New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[ttuato]

This is off topic, but I must make a note. Maybe some have brought this up in the thread already, but even if so, I think it bears repeating lest you have a Sat night like me.

If you are going to be dry hopping with 8 oz of hops, don't be like me, put them in a bag or a stainless mesh tube. I oxygenated the crap out of 5 gallons over the course of 2.5 hours as I assembled and disassembled clogged poppits and QDs when transferring to the keg. I'm talking about 20+ times. I'm not ready to say the batch is ruined, but between me blowing out the tubing (with my mouth), the oxygenation, the quarts of beers and hops all over my basement floor, I don't see it being at peak for long.

Lets just say that was a Sat night I won't soon forget.

dissolve half a tab campden in some distilled water then put it back in the keg. Let it scavenge some of the oxygen for you.

 

[couchsending]

Cold crashing is an absolute must! I don’t think you need to go crazy cold, I’ve had great luck with 45 for a day or two.. I always throw hops in loose and have done as much as 12oz I think without clogs.. I definitely dump as much or it as possible before transferring though.

 

[SRJHops]

Cool! I just did it. I picked light and hoppy, though. What is the thinking for light and malty?

For my current grain bill, for light and hoppy, I would need to add 1.5 tsp gypsum, .5 tsp Epsom Salt, and .25 tsp Calcium Chloride to the brewing water.

What is HCO? The target is 0, and the actual is 62, but I don't see a way to lower it. Do I need to worry about it?

Oh, I get it now. The dropdown water profiles on that water calculator don't really have a NEIPA profile -- the closest might be light and malty.

The light and hoppy profile is probably best for a West Coast IPA, where gypsum/higher sulfate makes the hops "pop" more. My guess is there's already so much hops in a NEIPA that trying to add balance with more malty (sweeter) profile makes some sense?

Though personally, I like the idea of more hops flavor, even if it comes at the expense of some sweetness and/or softness. (I've always been much more interested in flavor than softness or cloudiness in my NEIPA's.)

Now that I better understand water, I am seeing that for NEIPA's, a lot of people are trying to increase the chloride to sulfate ratio. I am seeing things like 150 ppm Chloride to 75 ppm Sulfate for NEIPA'S.

I think I will give 150 Chloride to 100 sulfate a try... then maybe reverse that for the next time..

 

[tld6008]

Oh, I get it now. The dropdown water profiles on that water calculator don't really have a NEIPA profile -- the closest might be light and malty.

The light and hoppy profile is probably best for a West Coast IPA, where gypsum/higher sulfate makes the hops "pop" more. My guess is there's already so much hops in a NEIPA that trying to add balance with more malty (sweeter) profile makes some sense?

Though personally, I like the idea of more hops flavor, even if it comes at the expense of some sweetness and/or softness. (I've always been much more interested in flavor than softness or cloudiness in my NEIPA's.)

Now that I better understand water, I am seeing that for NEIPA's, a lot of people are trying to increase the chloride to sulfate ratio. I am seeing things like 150 ppm Chloride to 75 ppm Sulfate for NEIPA'S.

I think I will give 150 Chloride to 100 sulfate a try... then maybe reverse that for the next time..

Have you read the OPs thorough discussion on this style? If so you might want to review it again as it seems like your are looking for what he has already provided.
No offense intended.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost...postcount=1418
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/page-146#post-8203827

 

[troglodytes]

Rule #7: Cold Crash Before Transfer= No Hops in Suspension

Oh, I cold crashed. That didn't help.

 

[SRJHops]

Have you read the OPs thorough discussion on this style? If so you might want to review it again as it seems like your are looking for what he has already provided.
No offense intended.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost...postcount=1418
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/page-146#post-8203827

None taken. Yes, good stuff in the OP's post, which I did review. Don't want to beat a dead horse, but I'm curious what others think. The OP provided a bunch of different iterations, from high sulfate/low chloride, to the reverse, to balanced, etc.

There are also a lot of different ppm levels I've seen (such as 250 ppm Chloride), so it seems like an area where people might have some opinions to share, which is always interesting...

 

[anteater8]

I have recently learned you MUST cold crash these heavily dry hopped neipas especially if you want to do a closed transfer. After talking to a member here (thanks u/cooper) he recomended trying a c02 filled bag/balloon to avoid suck back. I used a vacum seal bag and it worked like a charm, minimal oxy exposure and complete hop fall during crash.
The beer pictured below has 10oz of hops in 5gal batch and was transfered from fermonster to keg using pressure through ball locks.

