New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[hezagenius]

I've often wondered about no-boil NEIPAs. Are there any grains that require a boil to drive off flavors? If you don't plan to add hops until after flameout, then no-boil would save a ton of time. Or maybe just a quick 5 min boil for sanitizing the chiller and then cool it down again.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

New No-Boil location. It got moved. Just FYI.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/660329/

 

[SRJHops]

It's on my list to try. Created a thread just for No-Boils. Come check it out join in on the conversation.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/660329/

Will do - thanks for starting the thread.

 

[milldoggy]

Imprint brewery in pa just did a no boil, need to get up there and try it

 

[ba-brewer]

Imprint brewery in pa just did a no boil, need to get up there and try itView attachment 605328

dug around on their site but never found that beer but I did find this one
https://www.instagram.com/p/BqzgL4Jnpcw/

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Yep..No Boils are making a charge. Next phase in HBs.

 

[6Tap]

Nope,
I’m not
Doing
It.
I like them hot
And boiling!

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Nope,
I’m not
Doing
It.
I like them hot
And boiling!

You doing the next FotHB? Plan on having several No-Boils..if their worthy of course.

 

[SRJHops]

It can certainly be done. I would still boil the wort for 5/10 minutes. I know you can pasteurize above 175 but I wouldn’t feel comfortable with that. With extract brewing it should be easy to accomplish a no boil. If you’re doing 5gal all grain, the only problem I would foresee tanking in your efficiency, especially if your shoot for 1.060 or better. You would probably have to single batch mash w/o a sparge.

Thanks. I think I will try for a 10-15 minute boil for good measure.

My current plan is to do a 3-gallon partial mash (single batch no sparge as you suggest) and let it sit in the tun overnight, then boil it the next day and add DME late addition and top off with water to get to 6 gallons into the fermenter. I am both trying to save time AND figure out how to boil smaller volumes on my weak indoor stovetop this winter.

I think I'll save trying the no-boil for 100% DME recipes..

 

[tld6008]

Thanks. I think I will try for a 10-15 minute boil for good measure.

My current plan is to do a 3-gallon partial mash (single batch no sparge as you suggest) and let it sit in the tun overnight, then boil it the next day and add DME late addition and top off with water to get to 6 gallons into the fermenter. I am both trying to save time AND figure out how to boil smaller volumes on my weak indoor stovetop this winter.

I think I'll save trying the no-boil for 100% DME recipes..

FYI, I had a situation where I wanted to let my mash sit overnight but after researching it the consensus was the grain could sour if they cooled down, which mine would have. I have let the pre-boil wort sit over night a few times with no ill effects

 

[Northern_Brewer]

This is a good piece on where we are with hop biotransformation - in short, there's anecdote to support it but it's kinda hard to nail down whilst we're waiting for proper science to be done on it :
https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/blo...-understanding-hop-compound-biotransformation

 

[Dgallo]

This is a good piece on where we are with hop biotransformation - in short, there's anecdote to support it but it's kinda hard to nail down whilst we're waiting for proper science to be done on it :
https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/blo...-understanding-hop-compound-biotransformation

I’m a believer of the biotransformation of hop flavors, However I do not believe it elevates an aroma or flavor, just makes it different.

I did an experiment last August where I brewed the same ipa. Both were ddh with 2 - 2 oz additions. The control was dry hopped at day 5 and day 2 before kegging. The experimental was dry hopped on day 2 of fermentation(the biotransformation addition) and again 2 days from keg. My and those who tried it anecdotal perception of the beers were that did taste and smell different, not overwhelmingly but different. We were ,however, unable to determine if the biotransformation made the beer any better. We concluded that it has the potential to cause a different flavor and aroma in the beer, which may or may not benefit the overall perception of a beer.

 

[wepeeler]

I’m a believer of the biotransformation of hop flavors, However I do not believe it elevates an aroma or flavor, just makes it different.

I did an experiment last August where I brewed the same ipa. Both were ddh with 2 - 2 oz additions. The control was dry hopped at day 5 and day 2 before kegging. The experimental was dry hopped on day 2 of fermentation(the biotransformation addition) and again 2 days from keg. My and those who tried it anecdotal perception of the beers were that did taste and smell different, not overwhelmingly but different. We were ,however, unable to determine if the biotransformation made the beer any better. We concluded that it has the potential to cause a different flavor and aroma in the beer, which may or may not benefit the overall perception of a beer.

I could be totally off, but I feel as though I get a certain sweetness when I dry hop for biotransformation vs when I do not. My perception could be off, because I know when I dry hop. The only way to really tell would be to not know the schedule, therefore having no external factors influencing my tastebuds.

 

[JohnConnor]

I’m a believer of the biotransformation of hop flavors, However I do not believe it elevates an aroma or flavor, just makes it different.

I did an experiment last August where I brewed the same ipa. Both were ddh with 2 - 2 oz additions. The control was dry hopped at day 5 and day 2 before kegging. The experimental was dry hopped on day 2 of fermentation(the biotransformation addition) and again 2 days from keg. My and those who tried it anecdotal perception of the beers were that did taste and smell different, not overwhelmingly but different. We were ,however, unable to determine if the biotransformation made the beer any better. We concluded that it has the potential to cause a different flavor and aroma in the beer, which may or may not benefit the overall perception of a beer.

