New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Quick question about the pre-boil pH. I know your results are not going to mirror mine with different water profiles, grains/maltsters etc., but could you let me know what you typically see for untreated pre-boil pH after sparging. I'm wondering what happens when higher pH sparge runoff interacts with the wort from the mash. I don't own a pH meter and use Brun water to produce pretty good beers (usually) and unfortunately a pH meter is not going to be in the budget any time soon. I'm thinking if I hit a mash pH of 5.2, the grains will have a lesser buffer and the sparge may be lets say 5.6. Does that mean you can expect a pre-boil pH of 5.3-5.35 or does it end up being a lot closer to the mash pH of 5.2 once its in the kettle. Based on calculations I think I can treat the pre-boil wort with about 3mL of lactic acid to bring it down to 5.0 if its starting at 5.2, but I really have no idea what preboil pH would look like for certain mashes as I've never seen a calculator for that or read of anyone providing their own personal information.

My pre-boil pH typically ends up pretty close to my mash pH, maybe 0.03-0.05 higher. It depends a lot on your sparging strategy I would think. I do BIAB but I don't do full volume mashes. I mash with 1.25-1.5 qt/lb and then transfer the grain bag to my sparge water and do a sparge "rest" before combining the worts in my kettle. That combined wort before I boil is when I measure pre-boil pH.

 

[tld6008]

Anyone who has used 1272 for this beer, what ferm temps/schedule are you using?

See post 5803, the OP said this yeast worked well.

 

[plazola86]

Quick question about the pre-boil pH. I know your results are not going to mirror mine with different water profiles, grains/maltsters etc., but could you let me know what you typically see for untreated pre-boil pH after sparging. I'm wondering what happens when higher pH sparge runoff interacts with the wort from the mash. I don't own a pH meter and use Brun water to produce pretty good beers (usually) and unfortunately a pH meter is not going to be in the budget any time soon. I'm thinking if I hit a mash pH of 5.2, the grains will have a lesser buffer and the sparge may be lets say 5.6. Does that mean you can expect a pre-boil pH of 5.3-5.35 or does it end up being a lot closer to the mash pH of 5.2 once its in the kettle. Based on calculations I think I can treat the pre-boil wort with about 3mL of lactic acid to bring it down to 5.0 if its starting at 5.2, but I really have no idea what preboil pH would look like for certain mashes as I've never seen a calculator for that or read of anyone providing their own personal information.

I do full volume mash BIAB so my mash PH doesn't change much. I get what your saying about the sparge water and grain buffering effect after the mash but without a PH meter its impossible to tell where your PH is going to be after mashing and sparging. PH calculators have a hard enough time predicting mash PH even after plugging in your exact recipe and water profile. Start saving your pennies for a good PH meter, all the calculators do a fine job but in the end the only real way to measure is to actually pull a sample and see exactly where your at.

 

[troglodytes]

My pre-boil pH typically ends up pretty close to my mash pH, maybe 0.03-0.05 higher. It depends a lot on your sparging strategy I would think. I do BIAB but I don't do full volume mashes. I mash with 1.25-1.5 qt/lb and then transfer the grain bag to my sparge water and do a sparge "rest" before combining the worts in my kettle. That combined wort before I boil is when I measure pre-boil pH.

That's very similar to my sparging process as well as I BIAB, in a mash tun instead using my old manifold. Makes life easier since I use a lot of rye and wheat in my beers, and I get a lot less volume losses. I'm going to estimate that I need to lower my pre-boil pH from 5.25 to 5.0 which estimates to 3.6ml of lactic acid per Brun water. I'll keep it to 3ml to be safe, and even if I don't hit 5.0 I'll be squarely in that 5.0-5.1 window which should be a big improvement over my past batches. This is great info and something I never considered when brewing IPAs and upping my late additions and dry hops.