View attachment 613495 View attachment 613496

I think the balloon method of limiting oxygen suck back during cold crash makes a lot of sense. I actually just bought a 25 pack of mylar balloons on Amazon for $10 and will using one when I cold crash my next IPA. Even with an auto-siphon filter, and letting the carboy settle on my counter for a few days, I was getting a decent amount of hop and yeast matter in my keg.

 

[RTHP99]

Cold Brew NEIPA. 3lbs each Golden Light/Wheat dme. 1oz Citra/Ekuanot cryo each. 1oz regular Simcoe. Chemicals. Omega DIPA/Connan and 05 added. All added cold, 65F. Brewed in a bucket and xfered to keg while purging day 6. No dry hops. Drink fast before anything changes.View attachment 613026

Sounds interesting and looks good. What is “chemicals”? Any water treatment? How does the beer taste?

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Sounds interesting and looks good. What is “chemicals”? Any water treatment? How does the beer taste?

About 1/4tsp Gypsum. 1/2tsp Calcium Chroide. 1ml Lactic Acid.

Ok...but as most of my NEIPAs...think diacetyl is coming around. Grains for a WCIPA.

 

[tld6008]

I think the balloon method of limiting oxygen suck back during cold crash makes a lot of sense. I actually just bought a 25 pack of mylar balloons on Amazon for $10 and will using one when I cold crash my next IPA. Even with an auto-siphon filter, and letting the carboy settle on my counter for a few days, I was getting a decent amount of hop and yeast matter in my keg.

I use a plastic bag that Walmart has in the produce section they are very light weight and work great plus they are free. This works very well for me, the bag is nearly deflated when I get down to 45 degrees. I have never had a plugged keg valve since I started cold crashing and I have not had an oxidation issue since using the CO2 bag during chill down. Actually the only oxidation issue I have had brewing NEIPAs was when I bottled them.

 

[tld6008]

Oh, I cold crashed. That didn't help.

Then you didn't get it cold enough or you did something else to disturb the sediment or maybe your poppits wern't clean to start with. Many things could have caused your problem.

 

[plazola86]

None taken. Yes, good stuff in the OP's post, which I did review. Don't want to beat a dead horse, but I'm curious what others think. The OP provided a bunch of different iterations, from high sulfate/low chloride, to the reverse, to balanced, etc.

There are also a lot of different ppm levels I've seen (such as 250 ppm Chloride), so it seems like an area where people might have some opinions to share, which is always interesting...

Don't forget grains add a LOT of chloride and minerals to the finished beer. I've gone up to 250 chloride to 100 sulfate and get a chalky taste from them sometimes. Not sure if its yeast interaction (yeast dependent) or get a lot of mineral additions from the grain. On the Treehouse yeast thread people are paying attention to calcium and how to limit it. Calcium is a mineral people don't think about, its all about chloride and sulfate but when you add CALCIUM chloride to add chloride and gypsum for sulfate your also adding a lot CALCIUM.

 

[SRJHops]

Don't forget grains add a LOT of chloride and minerals to the finished beer. I've gone up to 250 chloride to 100 sulfate and get a chalky taste from them sometimes. Not sure if its yeast interaction (yeast dependent) or get a lot of mineral additions from the grain. On the Treehouse yeast thread people are paying attention to calcium and how to limit it. Calcium is a mineral people don't think about, its all about chloride and sulfate but when you add CALCIUM chloride to add chloride and gypsum for sulfate your also adding a lot CALCIUM.

Do you have a Ca goal for your NEIPA's?

Here is what I have so far from the water calculator, which does include the grains in the calculation. I'm adding 2.5 tsp Lactic acid, .25 tsp gypsum, 1 tsp Epsom Salt, and 1.75 tsp Calcium Chloride to get:

Ca: 106.3
Mg: 17.2
Na: 14.7
Cl: 143.7
So4: 97.6
HCO: .121

I'm realizing that it might be easier to just add the .25 gypsum to the mash water, but I've split the other additions in half between the mash and sparge water. Thoughts?

 

[plazola86]

There is no calculator that can calculate the minerals added from the grains in the final beer. Those numbers look good though. Try it, take notes, learn from it. You could always add minerals to the finished beer to see what does what.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Don't forget grains add a LOT of chloride and minerals to the finished beer...Calcium is a mineral people don't think about, its all about chloride and sulfate but when you add CALCIUM chloride to add chloride and gypsum for sulfate your also adding a lot CALCIUM.

