New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[ttuato]

Quotes are from the article, not me. He believes the active yeast plays a significant role in enhancing the flavor, in addition to scrubbing O2.

At the very least, if a homebrewer takes the other steps (like bottling from primary), it suggests that kegging does not have an advantage over bottling. It is just a choice.

It seems to me like the author is trying ti validate their choice to bottle vs admitting that kegging has lowest risk of oxygen ingress.

Think about it logically. Purge the keg of o2 with fermentation gas, purge the transfer line and trash first fill so that “virgin” beer in it then fill keg. After that only risk of oxygen exposure for the entire 5gal batch is from >0.002% O2 in beverage gas.

Whereas with Bottling - every single 12oz bottle has to deal with boyles law of mixing gases when getting purged, plus the

Some have reported grassy flavors when having hops in the beer for extended periods. I personally believe it depends on the hop variety and the amount of hops used as I have not experienced it with a 2 ounce keg hop.

Michael may be a well rounded and experienced brewer that has sours down. And Scott can clearly brew too and really dig into some numbers like nobody's business to document and analyze his findings, but I wouldn't go so far as to call them, "NEIPA gurus". No shade, they both seem very bright and passionate when it comes to brewing. But they're doing the same poopy we are! They try a little this, they try a little that, taste, tweak, repeat. And I am super grateful for them to share their learnings and experiences. A perfect example is their video of the NEIPA that turned out a pretty dark color with very little hop aroma, but it's great. They take you through their process, their surprises and are honest about everything. It's great they share and give back their learnings to the brewing community. I recommend you check them out. I found the yeast discussion particularly interesting. And for that, I tip my hat. But until they have a beer up on the board with the likes of Treehouse, Hillfarmstead, Trillium, etc, I just wouldn't go that far. I think they're learning and experimenting just like the rest of us, and I'm grateful to learn alongside them.

You misunderstood the word use.
Guru = influential teacher. Your entire post supports my comment.

Until Shaun Hill, JC Terrault, Nate Lanier literally writes a book to TEACH others about NEIPAs they will be continue to be just Artisans. Furthermore I would bet anyone those those three will have Janish upcoming NEIPA book on their library shelf within a month of publication.

 

[Dgallo]

It seems to me like the author is trying ti validate their choice to bottle vs admitting that kegging has lowest risk of oxygen ingress.

Think about it logically. Purge the keg of o2 with fermentation gas, purge the transfer line and trash first fill so that “virgin” beer in it then fill keg. After that only risk of oxygen exposure for the entire 5gal batch is from >0.002% O2 in beverage gas.

Whereas with Bottling - every single 12oz bottle has to deal with boyles law of mixing gases when getting purged, plus the



You misunderstood the word use.
Guru = influential teacher. Your entire post supports my comment.

Until Shaun Hill, JC Terrault, Nate Lanier literally writes a book to TEACH others about NEIPAs they will be continue to be just Artisans. Furthermore I would bet anyone those those three will have Janish upcoming NEIPA book on their library shelf within a month of publication.

Janish for President!

 

[WBCo]

I've done both and don't really notice much (if any) difference/gain to keg hopping. And my kegs never last more than a week, so not worried about any off flavors from the hops.

I was referring to your previous post though about dry hopping after dropping the yeast. Seems like that's pretty similar to just keg hopping, but saving some time and possibly O2 exposure. Unless I'm missing something to your process. So was curious to get a better understanding to how you're suggesting to DH after dropping out.

I know this wasn't necessarily directed at me, but since I use the same method I'll deposit my $0.02.

I do not keg hop for a couple reasons. 1) I use active fermentation to purge my kegs. I do not open the kegs until they have kicked and are ready to be cleaned. 2) I can't remember where I heard or read it, but there is some correlation to temperature and the flavors derived from the dryhop. The lower the temps, the grassier the flavor, the higher the temp the more fruity flavors you get. Plus as someone else mentioned, dryhopping at higher temps allows for faster extraction.