I've been researching a lot since I started following this thread and read that some people do a quick dose of lactic when adding the dry hops as well to offset the pH rise from the large DH addition. That seems a bit overkill, especially if your beer is nearing FG at a pH of 4.1-4.3 when the DH goes in. At worst I would assume a 0.05 rise in pH which would still land you where you want to be with a dry hoppy ale, right?

Edit: @plazola86 I was thinking about doing a full BIAB no sparge this time around for that exact reason. I also find I'll need less gypsum and lactic if doing it that way, per the calculator. I just don't like the idea of that large of an efficiency drop. I've never actually gone no sparge before, but I can expect an efficiency drop from my norm 72% to around the mid-60s right?

 

[beervoid]

That's very similar to my sparging process as well as I BIAB, in a mash tun instead using my old manifold. Makes life easier since I use a lot of rye and wheat in my beers, and I get a lot less volume losses. I'm going to estimate that I need to lower my pre-boil pH from 5.25 to 5.0 which estimates to 3.6ml of lactic acid per Brun water. I'll keep it to 3ml to be safe, and even if I don't hit 5.0 I'll be squarely in that 5.0-5.1 window which should be a big improvement over my past batches. This is great info and something I never considered when brewing IPAs and upping my late additions and dry hops.

I've been researching a lot since I started following this thread and read that some people do a quick dose of lactic when adding the dry hops as well to offset the pH rise from the large DH addition. That seems a bit overkill, especially if your beer is nearing FG at a pH of 4.1-4.3 when the DH goes in. At worst I would assume a 0.05 rise in pH which would still land you where you want to be with a dry hoppy ale, right?

Edit: @plazola86 I was thinking about doing a full BIAB no sparge this time around for that exact reason. I also find I'll need less gypsum and lactic if doing it that way, per the calculator. I just don't like the idea of that large of an efficiency drop. I've never actually gone no sparge before, but I can expect an efficiency drop from my norm 72% to around the mid-60s right?

I've been playing around with numerous prediction software for a while now and I can say they are pretty unpredictable to rely on for KO PH.
Sometimes they are spot on and sometimes it's a big miss.. My guess is there is so much happening in the boil as well that influences PH.
Massive hops in the whirlpool influence PH and then comes the problem that every yeasts finishes with a different PH as well.
If you wanna do it right you really need to get a PH meter and carefully measure and note PH all along the way.

If you don't have money for an expensive PH meter the cheaper ones will work for a while and then at least you can see what your particular grist and yeast for your batch do and you will be able to anticipate better.

 

[SanPancho]

Actually you can estimate fairly well in kettle. Using either lactic or phosphoric. Aj spelled out the formula here not too long ago. And the hop ph creep is well known, about .15 per gal/bbl.

 

[SRJHops]

These past couple pages are really interesting when it comes to the whirlpool vs dryhop debate. I've attempted several APA/IPAs in the past year with my process shifting toward more and more whirlpool hops coupled with a small FWH and about 4oz dry hop. I have found that my results grew worse the more whirlpool hops I added (try to add at about 180F, but usually its at 170F). Grassy unpleasant flavors all around or vegatal/belgiany flavors is what overpowered nearly all IPAs I've brewed with each one getting worse the more hops I added. The one brew I did that came out mediocre was a Dialed-In clone I attempted (and was great until it was oxidized about 5 weeks post bottling) and that one differed in that it added small hop charges every 7 minutes from 20 minutes to end of boil and had a much larger dry hop than whirlpool. I'll blame that beer's flavor loss on my bottling practices.

But now I'm reading here talk of whirlpooling at 1 oz per gallon and dryhopping at 1.5oz per gallon. If my last 4 IPAs are any indication of success at those rates I will be drinking lawn clippings. I'm obviously doing something wrong although I'm managing my water profile and pH. I'm usually at 150:100 sulfate to chloride with a mash pH of 5.3. I'm barely stirring my whirlpools as to not slosh and get a large amount of O2. I'm using, not fresh, but well stored hops that smell good.