You do want calcium though, it plays lots of useful roles in wort from thermostabilising mash enzymes to helping yeast to flocculate. This article from one of the main suppliers near Burton is a good introduction to what the different minerals do : https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/resources/technical-articles/water-water-everywhere/

But bear in mind that since British beers tend to have less grain in them, we tend to end up putting more minerals in the water - and British styles generally suit higher mineral levels. But most British brewers wouldn't dream of putting less than 100ppm calcium in their beers (except for lagers etc) and as Murphys say, more like 170ppm calcium is typical of bitter.

 

[anteater8]

I use a plastic bag that Walmart has in the produce section they are very light weight and work great plus they are free. This works very well for me, the bag is nearly deflated when I get down to 45 degrees. I have never had a plugged keg valve since I started cold crashing and I have not had an oxidation issue since using the CO2 bag during chill down. Actually the only oxidation issue I have had brewing NEIPAs was when I bottled them.

Sounds great. I recently had another thought, that I can have a T connector coming out the carboy. One end will be attached to the co2 capturing bag/balloon, the other end will have a tube going into my water jug. That way once the balloon is full, the rest of the co2 will bubble out. And then when I'm cold crashing, it will suck back all the co2 from the bag and nothing else. That way there is no monitoring involved.

 

[Sbe2]

Sounds great. I recently had another thought, that I can have a T connector coming out the carboy. One end will be attached to the co2 capturing bag/balloon, the other end will have a tube going into my water jug. That way once the balloon is full, the rest of the co2 will bubble out. And then when I'm cold crashing, it will suck back all the co2 from the bag and nothing else. That way there is no monitoring involved.

U may want a valve on your water jug side. I am no physicist, but you may get suck back from the water as well as the gas. I probably zoned out at class when the professor taught how different mediums act under a vacuum.

 

[Homergah]

U may want a valve on your water jug side. I am no physicist, but you may get suck back from the water as well as the gas. I probably zoned out at class when the professor taught how different mediums act under a vacuum.

No suck back on the liquid side without first pulling a decent vacuum on the bag. Probably not going to happen.

 

[tld6008]

Do you have a Ca goal for your NEIPA's?

Here is what I have so far from the water calculator, which does include the grains in the calculation. I'm adding 2.5 tsp Lactic acid, .25 tsp gypsum, 1 tsp Epsom Salt, and 1.75 tsp Calcium Chloride to get:

Ca: 106.3
Mg: 17.2
Na: 14.7
Cl: 143.7
So4: 97.6
HCO: .121

I'm realizing that it might be easier to just add the .25 gypsum to the mash water, but I've split the other additions in half between the mash and sparge water. Thoughts?

I just checked my syringe and 1 tsp was 5ml so you are adding 12.5ml of lactic (I'm assuming its 88%) I have never added more than 6 ml. I do know the various water calculators will give widely different acid recommendations.
FWIW I have found that Brunwater give (by far) the highest levels and MME and EZ water give amounts that result in close to expected PH readings.

 

[tld6008]

Sounds great. I recently had another thought, that I can have a T connector coming out the carboy. One end will be attached to the co2 capturing bag/balloon, the other end will have a tube going into my water jug. That way once the balloon is full, the rest of the co2 will bubble out. And then when I'm cold crashing, it will suck back all the co2 from the bag and nothing else. That way there is no monitoring involved.

I also want to rig up the T connection but want to keep the blowoff junk out of the bag so may cap it off and connect the bag after it subsides

 

[plazola86]

You do want calcium though, it plays lots of useful roles in wort from thermostabilising mash enzymes to helping yeast to flocculate. This article from one of the main suppliers near Burton is a good introduction to what the different minerals do : https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/resources/technical-articles/water-water-everywhere/

But bear in mind that since British beers tend to have less grain in them, we tend to end up putting more minerals in the water - and British styles generally suit higher mineral levels. But most British brewers wouldn't dream of putting less than 100ppm calcium in their beers (except for lagers etc) and as Murphys say, more like 170ppm calcium is typical of bitter.

Yup I agree. Never said not to add Calcium but to actually start thinking about it.

 

[SRJHops]

I just checked my syringe and 1 tsp was 5ml so you are adding 12.5ml of lactic (I'm assuming its 88%) I have never added more than 6 ml. I do know the various water calculators will give widely different acid recommendations.
FWIW I have found that Brunwater give (by far) the highest levels and MME and EZ water give amounts that result in close to expected PH readings.