I cool to 55/60, wait 24 hours, pull yeast, add dry hops with a funnel through the 1.5” TC port on the top of my conical. Purge headspace. Wait 4 days, cool as low as possible while still maintaining head pressure, wait 48 hours and dump yeast/hops a few times over those 48 hours. Transfer to a keg and carbonate either by krausening or force carb.

Which conical do you have? I have a Spike CF10 and hook up CO2 to the gas manifold at about 5 psi and let that run continuously while I dump the hops in through the 4" port on the lid.

 

[MaCheFai]

It seems to me like the author is trying ti validate their choice to bottle vs admitting that kegging has lowest risk of oxygen ingress.

Think about it logically. Purge the keg of o2 with fermentation gas, purge the transfer line and trash first fill so that “virgin” beer in it then fill keg. After that only risk of oxygen exposure for the entire 5gal batch is from >0.002% O2 in beverage gas.

Whereas with Bottling - every single 12oz bottle has to deal with boyles law of mixing gases when getting purged, plus the


You misunderstood the word use.
Guru = influential teacher. Your entire post supports my comment.

Until Shaun Hill, JC Terrault, Nate Lanier literally writes a book to TEACH others about NEIPAs they will be continue to be just Artisans. Furthermore I would bet anyone those those three will have Janish upcoming NEIPA book on their library shelf within a month of publication.

Ah okay! I see why there was confusion then. I interpret a guru as someone who's mastered something prior to being able to teach it. And I see those other breweries as having mastered the style, just not interested in publishing how. It's too bad they don't care to teach like Scott and Michael graciously do! haha

Either way, I appreciate every bit of effort they give back to the community. It really says a lot about who they are as people. I know it takes a ton of time and effort and I've learned a lot from their trials. Likewise, I've had their beers and will continue to support them as they continue to grow here in the DMV.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Regarding "mastering" the style: Honestly, I think a lot of the hyped beers popularity is a psychological thing. You open some beers and your brain automatically 'knows' it's going to be an amazing beer. Taste is our weakest sense. It's why so many people think they know their stuff and fail miserably at blind taste tests. There's no doubt Treehouse, Trillium, MBC, HF, etc are putting out really good stuff but these days countless breweries are(Sapwood included). There's a bunch in Virginia killing the NEIPA style as well as Sapwood up the road in MD.

I'm a craft beer nut so my wife gets me some beers for Christmas, MBC Lunch being one. Really good beer, but I drank a very un-hyped local beer that same day and was surprised how similar they tasted. I don't think it's a knock on MBC as much as it shows how many really good breweries are out there these days, who have pretty much 'mastered' beermaking as well but just don't get any hype

 

[WBCo]

Regarding "mastering" the style: Honestly, I think a lot of the hyped beers popularity is a psychological thing. You open some beers and your brain automatically 'knows' it's going to be an amazing beer. Taste is our weakest sense. It's why so many people think they know their stuff and fail miserably at blind taste tests. There's no doubt Treehouse, Trillium, MBC, HF, etc are putting out really good stuff but these days countless breweries are(Sapwood included). There's a bunch in Virginia killing the NEIPA style these days as well as Sapwood up the road in MD.

I'm a craft beer nut so my wife gets me some beers for Christmas, MBC Lunch being one. Really good beer, but I drank a very un-hyped local beer that same day and was surprised how similar they tasted. I don't think it's a knock on MBC as much as it shows how many really good breweries are out there these days, who have pretty much 'mastered' beermaking as well but just don't get any hype

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. I was actually extremely underwhelmed with most of what I had when my wife and I visited Treehouse. Of course this was at their new brewery and everyone has heard how beers coming out of their Monson brewery were better. I actually really liked most of what I tried at Trillium, though. I know they are a hype brewery but the few things I've had from The Veil were awesome. I wish they were closer and I could try more. I haven't had a chance to try much else from VA, unfortunately.

