New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[TxBigHops]

If you want this typical neipa hazy-ness..

Haze has NOTHING to do with dry hopping.

 

[Hannabrew]

I knnow its not unheard of but it’s not going to give you that true distinctive fruity flavor. It will give you hop flavor absolutely but not that signature flavor the specific variety of hop will provide. You said it your self that have you have to condition longer when your in that range of ozes. If you tone it back to in the 10 range you will let the true flavor out.

Whoever mention yeast health hit the nail on the head. A fast Healthy fermentation in the temp range you choose (me I drive from 68-76 with the strain I use) give the a clean fruitforward ester profile and gives the remaining yeast time to clean up. Ever since realizing this my beers improved leaps and bounds. It allows the hops to shine all while the Esters help to round out the aroma and flavor

Don't disagree with any if this. I do think ABV plays into it too though. If you're in the 8% range you need those extra few ozs.

 

[thehaze]

I dont know if this info has been discussed. But i talked to the owner and head brewer of an award winning, very popular, good brewery, in the US. Cant say who, but he told me personally that in his NEIPAs (and hes done collabs all over the country) there are never 60 min hops, rarely whirlpools and its most of the time ONLY dry hopping.

He said that i should try at most 1 oz whirlpool and 400-500g dry hopping in 2 stages.

That sounds really interesting. Have you tried brewing this way? What were the results? No water treatment talk at all?

 

[CTS]

How is everyone adding the 2nd dry hop with regards to oxygen exposure?

 

[mjjunior10]

How is everyone adding the 2nd dry hop with regards to oxygen exposure?

You can do it into the keg either previously carb or during it..

 

[Dgallo]

How is everyone adding the 2nd dry hop with regards to oxygen exposure?

As long as you aren’t one of those people who constantly open your air lock to smell the fermentation you shoud have a pretty decent co2 cover in your fermenter. If youre worried you could always purge the fermenter with more co2 right before you put in that dry hop. Now there is air trapped in the pellets so your beer will absorb some o2 and obviously that increases as you up the amount of hops added after primary is complete.

 

[tld6008]

I know what you meant. Im just the messenger. I was just lucky enough to get the chance to talk to him. This is what he told me and i have been a huge fan of his neipas. They’re all over 4+ on untappd and i asked what was the secret. He said: no boil hops, no whirlpool but he sometimes uses 1 oz for 5 gal in whirlpool (approx down sizing from his system) and dont be afraid to go for 4-500g for 5 gal in dry hopping, 1 batch during fermentation and 1 after.

And flaked oats and flaked wheat is his go to with pale 2 row and london ale 3. I was surprise how the grain bill and yeast was standard but the hopping procedure was different.

I wish i could name the brewery but he kind of made me promise and he only told me because we have a history.

So the messenger hasn't actually brewed this batch?

 

[popquizkid]

How is everyone adding the 2nd dry hop with regards to oxygen exposure?

I have switched my second dry hop to the keg and use a clear beer floating pickup. I add priming solution to the primary 30 or so minutes before transfer. Transfer the beer into a purged keg with the dry hops. Leave at room temp for 5 days and then into the kegerator.

The advantage of the the priming before transfer is the yeast are active and should help scavenge oxygen pickup from the transfer and the dry hops. With this method I have been able to drink these beers 3 months after kegging and they are still delicious.

 

[Hannabrew]

I put Braufessor's philosophy to the test and compared a DDH NEIPA vs a single DH batch (same amount of hops)...nobody could tell the difference.

 

[Dgallo]

I put Braufessor's philosophy to the test and compared a DDH NEIPA vs a single DH batch (same amount of hops)...nobody could tell the difference.

How’d you do the dry hopping in your control and experiment group? How long were the dry hops in for and On what days were the two stages from the time of kegging. I did the same experiment actually. Brought it to the HB club for those to judge it. I too found that most people couldn’t tell the difference but the die hard IPA guys in the group actually could tell the difference. And all 6 of them correctly picked the DDH beer. Coincidence maybe

 

[Andre3000]

How’d you do the dry hopping in your control and experiment group? How long were the dry hops in for and On what days were the two stages from the time of kegging. I did the same experiment actually. Brought it to the HB club for those to judge it. I too found that most people couldn’t tell the difference but the die hard IPA guys in the group actually could tell the difference. And all 6 of them correctly picked the DDH beer. Coincidence maybe

What is the purported difference? I hear a lot on this topic and often wonder if I should bother testing it myself.

 

[kevink]

As long as you aren’t one of those people who constantly open your air lock to smell the fermentation you shoud have a pretty decent co2 cover in your fermenter.