I'm going to brew a version of this as an El Dorado IPA which will be my first batch I keg (which hopefully helps with the O2). My hopping schedule is planned as for 5.5 gallons into the fermenter:

.25 oz Columbus FWH
1 oz Columbus @ 10min
.5 oz Columbus / 1 oz El Dorado @ 5min
1 oz El Dorado / 1 oz Huell Melon @ flameout
2 oz El Dorado / 2 oz Huell Melon whirlpooled for 20min @ 160F
2 oz El Dorado / 2 oz Huell Melon Dry Hop @ day 4
2 oz El Dorado Dry Hop in keg

Honestly, I'm a bit frightened to do this as this is more hops than I've ever used in a batch and my track record with large whirlpooled / dryhopped beers is not good...at all. Am I on the right track or do I need to adjust something?

I was thinking about hop ratios for NEIPA's and your recipe, and it got me wondering if most people try to balance their hop additions, or use different ratios?

I've seen a Juicy Bits recipe (shared by the brewer) that totally balances the hops (33% each of Mosaic, Citra, El Dorado). But I LOVE Toppling Goliath Sosus, and I think it's 100% Mosaic.

I'm brewing this weekend and thinking more like your recipe and going with 50% Mosaic, 30% Citra, and 20% Simcoe. (Or maybe I'll swap the Citra and Mosaic ratios.)

Anyone have thoughts/recommendations? There's equally balanced, single hop, or some ratio (like 50%, 30%, 20%).

Maybe the answer is that as long as you use enough hops it can turn out quite tasty!

 

[Dgallo]

I was thinking about hop ratios for NEIPA's and your recipe, and it got me wondering if most people try to balance their hop additions, or use different ratios?

I've seen a Juicy Bits recipe (shared by the brewer) that totally balances the hops (33% each of Mosaic, Citra, El Dorado). But I LOVE Toppling Goliath Sosus, and I think it's 100% Mosaic.

I'm brewing this weekend and thinking more like your recipe and going with 50% Mosaic, 30% Citra, and 20% Simcoe. (Or maybe I'll swap the Citra and Mosaic ratios.)

Anyone have thoughts/recommendations? There's equally balanced, single hop, or some ratio (like 50%, 30%, 20%).

Maybe the answer is that as long as you use enough hops it can turn out quite tasty!

When creating a hoping ratio I always base it on each hops total oil content and my intended outcome. But there are truly many ways to skin a cat here and it all about personal preference. Taking your hops in consideration. Simcoe is mosaics father... seriously lol. So when mosaic is paired with simcoe, more of its pine and earth characteristics will come through. So if I wanted that profile to be balanced, I would keep the hop ratio as you originally suggested. If I wanted more pine I would drop the mosaic and increase the simcoe. If I wanted to show case the citrus fruit character of the beer, I’d elevate the citra addition.

 

[cheesebach]

Not necessarily - my new toy (yeast harvester) from NorCal enabled me to add dryhops to carbed beer with no O2 exposure. Of course you need the right set up to make this work.

Dry hop added to spunded (15lbs) NEIPA. I did lower pressure a bit so I could push the dry hop back in to fermentor.

View attachment 607455

Do you mind explaining exactly what you’re doing to get the hops into the beer in this setup? Also, doesn’t your Speidel seem like it could explode any minute at 15psi? I was hoping I’d be able to use mine to do pressurized fermentation’s as well, but the bottom of mine starts bulging out at just a few psi which makes the thing unstable as the bottom isn’t flat at that point.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

I use 18 ounces regular hops for a 6 gallon batch. Good to know that Pinthouse's Electric Jellyfish uses the same amount!

These NEIPAs are pricey! Our homebrew shop has some hops in larger packets, so that cuts the cost a little, but I am spending around $75 per batch. I get about 25 bombers, and I always figure it's still cheaper than $13 bombers of NEIPA I can purchase at the store!

I do always pay attention to the folks who say less hops is more, but I admit that so far my experience has been the opposite -- more hops gets me closer to Toppling Goliath and the extremely tasty local NEIPA's.