I enjoy what comes out of my kegerator more than most of the easily accessible beers in the bottle shops by me. I'm sure most of that has to do with the freshness factor and some of my "house flavor" that I've grown accustomed to, but I find myself going out of my way for commercial NEIPA's less and less.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. I was actually extremely underwhelmed with most of what I had when my wife and I visited Treehouse. Of course this was at their new brewery and everyone has heard how beers coming out of their Monson brewery were better. I actually really liked most of what I tried at Trillium, though. I know they are a hype brewery but the few things I've had from The Veil were awesome. I wish they were closer and I could try more. I haven't had a chance to try much else from VA, unfortunately.

I enjoy what comes out of my kegerator more than most of the easily accessible beers in the bottle shops by me. I'm sure most of that has to do with the freshness factor and some of my "house flavor" that I've grown accustomed to, but I find myself going out of my way for commercial NEIPA's less and less.

The Richmond,VA beer scene is out of control. I live right outside DC so a lot of the Richmond stuff doesn't make it up here but I've had a couple Veil beers on tap and they were stellar. I'm actually going down there for a weekend soon to hit as many as I can. I don't know where in MD you live and if you're close to DC at all but if you're ever on the VA side there's some great stuff here too like Ocelot, Solace, and Aslin.

 

[couchsending]

I haven’t been blown away by any of the more recent Treehouse beers in terms of aroma but there’s no one other than HF that does mouthfeel and overall drinking enjoyment better. In my opinion their beers are still light on the pallette, not sweet, never acidic. They disappear mid sip and beg you to drink another. Everyone drinks with their nose first and when the aroma is off the charts people will instantly think wow this beer is amazing. More aroma = more hops. Unfortunately once you go over a certain dosage rate of hops it can really negatively affect the mouthfeel, taste, texture, and overall drinking enjoyment of the beer unless you treat it a certain way. Sure it’s more impactful and in your face but so often it comes at a cost.

There’s nothing I hate more than drinking a milky beer that reaks of rotting fruit, sweet and thick, and is incredibly acidic on the way down. Unfortunately that’s so many of this style of beer.

For me Treehouse and Hill Farmstead are still top of the pile. They might not be as aromatic as some as I don’t think either brewery uses the insane dry hopping load that others do. However they still seem to be the best executed in terms of pure technical brewing and execution.

Both breweries went through some tough times when they switched to their new brew houses. Shaun Hill will tell you it was some of the worst beer he’s ever made. Treehouse product definitely suffered there for a while but seems to be back on point now.

 

[Dgallo]

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. I was actually extremely underwhelmed with most of what I had when my wife and I visited Treehouse. Of course this was at their new brewery and everyone has heard how beers coming out of their Monson brewery were better. I actually really liked most of what I tried at Trillium, though. I know they are a hype brewery but the few things I've had from The Veil were awesome. I wish they were closer and I could try more. I haven't had a chance to try much else from VA, unfortunately.

I enjoy what comes out of my kegerator more than most of the easily accessible beers in the bottle shops by me. I'm sure most of that has to do with the freshness factor and some of my "house flavor" that I've grown accustomed to, but I find myself going out of my way for commercial NEIPA's less and less.

I’m with you, I will never drive out to tree house to wait in line for their beer again. Don’t get me wrong it’s good and I’d drink it if someone got me one and be happy with it but they have genuine competition from sloop and equilibrium that are readily available and distributed at beverage centers around me.

 

[WBCo]

The Richmond,VA beer scene is out of control. I live right outside DC so a lot of the Richmond stuff doesn't make it up here but I've had a couple Veil beers on tap and they were stellar. I'm actually going down there for a weekend soon to hit as many as I can. I don't know where in MD you live and if you're close to DC at all but if you're ever on the VA side there's some great stuff here too like Ocelot, Solace, and Aslin.