Curious, what hops did you use? I've found that certain hops/hop combinations will lend themselves to move flavor/aroma shifting than others.

 

[Dgallo]

I could be totally off, but I feel as though I get a certain sweetness when I dry hop for biotransformation vs when I do not. My perception could be off, because I know when I dry hop. The only way to really tell would be to not know the schedule, therefore having no external factors influencing my tastebuds.

That’s the great thing about beer personal preference and perception Differ, the reason there are so many different styles and variations. You could certainly be perceiving more sweetness. But now the question is what is causing it. Is it the actual biotransformation or is it that the yeast themselves floccing out and taking the spicy/bitter hop particulates with it. Or is it even the earlier dh giving the hop particulates more time to drop out on their own prior to kegging that provides the sweet perception for you. I don’t know the answer to those question, just theorizing the possibilities.

 

[Dgallo]

Curious, what hops did you use? I've found that certain hops/hop combinations will lend themselves to move flavor/aroma shifting than others.

Citra and mosaic, both dry hops were split 1/2 and 1/2 for both the control and experimental

 

[stickyfinger]

This is a somewhat interesting podcast episode on dry hopping:

http://masterbrewerspodcast.com/109-timing-is-everything

 

[SRJHops]

FYI, I had a situation where I wanted to let my mash sit overnight but after researching it the consensus was the grain could sour if they cooled down, which mine would have. I have let the pre-boil wort sit over night a few times with no ill effects

Keeping pre-boil wort vs mash overnight is interesting... But in theory wouldn't the souring (lactobacillus) have as good a chance of spoiling the pre-boil wort as the wort sitting in mash? Or did you keep the pre-boil wort simmering at 140 or so overnight?

After doing some more research, it would seem that keeping the overnight mash above 130 might be better than letting pre-boil wort cool down.

I have not tried it yet, but I bet I can keep the temp above 130 in my insulated mash tun overnight - even more so if I wrapped it in a blanket and/or placed my heating pad on or under it...

 

[milldoggy]

Keeping pre-boil wort vs mash overnight is interesting... But in theory wouldn't the souring (lactobacillus) have as good a chance of spoiling the pre-boil wort as the wort sitting in mash? Or did you keep the pre-boil wort simmering at 140 or so overnight?

After doing some more research, it would seem that keeping the overnight mash above 130 might be better than letting pre-boil wort cool down.

I have not tried it yet, but I bet I can keep the temp above 130 in my insulated mash tun overnight - even more so if I wrapped it in a blanket and/or placed my heating pad on or under it...

I do full volume mash overnight, I lose 10 degrees in 12 hrs. I wrap my ss mash tun we three wraps of reflectix, the cover, wrap with four comforters. This is in a 63 deg basement. My beer has only improved since doing this

 

[Dgallo]

I do full volume mash overnight, I lose 10 degrees in 12 hrs. I wrap my ss mash tun we three wraps of reflectix, the cover, wrap with four comforters. This is in a 63 deg basement. My beer has only improved since doing this

I would think there is something else that you have improved on that improved the quality of your beer. Most studies show that after 60 minutes at temps no measurable(additional) simple sugars or complex sugars can be extracted. Not saying your beer hasn’t got better, because I’m sure it has but I lean to you improving somewhere else as well

 

[milldoggy]

I would think there is something else that you have improved on that improved the quality of your beer. Most studies show that after 60 minutes at temps no measurable(additional) simple sugars or complex sugars can be extracted. Not saying your beer hasn’t got better, because I’m sure it has but I lean to you improving somewhere else as well

To be honest, I think the full volume has help. I was using a Herms and feel I was oversparging and letting the ph go too low.

 

[JohnConnor]

Citra and mosaic, both dry hops were split 1/2 and 1/2 for both the control and experimental

I'd say I've had more luck seeing biotransformation in "old school" hops. Chinook can get very lime-y. I've had amarillo/simcoe go from grapefruity pine to straight lemon aide.

 

[Dgallo]

I'd say I've had more luck seeing biotransformation in "old school" hops. Chinook can get very lime-y. I've had amarillo/simcoe go from grapefruity pine to straight lemon aide.

Never tried it with those hops. There was a difference in the two beers, no doubt, however my self and those in the club who tried the two blindly did not think it elevated hop flavor or aroma, we felt it simply made it different. With that being said I’m sure the new complexity of flavor and purposeful hopping combinations can create a unique flavor that makes a solid beer that could not be replicated without biotranformation hopping.

 

[leesmith]

Never tried it with those hops. There was a difference in the two beers, no doubt, however my self and those in the club who tried the two blindly did not think it elevated hop flavor or aroma, we felt it simply made it different. With that being said I’m sure the new complexity of flavor and purposeful hopping combinations can create a unique flavor that makes a solid beer that could not be replicated without biotranformation hopping.

How about early dry hopping instead of biostransformation until the research is conclusive?