Soon enough you'll be able to compare! Looking at Norther Brewer for bulk prices and see if my boys at LHBS will match. Getting down to $75 for a massive hop bomb sounds like a good goal.

Added 1oz Cryo Citra this morning. Seems improved for sure. After about 10 dumps...feeling pretty ecstatic. As much as a 50yr can get anyway. [emoji39]

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Ah, that probably explains why it’s working well for you but not for me. I don’t apply any pressure early in the fermentation (unless I were trying to avoid yeast ester production).

Did I just learn something? I just did it see how it works and play around with the valve pressure settings. I thought the yeast was a little underwhelming. Chalked it up to simultaneously adding Safale05. Avoiding yeast ester was NOT the goal..

 

[ttuato]

Do you mind explaining exactly what you’re doing to get the hops into the beer in this setup? Also, doesn’t your Speidel seem like it could explode any minute at 15psi? I was hoping I’d be able to use mine to do pressurized fermentation’s as well, but the bottom of mine starts bulging out at just a few psi which makes the thing unstable as the bottom isn’t flat at that point.

• Speidel - I have had it up to 27PSI before testing pressure. Yes it bulges and swells but it never leaked. I have the 20lb spring in the PRV at top. Norcal had similar results testing these. I ferment inside a converted minifridge so the bulge doesnt bother anything.
• It is the yeast harvester from Norcal. Put in hops, loosely attach to fermentor, purge w/ gas a few times, tighten hoses, open flow to allow beer into jar to mix with hops. Let hops rest / swell - then apply gas to push hops back into fermentor. This is basically a hop cannon / hop gun for homebrewers. If you want a video of the process PM me w/ email address and I will send to you.

 

[ttuato]

Interesting thing occurred. While test out my new toy, I sacrificed from “fresh” (from sealed freezer bag) 2017 hops that I did not care for. Add the 9oz hops to a jar mixed with just plain tap water. I set the jar aside and a few days later I was shocked to see it look like this:

The water had turned brown. This got me thinking - maybe all of the “brown neipa” that keep happening is more a function of the high dry hop rather than use of flaked adjuncts. Thoughts?

 

[Dgallo]

Interesting thing occurred. While test out my new toy, I sacrificed from “fresh” (from sealed freezer bag) 2017 hops that I did not care for. Add the 9oz hops to a jar mixed with just plain tap water. I set the jar aside and a few days later I was shocked to see it look like this:
View attachment 607672


The water had turned brown. This got me thinking - maybe all of the “brown neipa” that keep happening is more a function of the high dry hop rather than use of flaked adjuncts. Thoughts?

Yeah, I’ve always attributed it to the oxidation of the polyphenals and chlorophyll in the hop material

 

[ttuato]

Did I just learn something? I just did it see how it works and play around with the valve pressure settings. I thought the yeast was a little underwhelming. Chalked it up to simultaneously adding Safale05. Avoiding yeast ester was NOT the goal..

Learn more here: Beersmith podcast w/ Chris White of White Labs. Topic Pressure Fermentation - http://beersmith.com/blog/2018/01/1...s-white-john-blichmann-beersmith-podcast-163/

 

[SRJHops]

Interesting thing occurred. While test out my new toy, I sacrificed from “fresh” (from sealed freezer bag) 2017 hops that I did not care for. Add the 9oz hops to a jar mixed with just plain tap water. I set the jar aside and a few days later I was shocked to see it look like this:
View attachment 607672


The water had turned brown. This got me thinking - maybe all of the “brown neipa” that keep happening is more a function of the high dry hop rather than use of flaked adjuncts. Thoughts?

Yeah, I concur with Dgallo that it's the phenols. They make the NEIPA's so tasty and hazy, but they also greatly increase the risk of oxidation.

Think of a regular IPA with a "normal" amount of hops. Like the brewing books recommended, I used to transfer them to secondary and then to the bottling bucket, and they didn't oxidize much. Do that to a NEIPA and you are almost certainly going to turn it brown.