I live about 60 miles north of DC, right off of 95, so it's not terribly far, I just don't get down that way very often. The wife and I have been talking about making a weekend trip down to VA so we can check out some of the breweries like Ocelot and Aslin, but also get to Veil without having to worry about making that drive home.

I’m with you, I will never drive out to tree house to wait in line for their beer again. Don’t get me wrong it’s good and I’d drink it if someone got me one and be happy with it but they have genuine competition from sloop and equilibrium that are readily available and distributed at beverage centers around me.

My wife and I were up in the Catskills in January doing some snowboarding and brewery touring. We went to Catskill Brewery, Fox N Hare, Sloop, Equilibrium (literally 3 days before they opened their new space), Hudson Valley Brewing, and a few other super small breweries that I can't even remember their name. I enjoyed almost everything but Hudson Valley Brewing was AMAZING. Really wish I could get their stuff regularly.

 

[Dgallo]

Hudson Valley Brewing was AMAZING. Really wish I could get their stuff regularly.

Their sours are definitely the best

 

[MaCheFai]

I haven’t been blown away by any of the more recent Treehouse beers in terms of aroma but there’s no one other than HF that does mouthfeel and overall drinking enjoyment better. In my opinion their beers are still light on the pallet, not sweet, never acidic. They disappear mid pallet and beg you to drink another. Everyone drinks with their nose first and when the aroma is off the charts people will instantly think wow this beer is amazing. More aroma = more hops. Unfortunately once you go over a certain dosage rate of hops it can really negatively affect the mouthfeel, taste, texture, and overall drinking enjoyment of the beer unless you treat it a certain way. Sure it’s more impactful and in your face but so often it comes at a cost.

There’s nothing I hate more than drinking a milky beer that reaks of rotting fruit, sweet and thick, and is incredibly acidic on the way down. Unfortunately that’s so many of this style of beer.

For me Treehouse and Hill Farmstead are still top of the pile. They might not be as aromatic as some as I don’t think either brewery uses the insane dry hopping load that others do. However they still seem to be the best executed in terms of pure technical brewing and execution.

Both breweries went through some tough times when they switched to their new brew houses. Shaun Hill will tell you it was some of the worst beer he’s ever made. Treehouse product definitely suffered there for a while but seems to be back on point now.

Totally agree. Years ago when they first opened, I used to be the biggest Aslin fanboy and would bike there on the weekends (when they actually had a bar). But once I had beers from TH, HF, Bissell, Trillium, Veil and Answer, I gained a new appreciation. The nose, mouthfeel and flavors all work so well together and are able to shine individually.

And I still love Aslin, in particular ones like Stellar Parallax, Laser Raptors, Double Orange Starfish, Small Town in Ontario to name a few, and can't wait for their new place to open up. I will always have a soft spot for them, Kai's a cool dude. But locally, I find myself enjoying more offerings from Commonwealth(killing it right now) and Ocelot too. Might just be due to accessibility, but I'm over having to wait in lines. That excitement is gone. I much prefer saddling up to the bar, or at the very least, grabbing a 4 pack at the local beer shop.

 

[tld6008]

Isn't there a moderator available to keep this thread on track?

 

[Dgallo]

Isn't there a moderator available to keep this thread on track?

..... can’t talk about commercial NEIPA in a NEIPA thread?

 

[aaron_m]

Anyone store one of their NEIPAs in a keg for a month or two before drinking it?

I was thinking about brewing a 10 gallon batch next time but wasn't sure how the flavor/aroma would hold up after sitting around for a month or two. My process has gotten much better and oxidation isn't much of an issue anymore and I have a cool dark room that never goes over 60 that I can store kegs. It would be nice to always have a backup keg on deck.

 

[Dgallo]

Anyone store one of their NEIPAs in a keg for a month or two before drinking it?

I was thinking about brewing a 10 gallon batch next time but wasn't sure how the flavor/aroma would hold up after sitting around for a month or two. My process has gotten much better and oxidation isn't much of an issue anymore and I have a cool dark room that never goes over 60 that I can store kegs. It would be nice to always have a backup keg on deck.