The O2 that enters when the lid is removed does not stay near the top of the headspace and the CO2 does not stay near the beer when the lid is put back on the fermenter. CO2 is slightly more dense than O2, but the gasses mix equally once the lid is put back on and O2 will come in contact with the beer.

 

[Dgallo]

The O2 that enters when the lid is removed does not stay near the top of the headspace and the CO2 does not stay near the beer when the lid is put back on the fermenter. CO2 is slightly more dense than O2, but the gasses mix equally once the lid is put back on and O2 will come in contact with the beer.

If you’re using bucket then yes. But purge your fermenter again after with co2 to force any O2 out and you should be fine

 

[kevink]

Oh, it's definitely true. No doubt about it.

 

[kevink]

If you’re using bucket then yes. But purge your fermenter again after with co2 to force any O2 out and you should be fine

It doesn't really matter what kind of fermenter you're using. I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything. This is just something that I feel is extremely important and overlooked. If you open a fermenter, whether it's a conical with a 1.5" port or a bucket, O2 is getting in and it will reach the beer after you seal it back up. Purging after helps, but the best method is to blast CO2 in through a dedicated port while hops are added then purge again after it's sealed back up. This would be a pain to do with a bucket unless you added a CO2 port and a big dry hop hole to the lid. It can be done, but anyone going to these lengths is probably not fermenting in buckets anyway.

 

[Hannabrew]

The "blanket of CO2" theory is one of the biggest misconceptions in homebrewing IMO.

That said, if fermentation is still fairly active and you are using a blowoff, I'm usually not too concerned about opening the lid and adding hops quickly as the active fermentation will purge the headspace fairly quickly.

How’d you do the dry hopping in your control and experiment group? How long were the dry hops in for and On what days were the two stages from the time of kegging. I did the same experiment actually. Brought it to the HB club for those to judge it. I too found that most people couldn’t tell the difference but the die hard IPA guys in the group actually could tell the difference. And all 6 of them correctly picked the DDH beer. Coincidence maybe

I added both initial DH rounds loose with about 10 points left. Left them in for ~48 hours and spunded to fermentation purged kegs (no cold crash). For the DDH batch, I quickly added the loose hops to the keg just prior to racking while applying 1 PSI to the gas in (to keep positive pressure out).

 

[kevink]

The "blanket of CO2" theory is one of the biggest misconceptions in homebrewing IMO.

I know. I can't stand the B word.

 

[TheBrewGoose]

So the messenger hasn't actually brewed this batch?

I just talked to him a few days ago and i have a batch fermenting with his instructions.

 

[TheBrewGoose]

Haze has NOTHING to do with dry hopping.

This brewer i talked to also said that huge dryhopping is THE reason for haze.

 

[TxBigHops]

This brewer i talked to also said that huge dryhopping is THE reason for haze.

Then your brewer doesn't know what he's talking about, or he's pulling your chain. The research is out there. I believe some of it has been linked in this thread. The distinctive NEIPA look and mouthfeel comes from the proteins in wheat and flaked grains. This is not even argued against by any legitimate source that I'm aware of. But again, don't take my word for it. It's out there and easy to find. The heavy late hop additions and dry hop are for flavor and aroma. Not for the haze.

 

[TxBigHops]

This brewer i talked to also said that huge dryhopping is THE reason for haze.

Do you like the look of this? There's only 8 ounces of a single dry hop in this, a 10 gallon batch. Not even a little bit excessive. I've used just as much to dry hop a West Coast IPA with zero haze.

 

[Braufessor]

i just did a split batch neipa, half with citra and half with mosaic. they are absolutely the bomb! has anyone used any hops that have as wonderful of a flavor as citra, mosaic and galaxy? seems like they still rule for neipa, but i'd like to try some other ones that are in the same ballpark or close. i thought a denali one could be fun. boatloads of pineapple. eureka is good but might be a little much on its own. simcoe seems bland now to me. amarillo has a weird fruity character i'm not a fan of in huge amounts.

In my experience, nothing beats Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic.

However, I do really like using Centennial/Simcoe/Amarillo -that is a nice combo of some of the older hops. Centennial/Cascade/Amarillo too.

Some of the blends are quite good too - Falconers Flight especially.

 

[Hannabrew]

Yeah I just did one with FF...can't wait to see how that turns out.