Ever since I started doing everything possible to avoid cold side oxygen, including keeping everything in primary for 2 weeks and bottling straight into bombers with sugar tablets, my NEIPA's are turning out SO MUCH better -- and actually getting tastier after a few weeks in the bottle.

 

[ttuato]

Yeah, I concur with Dgallo that it's the phenols. They make the NEIPA's so tasty and hazy, but they also greatly increase the risk of oxidation.

Think of a regular IPA with a "normal" amount of hops. Like the brewing books recommended, I used to transfer them to secondary and then to the bottling bucket, and they didn't oxidize much. Do that to a NEIPA and you are almost certainly going to turn it brown.

Ever since I started doing everything possible to avoid cold side oxygen, including keeping everything in primary for 2 weeks and bottling straight into bombers with sugar tablets, my NEIPA's are turning out SO MUCH better -- and actually getting tastier after a few weeks in the bottle.

I agree it is likely polyphenols in solution that caUsing the browning oxidation. I too do all LODO cold side, but What I (think) learned this go round is that the EXTENDED contact time with hops = more
Oxidation due to excess polyphenols extracted. Here is the beer I brewed recently - soft crashed to 58 after FG, added dry hops, 12hours later dropped to 40 for full crash, kegged after 30hours on hops. This was hydrometer sample. It sat open air for two days as did not brown at all. After those two days, I moved it to this mason jar where it has been for an addditinal four days - so six days in presence of atmospheric O2 - color is exact same as beer from keg.

Lesson for me - shorten hop contact time to improve risk of oxidative matter (polyphenol???) in beer. Now this isn’t necessarily a shocking discovery, but it cements my thinking that keg hopping is bad, and the “bio transformation” hopping can have some negative aspects too due to extended contact time.

 

[Dgallo]

I agree it is likely polyphenols in solution that caUsing the browning oxidation. I too do all LODO cold side, but What I (think) learned this go round is that the EXTENDED contact time with hops = more
Oxidation due to excess polyphenols extracted. Here is the beer I brewed recently - soft crashed to 58 after FG, added dry hops, 12hours later dropped to 40 for full crash, kegged after 30hours on hops. This was hydrometer sample. It sat open air for two days as did not brown at all. After those two days, I moved it to this mason jar where it has been for an addditinal four days - so six days in presence of atmospheric O2 - color is exact same as beer from keg.

Lesson for me - shorten hop contact time to improve risk of oxidative matter (polyphenol???) in beer. Now this isn’t necessarily a shocking discovery, but it cements my thinking that keg hopping is bad, and the “bio transformation” hopping can have some negative aspects too due to extended contact time.
View attachment 608189

Another thing people aren’t exploring is the impact excess chlorophyll will have on oxidation and other negatives /off flavors. With IPAs, especially NE IPA’s, we are crushing these beers with green matter. Think of any leafy green vegetable, they are all green due to chlorophyll and if theyre exposed to moisture or left in water for a prolonged period of time, they will brown. Obviously this is anecdotal, but it is true for all greens, I’m concluding that chlorophyll also plays a role in the oxidation

 

[ttuato]

Another thing people aren’t exploring is the impact excess chlorophyll will have on oxidation and other negatives /off flavors. With IPAs, especially NE IPA’s, we are crushing these beers with green matter. Think of any leafy green vegetable, they are all green due to chlorophyll and if theyre exposed to moisture or left in water for a prolonged period of time, they will brown. Obviously this is anecdotal, but it is true for all greens, I’m concluding that chlorophyll also plays a role in the oxidation

That too!

 

[beervoid]

I agree it is likely polyphenols in solution that caUsing the browning oxidation. I too do all LODO cold side, but What I (think) learned this go round is that the EXTENDED contact time with hops = more
Oxidation due to excess polyphenols extracted. Here is the beer I brewed recently - soft crashed to 58 after FG, added dry hops, 12hours later dropped to 40 for full crash, kegged after 30hours on hops. This was hydrometer sample. It sat open air for two days as did not brown at all. After those two days, I moved it to this mason jar where it has been for an addditinal four days - so six days in presence of atmospheric O2 - color is exact same as beer from keg.