As long as youre good on minimize o2 it won’t degrade too badly. Flavor and aroma will drop some.

 

[MaCheFai]

Anyone store one of their NEIPAs in a keg for a month or two before drinking it?

I was thinking about brewing a 10 gallon batch next time but wasn't sure how the flavor/aroma would hold up after sitting around for a month or two. My process has gotten much better and oxidation isn't much of an issue anymore and I have a cool dark room that never goes over 60 that I can store kegs. It would be nice to always have a backup keg on deck.

Please report back and let us know! My 5 gals never last longer then 2 weeks. Curious to see how much(if any) the o2 in "Co2" plays a factor in discoloring and adding that overly sweet cidery taste. Might just want to give it a bit of a rocking back and forth prior to serving to mix any of the hop/yeast back into solution.

 

[mayito23]

Ah okay! I see why there was confusion then. I interpret a guru as someone who's mastered something prior to being able to teach it. And I see those other breweries as having mastered the style, just not interested in publishing how. It's too bad they don't care to teach like Scott and Michael graciously do! haha

Either way, I appreciate every bit of effort they give back to the community. It really says a lot about who they are as people. I know it takes a ton of time and effort and I've learned a lot from their trials. Likewise, I've had their beers and will continue to support them as they continue to grow here in the DMV.

I honestly feel like Scott and Michael are Neipa guru's. I see alot of information/broscience being pitch around that wouldn't be out there if it wasn't for these 2 guys trying to educate their fellow home-brewers. I've seen breweries such as Aslin, Bissell brothers, Trillium quote some of the information that has been published on Scott's website for instance. The fact that you know who they are validates the point I'm trying to make. Is not everyday that you find people like them that are willing to help out as opposed to feeling like they're the next big thing.

 

[beervoid]

I honestly feel like Scott and Michael are Neipa guru's. I see alot of information/broscience being pitch around that wouldn't be out there if it wasn't for these 2 guys trying to educate their fellow home-brewers. I've seen breweries such as Aslin, Bissell brothers, Trillium quote some of the information that has been published on Scott's website for instance. The fact that you know who they are validates the point I'm trying to make. Is not everyday that you find people like them that are willing to help out as opposed to feeling like they're the next big thing.

Agreed, really admire them being so open source about their process. It is really one of those things that can only be beneficial to humanity. Many great things are hidden away behind patents holding back our evolution.

 

[schematix]

Please report back and let us know! My 5 gals never last longer then 2 weeks. Curious to see how much(if any) the o2 in "Co2" plays a factor in discoloring and adding that overly sweet cidery taste. Might just want to give it a bit of a rocking back and forth prior to serving to mix any of the hop/yeast back into solution.

That’s oxidation. Look into spunding. It’s given me extremely shelf life on IPAs. 5-6 months no worries.

 

[Dgallo]

Agreed, really admire them being so open source about their process. It is really one of those things that can only be beneficial to humanity. Many great things are hidden away behind patents holding back our evolution.

I’m genuinely ok with head brewers holding back and not giving their entire processes out. You wouldnt ask a top chef their recipe if you ate at his/her restaurant, would you? And if you did they would tell you no. I feel it’s ok to be the best at something and there is nothing wrong with not sharing what got you to the top

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I’m genuinely ok with head brewers holding back and not giving their entire processes out. You wouldnt ask a top chef their recipe if you ate at his/her restaurant, would you? And if you did they would tell you no.

Alternatively, they wouldn't just give you the recipe, they'd go on TV and walk you through some of their most iconic dishes.

It's worth noting that Cloudwater used to be incredibly open about how they do things, but have got noticeably more reticent of late, as they felt there were a lot of people "taking" but not giving back so they felt they were doing R&D for the whole industry.

But hey, everybody's different, there's no compulsion to give away all your secrets but it's great for the rest of us to get some insight how the top players do things. These days it's hard to keep any *real* secrets, not even the recipe for Coke...