 

[JohnConnor]

Never tried it with those hops. There was a difference in the two beers, no doubt, however my self and those in the club who tried the two blindly did not think it elevated hop flavor or aroma, we felt it simply made it different. With that being said I’m sure the new complexity of flavor and purposeful hopping combinations can create a unique flavor that makes a solid beer that could not be replicated without biotranformation hopping.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. It's purely a different flavor. There is no amping of flavor/aroma IMO.

 

[Dgallo]

How about early dry hopping instead of biostransformation until the research is conclusive?

I could get behind it. I would be comfortable calling fermentation hopping as well since “early” is relative term

 

[ttuato]

I’m a believer of the biotransformation of hop flavors, However I do not believe it elevates an aroma or flavor, just makes it different.

I did an experiment last August where I brewed the same ipa. Both were ddh with 2 - 2 oz additions. The control was dry hopped at day 5 and day 2 before kegging. The experimental was dry hopped on day 2 of fermentation(the biotransformation addition) and again 2 days from keg. My and those who tried it anecdotal perception of the beers were that did taste and smell different, not overwhelmingly but different. We were ,however, unable to determine if the biotransformation made the beer any better. We concluded that it has the potential to cause a different flavor and aroma in the beer, which may or may not benefit the overall perception of a beer.

I too am a believer in biotransformation but "importance" of my focus on this as a brewer of NEIPAs is waning. Keep in mind that the primary research (Takoi) focuses on "biotransformation" of geraniol/linalool converting to beta-citronellol supposedly by yeast.....

• It comes from whirlpool hops not dry hops ---- Suggested reading: Daniel Sharp's PhD dissertation: https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/concern/graduate_thesis_or_dissertations/g732df611
  • Chapter 6: Contributions of select hopping regimes to the terpenoid content and hop aroma profile of ale and lager beers":
    • "Interestingly though, the Simcoe kettle hopped treatment and the Simcoe dry-hopped treatment had similar concentrations of geraniol (Table 30), yet the kettle hop treatment resulted in a higher concentration of β-citronellol. Furthermore, the dry-hop treatment had the lowest level of β-citronellol, suggestingthat isomerization of geraniol into β-citronellol may have occurred during primary fermentation and not during dry-hopping or subsequent conditioning of the beers. This is in contrast to work by Takoi et. al 201459,146, which showed an increase in β- citronellol concentrations post primary fermentation during maturation as well as during primary fermentation. These differences suggest that the dry-hopping conditions used in this study (e.g. timing of dry-hop additions, conditioning temperatures, and yeast contact time) were not conducive for the biotransformation of geraniol into β-citronellol by yeast.

Based on the above and other anecdotal / exbeeriments / another research paper (I forgot which one), I stopped doing a "krausen dry hop" hoping for the magical biotransformation to occur and focused on loading whirlpool hops (1oz/gal) with geraniol, linalool, and β-citronellol (Simcoe, Citra, Bravo). Have there been any appreciable differences in my beer....maybe something subtle, BUT less complicated brewing process so I am game. My process now is to soft crash to 58 after diacetyl rest and add dry hops for 24hr, cold crash and transfer to serving keg.

• Later I happened upon this study by Grant Ruehele of New Belgium - check out slide 12. MIND BLOWN!!!! http://www.ibdlearningzone.org.uk/article/show/pdf/1623/
  • Dry hops added to filtered mature beer - aka NO YEAST....guess what happened:
  • Geraniol concentration went down..... β-citronellol concentration went up..... just like Takoi, Sharp, Praet demonstrated
  • My conclusion is that the primary "target" of biotransformation in NEIPA: β-citronellol is misplaced. This compound occurs naturally in hops and increases in finished beer as a result of a CHEMICAL reaction not biotransformation.

Is my interest in biotransformation research gone? No
Do I still believe in biotransformation? Absolutely - the research is irrefutable that biotransformation does occur (This is the global warming discussion of brewing.)
Moving forward how will I incorporate biotransformation into my brewing ---- THIOLS for the Win! This is the next frontier in brewing research. Oil concentrations don't matter!


(I am gonna tag @Northern_Brewer to make sure he sees this since he is a chemistry research nerd like me and would love to get his thoughts)

 

[ttuato]

No comments after almost six days on the most popular thread on HBT, now I feel like crap - I broke tHread... please ignore my previous post and continue on with the good discussion on @Braufessor EXCELLENT NEIPA recipe

 

[Braufessor]

No comments after almost six days on the most popular thread on HBT, now I feel like crap - I broke tHread... please ignore my previous post and continue on with the good discussion on @Braufessor EXCELLENT NEIPA recipe

Ha....."broke the thread" - that is funny.

I had not even seen your last post..... seems like I get notifications here and there in regard to new posts. I will have to check it out - it looks like some interesting info.

 

[tld6008]

No comments after almost six days on the most popular thread on HBT, now I feel like crap - I broke tHread... please ignore my previous post and continue on with the good discussion on @Braufessor EXCELLENT NEIPA recipe

You can't break this thread, but I must admit your discussion is too technical for me.