Lesson for me - shorten hop contact time to improve risk of oxidative matter (polyphenol???) in beer. Now this isn’t necessarily a shocking discovery, but it cements my thinking that keg hopping is bad, and the “bio transformation” hopping can have some negative aspects too due to extended contact time.
View attachment 608189

Did you rouse or shake after dry hopping?
Was the beer as pungent as your other beers?

Was it faster drinkable then others?
What was the grainbill?

How did the sample taste after being exposed to o2 for a while?

 

[ttuato]

Did you rouse or shake after dry hopping?
Was the beer as pungent as your other beers?

Was it faster drinkable then others?
What was the grainbill?

How did the sample taste after being exposed to o2 for a while?

No rousing.

Pungency - on par with usual. 1.5-1.75oz/gal dryhop

93% 2 row
5% flaked wheat
2% honey malt

Faster drinkable? Not sure what you are asking. It is 6.2% -still fresh in keg.

Taste / smell - I could tell it had oxidized but did not seem as bad as I would have expected after six days. The crazy part to me is the color it is still the same as fresh beer. In past versions with extended hop exposure the beer would have been discolored after one day of sitting in glass. This is day six.

 

[beervoid]

No rousing.

Pungency - on par with usual. 1.5-1.75oz/gal dryhop

93% 2 row
5% flaked wheat
2% honey malt

Faster drinkable? Not sure what you are asking. It is 6.2% -still fresh in keg.

Taste / smell - I could tell it had oxidized but did not seem as bad as I would have expected after six days. The crazy part to me is the color it is still the same as fresh beer. In past versions with extended hop exposure the beer would have been discolored after one day of sitting in glass. This is day six.

Yes thats remarkable indeed.

With drinkable I mean how long after kegging was it not green anymore?
I would be expect the beer to be clearer more drinkable faster as there where less polyphenols..

 

[leesmith]

Taste / smell - I could tell it had oxidized but did not seem as bad as I would have expected after six days. The crazy part to me is the color it is still the same as fresh beer. In past versions with extended hop exposure the beer would have been discolored after one day of sitting in glass. This is day six.

So you have done this same experiment with “extended” dry hopped beers?

Also, do you use Irish moss or whirlfloc and transfer clear wort to the fermenter?

 

[Dgallo]

I don’t notice too many ppl fining their IPAs anymore. I don’t think it makes a difference aesthetically after Dryhopping. Also since proteins have a positive attraction to oils, not using whirlfloc or Irish moss is actually benefiting overall hop flavor and aroma.

 

[beervoid]

I don’t notice too many ppl fining their IPAs anymore. I don’t think it makes a difference aesthetically after Dryhopping. Also since proteins have a positive attraction to oils, not using whirlfloc or Irish moss is actually benefiting overall hop flavor and aroma.

Isn't irish moss usefull to get unwanted stuff out of the fermenter, I doubt it would get any proteins out. I didn't taste a difference flavor or aroma, body wise... I did get the benefit of faster clearer beer, NEIPA without whirlfloc stay murky longer in my experience.
Tried finding any research or experiences about whirlfloc and if it really strips the beer of wanted things in a NEIPA but couldn't find much data.
Have you experienced better NEIPA without whirlfloc?

 

[Dgallo]

Isn't irish moss usefull to get unwanted stuff out of the fermenter, I doubt it would get any proteins out. I didn't taste a difference flavor or aroma, body wise... I did get the benefit of faster clearer beer, NEIPA without whirlfloc stay murky longer in my experience.
Tried finding any research or experiences about whirlfloc and if it really strips the beer of wanted things in a NEIPA.
Have you experienced better NEIPA without whirlfloc?