 

[jakturner]

I have some comet and equinox I need to use up, I also have Citra, mosaic, and Medusa to blend in as needed. I know equinox is good for whirlpool and DH, but what suggestions do you all have about using comet? Or any good combo of these.

 

[Dgallo]

I have some comet and equinox I need to use up, I also have Citra, mosaic, and Medusa to blend in as needed. I know equinox is good for whirlpool and DH, but what suggestions do you all have about using comet? Or any good combo of these.

Medusa will go amazing with both citra and Mosiac. I’d blend it and keep the Mosiac lower. Medusa has this beautiful tangerine/apricot note and would work 40/40 with the citra and have the mosaic come in the back end to round it out.
Haven’t used any comet lately but last time I used it it came off a danker grapefruit. Really nice in the whirlpool, dryhop it got lost.

Equinaut came through pretty tropical in a smash pale brother in law did last summer. So they def could be used together to build some great complexity.

 

[marchuk96]

I have some comet and equinox I need to use up, I also have Citra, mosaic, and Medusa to blend in as needed. I know equinox is good for whirlpool and DH, but what suggestions do you all have about using comet? Or any good combo of these.

I think the citra and mosaic are your "power hitters" of the group and you would need to keep that in mind when you combo them up with the other hops..its going to come down to what you want to stand out and what you want your flavors and aromas to be...to be safe you could always just go equal amounts all the way threw(meh)...or have citra and mosaic as your base flavor...maybe just those as boil hops and a smidge in whirlpool and then start to hit it hard with some of the others with big whirlpool and dry hop...the possibilities are endless...I don't think there is a wrong combo with what you have...they are all pretty great varieties and should really play well together with each other

 

[beervoid]

I’m genuinely ok with head brewers holding back and not giving their entire processes out. You wouldnt ask a top chef their recipe if you ate at his/her restaurant, would you? And if you did they would tell you no. I feel it’s ok to be the best at something and there is nothing wrong with not sharing what got you to the top

I think you'd be surprised how willing to share info most people in the lets call them artisanal arts are.
Don't want to get too philosophical but all the more respect for those who do. It's community vs individual.. Even if they give their process away there is no way anyone could do the same as them simply cause they are not them.

I would also argue that its the adventure of experimenting that makes brewing magic and fun. I wouldnt want everything handed to me on a single plate. Maybe some masters know this and want to encourage the newer generations to experiment

 

[beervoid]

Who needs them anyway as we got homebrewtalk

 

[kaz4121]

Here is the Ward Labs mineral analysis for Julius: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius/

I know it's not incredibly helpful, but I think the key takeaway from it is aim for 100 ppm calcium, 150 ppm sulfate, 150 ppm chloride starting water profile. Also, Julius finishes with a pH of 4.6.

 

[beervoid]

Here is the Ward Labs mineral analysis for Julius: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius/

I know it's not incredibly helpful, but I think the key takeaway from it is aim for 30 - 50 ppm calcium, 350 - 400 ppm sulfate, 300 - 400 ppm chloride starting water profile. Also, Julius finishes with a pH of 4.6.

Great work! Looking forward to more analysis. Been keeping track of this topic for a while now.

 

[tld6008]

kaz4121 said: ↑
Here is the Ward Labs mineral analysis for Julius: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius/

I know it's not incredibly helpful, but I think the key takeaway from it is aim for 30 - 50 ppm calcium, 350 - 400 ppm sulfate, 300 - 400 ppm chloride starting water profile. Also, Julius finishes with a pH of 4.6.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is quite a bit different than what you posted on the Treehouse Brewing Julius Clone forum
i.e.,
I know it's not incredibly helpful, but I think the key takeaway from it is aim for 100 ppm calcium, 150 ppm sulfate, 150 ppm chloride starting water profile. Also, Julius finishes with a pH of 4.6.