 3 times I wasnt happy with the result.

The hops come out much brighter imho in lower amounts. It might also be a matter of taste. I'm not so keen on the green hopburn raw hop flavor.
Also my neipas are drinkable in just a few days post kegging.

My process has definately improved with time as well and im slowly ramping up dry hops amounts again with the new process. Currently got 8oz +1oz cryo carbonating.

When you go that high what does your dry hop schedule look like?
How much oats? And how long conditioning to make it drinkable?

 

[isomerization]

Im guessing the bottom flat surface area of a typical homebrew fv is larger then the conical big volume.

I think you misunderstood, what does this have to do with dry hop extraction?