The only purpose for Irish moss is to improve clarity by attaching to proteins and makes them drop out of suspension. It only works on proteins, which is why it should not be used on NE IPA because proteins are the main contributor to haze. I’m not saying Irish moss is bad, it’s great for beers styles where clarity is a must. For IPAs I think it’s pointless to use it because it does not drop out hop particulates or polyphenols, so it will not clear the haze produce from that, also because proteins attract hop oils, having proteins in the fermenter will benefit the extraction of the hop oils from Dryhopping

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Isn't irish moss usefull to get unwanted stuff out of the fermenter, I doubt it would get any proteins out.

No - the whole point of Irish moss (and related products) is that it's a big lump of negative charge at wort pH's that attracts positively-charged protein that sticks to the moss in the kettle and drops out of the beer. The only reason you add it is to drop out protein.

Cold-side finings (isinglass, gelatine) are made from (big, insoluble) proteins so have a positive charge, so they attract all the negatively-charged crap in the fermenter.

If you've dropped out both the positively-charged crap and the negatively-charged crap in the two phases, you should have clear beer!

 

[ttuato]

So you have done this same experiment with “extended” dry hopped beers?

Also, do you use Irish moss or whirlfloc and transfer clear wort to the fermenter?

Yes - extended beers but not “head to head trial”. Browning after one day. Taste is very oxidized

No - fining agents on NEIPa

 

[leesmith]

Brewed December 1st.
Picture taken January 12th (still this hazy as of yesterday).
Whirlfloc at 5 min.

4 day dry hop. Crashed and carbonated for a week after and then taken off hops.

Please stop saying not to use finings in this style. It’s OK to.
I get clear wort in the fermenter.
Basic 2-row, white wheat, c20 malt bill.

I’ll try the experiment with the next hoppy beer to see if a sample turns brown quickly. I’m LODO on the cold side if that matters.

 

[Dgallo]

View attachment 608357

Brewed December 1st.
Picture taken January 12th (still this hazy as of yesterday).
Whirlfloc at 5 min.

4 day dry hop. Crashed and carbonated for a week after and then taken off hops.

Please stop saying not to use finings in this style. It’s OK to.
I get clear wort in the fermenter.
Basic 2-row, white wheat, c20 malt bill.

I’ll try the experiment with the next hoppy beer to see if a sample turns brown quickly. I’m LODO on the cold side if that matters.

Sure its fine to put a whirlfloc tab in any beer, nothing wrong with it, the point is that It’s a waste of time for this style. Whirlfloc only drops out proteins. Proteins do not increase beer degrade in anyway. So for hazy beer styles you are wasting your 1/2 tab of whirlfloc since your looking for a hazy beer in the end anyway. Here’s a NE without one. As you can see not much difference so why waste it.

 

[Dgallo]

I just re read your post about time frame. Your beer has only been in a keg cold for a little less than a month. If you can remember and the beer lasts that long without kicking, PM me a picture 2 weeks from now. I’d like to see if it’s drops at all. I would think it would but again that’s just based on theory, not actual practice.

 

[leesmith]

So if you want to repitch your yeast you’d want all those proteins mixed in? Bad practice.

It’s not critical to this style to not use it and or use it...so it’s a moot point to stress NOT to.

It plays no role as a style guideline.

Many times I see advice given to NOT use it because you’ll get better haze. That’s not true.

 

[Dgallo]

I get your point here, it’s possible to make a hazy beer still using one. I’m not denying that I just don’t see the point if you want it hazy in the end.
Just a side note,

So if you want to repitch your yeast you’d want all those proteins mixed in? Bad practice.

if you want to repitch yeast, it’s certainly ok to have some protein in it, It’s not bad practice. Yeast need amino acids for optimum health. The Yeast will pull the amino acids from that protein. They will use what they need and then the rest will drop out.

 

[leesmith]

I get your point here, it’s possible to make a hazy beer still using one. I’m not denying that I just don’t see the point if you want it hazy in the end.
Just a side note,

If you want to repitch yeast, it’s certainly ok to have some protein in it, It’s not bad practice. Yeast need amino acids for optimum health. The Yeast will pull the amino acids from that protein. They will use what they need and then the rest will drop out.