That's how much the calculator on Brewers Friend said to add to get the HCO to 0, but I will compare to some other calculators. Thanks for the tip.

 

[SRJHops]

There is no calculator that can calculate the minerals added from the grains in the final beer. Those numbers look good though. Try it, take notes, learn from it. You could always add minerals to the finished beer to see what does what.

Oh. Well something changed on the Brewers Friend calculator - maybe the ph? - when I added the amounts and Lovibond for each grain.

I'll give it a go and see what happens... Thanks for the tips/comments - much appreciated!

 

[leesmith]

Oh. Well something changed on the Brewers Friend calculator - maybe the ph? - when I added the amounts and Lovibond for each grain.

I'll give it a go and see what happens... Thanks for the tips/comments - much appreciated!

Please post your complete recipe....that is way too much acid. I'll run it though Brewer'sFriend to see what I get. No offense....just trying to help.

 

[SRJHops]

Please post your complete recipe....that is way too much acid. I'll run it though Brewer'sFriend to see what I get. No offense....just trying to help.

Appreciate the help -- this is my first time using the calculator

Here is the untreated water report from the City:
Ca: 33.8
Cl: 28.3
Mg: 3.09
Alkalinity: 58
na: 14.7
Sulfate: 24.5
ph: 8.91

8.5 gallons water

8 lbs 2-row
3 lbs white wheat
.5 lb carapils
1 lb flaked barley
1 lb flaked oats

.25 tsp gypsum
1 tsp Epsom salt
1.75 tsp calcium chloride
2.5 tsp lactic acid 88%

When I do it, it shows a mash ph of 5.38 and these results:

ca: 106.3
Mg: 17.2
NA: 14.7
Cl: 143.7
So4: 97.6
HCO: .121

 

[leesmith]

Appreciate the help -- this is my first time using the calculator

Here is the untreated water report from the City:
Ca: 33.8
Cl: 28.3
Mg: 3.09
Alkalinity: 58
na: 14.7
Sulfate: 24.5
ph: 8.91

8.5 gallons water

8 lbs 2-row
3 lbs white wheat
.5 lb carapils
1 lb flaked barley
1 lb flaked oats

.25 tsp gypsum
1 tsp Epsom salt
1.75 tsp calcium chloride
2.5 tsp lactic acid 88%

When I do it, it shows a mash ph of 5.38 and these results:

ca: 106.3
Mg: 17.2
NA: 14.7
Cl: 143.7
So4: 97.6
HCO: .121

I’m at work so I’ll check later when i get home.
But are you sure the acid amount is displayed in tsp and not ml?

If you click the check box to specify acid amount by target it automatically calculates it in ml....not tsp.

And I think even if you change the drop down to tsp while this box is checked it will still display the ml amounts and not tsp....

 

[tld6008]

That's how much the calculator on Brewers Friend said to add to get the HCO to 0, but I will compare to some other calculators. Thanks for the tip.

Don't know about others but I have never adjusted my water to alter HCO. In fact I have never paid attention to it.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Don't know about others but I have never adjusted my water to alter HCO. In fact I have never paid attention to it.

HCO3 is alkalinity, right? If so everyone who adds acids adjusts it. I've never actually paid attention to the HCO3 number though, just what the estimated(and actual) mash ph is.

 

[SRJHops]

I’m at work so I’ll check later when i get home.
But are you sure the acid amount is displayed in tsp and not ml?

If you click the check box to specify acid amount by target it automatically calculates it in ml....not tsp.

And I think even if you change the drop down to tsp while this box is checked it will still display the ml amounts and not tsp....

Yes, I picked tsp bc that seemed easier to use... If I use 2.5 ml the predicted ph is 5.6, and I'm shooting for 5.4. It's 5.38 when I do the salt and acid additions, unless I am doing something wrong...

 

[SRJHops]

HCO3 is alkalinity, right? If so everyone who adds acids adjusts it. I've never actually paid attention to the HCO3 number though, just what the estimated(and actual) mash ph is.

Yes, I believe the HCO number comes from the akalinity. It appears that the only way I can lower the ph enough -- and hit my Cl and So4 targets -- is to add some Lactic Acid 88%. The ph is 5.67 without the lactic acid, and 5.38 with it.

I can see how depending on the water you start with, you may not need to add any acid. I am using tap water, not RO or distilled.