 

[Dgallo]

Do you like the look of this? There's only 8 ounces of a single dry hop in this, a 10 gallon batch. Not even a little bit excessive. I've used just as much to dry hop a West Coast IPA with zero haze. View attachment 601759

With you there brother

 

[Dgallo]

What is the purported difference? I hear a lot on this topic and often wonder if I should bother testing it myself.

So for those who did perceive the difference, they claimed it was a slightly more intense in aroma and flavor. but the most notable thing they all seemed to claim is that it came off a cleaner distinctive mosaic aroma and flavor.

 

[Dgallo]

It doesn't really matter what kind of fermenter you're using. I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything. This is just something that I feel is extremely important and overlooked. If you open a fermenter, whether it's a conical with a 1.5" port or a bucket, O2 is getting in and it will reach the beer after you seal it back up. Purging after helps, but the best method is to blast CO2 in through a dedicated port while hops are added then purge again after it's sealed back up. This would be a pain to do with a bucket unless you added a CO2 port and a big dry hop hole to the lid. It can be done, but anyone going to these lengths is probably not fermenting in buckets anyway.

All good brother. I’m fine with have a civilized disagreement. I think of it strictly from a chemistry perspective. Gases can only be absorbed into liquids from agitation and/or pressure. And your correct co2 is only slightly more dense the oxygen but it is more dense so it will drop to the bottom. So as long as you are purging that fermenter with co2 and not splashing, the O2 should exit without being absorbed. Since kegging and purging my fermenters after dryhopping I haven’t had any oxidation issues. Not claiming it’s the only way but I’m successful with it

 

[stickyfinger]

Then your brewer doesn't know what he's talking about, or he's pulling your chain. The research is out there. I believe some of it has been linked in this thread. The distinctive NEIPA look and mouthfeel comes from the proteins in wheat and flaked grains. This is not even argued against by any legitimate source that I'm aware of. But again, don't take my word for it. It's out there and easy to find. The heavy late hop additions and dry hop are for flavor and aroma. Not for the haze.

If my memory isn't failing me, I believe the podcast recently linked in this thread with John Paul Maye from Hopsteiner indicated that 10-15% of the haze in NEIPA is from hop compounds. The proteins account for the bulk of the rest I assume (minus a small amount of haze due to some yeast.)

yes, the haze allows the nonpolar hop compounds to stay in suspension (much more so than the WC IPAs they looked at) but the haze is then reinforced (by 10-15%) by the large amounts of hops added to NEIPAs.

Many of us seem to have gotten very hazy NEIPA without adding any flaked grains or adjuncts as well. We no doubt have much more yeast than the beers Hopsteiner analyzed, but maybe the proteins in an all-malt grist are adequate to produce beers that are not readily distinguishable from high adjunct grists? It would be interesting to see what the protein concentration is in an NEIPA with pale malt only vs one with like 20-30% flaked adjuncts.

EDIT: I just listened to the meaty part of that podcast again and he estimated the contribution to haze from nonpolar hop compounds to be about 10-15%

 

[Braufessor]

I put Braufessor's philosophy to the test and compared a DDH NEIPA vs a single DH batch (same amount of hops)...nobody could tell the difference.

I have tried on occasion (here and there) the DDH again...... personally, still not finding it to really be worth it. I have continued to stick with 6 ounces in the whirlpool once temps drop significantly and 6 ounces of Dry hop on day 2. I like the results and I personally like getting all those hops in during fermentation...... I think it helps alleviate problems with oxygen and also alleviates any potential problems of introducing dry hops later which can kick off diacetyl production that sometimes shows up in beers like this.

I am not doubting that some people might be able to tell the difference..... I just don't think the difference is significant enough or provides a big enough improvement for me to worry about it.

 

[Braufessor]

Oh..... that looks great.

With you there brother
View attachment 601768

 

[stickyfinger]

I have tried on occasion (here and there) the DDH again...... personally, still not finding it to really be worth it. I have continued to stick with 6 ounces in the whirlpool once temps drop significantly and 6 ounces of Dry hop on day 2. I like the results and I personally like getting all those hops in during fermentation...... I think it helps alleviate problems with oxygen and also alleviates any potential problems of introducing dry hops later which can kick off diacetyl production that sometimes shows up in beers like this.

I am not doubting that some people might be able to tell the difference..... I just don't think the difference is significant enough or provides a big enough improvement for me to worry about it.

i'm pretty sure one way a DDH would result in a flavor difference would be if you added your first charge at the usual early part of fermentation and then waited until the beer is basically finished to add another charge 24 hrs before racking. cold crash the beer after the last addition and then rack to keg. i did that once and the flavor of the hops seemed to be pretty different to me compared with the beers when i add them earlier.