There will probably be enough protein for the yeast regardless of using whirlfloc (I'm no scientist though). If not using it, by the 4th generation how much of that slurry is protein vs yeast; especially if not using a conical to drop out the trub during primary?

So far my my beers tend to stay hazy until they kick. Unfortunately, I don't keep them that long considering I only do 2.5 gallon batches. But yeah I’ve had them for a month and a half or longer though.
I do know couchsending uses finings (cold side too I think) and says his haze lasts.

 

[Dgallo]

There will probably be enough protein for the yeast regardless of using whirlfloc (I'm no scientist though). If not using it, by the 4th generation how much of that slurry is protein vs yeast; especially if not using a conical to drop out the trub during primary?.

I got you. I thought we’re talking about harvesting the yeast through a conical and then repitching not racking on to it. Your probably correct that if you plan on reusing the yeast cake from a flat FV, you probably want to top harvest the yeast or only transfer clear wort into them

 

[kaz4121]

My apologies if this was already mentioned but has anyone heard about Tom Shellhammer's research on dry hopping?

https://patspints.com/2019/01/16/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping-lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/

Tl;DR: 8 g/L (1.1 oz/gal) is essentially the saturation point for hop oil/aroma extraction from dry hops

 

[beervoid]

My apologies if this was already mentioned but has anyone heard about Tom Shellhammer's research on dry hopping?

https://patspints.com/2019/01/16/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping-lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/

Tl;DR: 8 g/L (1.1 oz/gal) is essentially the saturation point for hop oil/aroma extraction from dry hops

I've read some of his stuff, my one remark on it would be that alot of scientific research on dry hopping i've read is done mostly with Cascade and or other cheaper hops.
As every hop has different oil content I don't think you can conclude that the research on Cascade counts for every hop.
It's known that some pro's go over ridiculous amounts of dry hopping. 5+ BBL. I doubt they do that with Cascade though... some of them also have centrifuges which makes it more easyer to extract the goodness from large amounts me thinks as they can get all the unwanted stuff out which otherwise would absorb any extra oils from the added extra hops.

I would like to see some research with some of the popular pungent hops mosaic citra or galaxy and also dumping the hops before adding another dose (double dry hopping) and how that would translate to the current research

 

[Dgallo]

My apologies if this was already mentioned but has anyone heard about Tom Shellhammer's research on dry hopping?

https://patspints.com/2019/01/16/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping-lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/

Tl;DR: 8 g/L (1.1 oz/gal) is essentially the saturation point for hop oil/aroma extraction from dry hops

Very interesting article. Kind of concludes what I’ve noticed through my own trial and error. I typically dry hop at around .8oz per gallon but no more than 1oz per gallon. I’ve found that my aroma/flavor intensity does not increase after this point, also I’ve found the aroma/flavor is cleaner (less muddled) and showcases a(n) greater specific hop verietal(s) profile.

For a while now I’ve been systematically reducing my total hop use for IPA/NEIPA. I’m a firm believer that more does not mean better. I’m down to 2-2.4 total oz per gallon and am producing my best beers yet.

 

[leesmith]

My apologies if this was already mentioned but has anyone heard about Tom Shellhammer's research on dry hopping?

https://patspints.com/2019/01/16/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping-lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/

Tl;DR: 8 g/L (1.1 oz/gal) is essentially the saturation point for hop oil/aroma extraction from dry hops

One point to note.

If dry hopping using bags to contain hops to prevent clogging then the amounts are different. Extraction is not as efficient in bags. So adjustments should be made to taste.

 

[Sbe2]

I’m down to 2-2.4 total oz per gallon and am producing my best beers yet.

Same here. Seems to be a good sweet spot for me. I have been moving the amounts and time they go in, but I like to keep the total hop amount the same.

Although, I bought a pound of Cascade pellets from a work buddy of mine. He gave them to me in a ziplock so I decided to brew with them as quick as I could. I just added half a pound for a DH, the rest was in the kettle.