Ok, see that idea. A more fundamental question is how do you keep the finished beer from seeing air during the transfer. Probably been answered 100 times here...how about 101?
And, you all do oxygenate the wort after boiling right?
New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
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And, you all do oxygenate the wort after boiling right?
VT_jlee
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After the keg is purged (filled with sanitizer then pushed out) I hook up the racking cane to the "OUT" post of the keg and then push the finished beer from the carboy into the keg. I pull the pressure relief so the CO2 can escape as the beer fills the keg.
And yes, I do oxygenate my wort prior to pitching the yeast.
Why isn't the beer carbonated??
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Maybe it's just the picture not reflecting what you're seeing, but that does not look bad at all. Just looks more orange. I think when there is more haze material in suspension it stops more light and makes it look lighter in color. If some of that drops out it goes darker. My early NEIPAs were turning true brown, which was not great. But that orange I wouldn't complain much about (personal opinion)
Ahh.gotcha! I can set that up. Thanks!
Good question. I may have a leak on the keg this time. However, this issue happens regardless.
Humm, there's an extremely sharp bitter/repulsive taste right on the tip of the toung with a diacetyl follow up, yum. Other's mentioned acetaldehyde. But I stopped dumping everything from the kettel to the fermenter and that flavor I think, has gone away.
None of the Citra nor Mosaic character, which should be present. It was lighter before, I took a picture in a frosted glass, bad idea.
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stickyfinger
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Regarding the diacetyl issue, you could try adding the dry hops after 24 hours if you think it won't clog up your blowoff setup, etc. When I ask about testing for diacetyl precursors, you have to do more than just take a sample and taste it for diacetyl. you have to take a sample, put some saran wrap onto it and then hold it at about 170F for 20 minutes. let it cool down some, then chill it in a small water bath. then, smell and taste it. if you can then detect diacetyl, you know you have diacetyl precursors, and it is risky to keg it at that point (though, sometimes they turn to diacetyl with precursors and sometimes not.) the only time you can keg with confidence is if you don't detect any diacetyl after doing this "diacetyl force test."
i'd also let the carboy rest longer at room temperature. you have to give the precursors time to spontaneously oxidize to diacetyl so that the yeast can rid the beer of it. I'd let it go 2 weeks next time and dry hop at 24 hours if you can. at least, let it go 2 weeks. you aren't going to get off flavors in two weeks. also, make sure you keep the beer warm the entire time so the precursors oxidize more easily and the yeast stay around to clean it up. keep it at 68-72.
on thing people have mentioned about kegging into a fully purged keg is to get even more air out of the keg, you can fill it with star san, keep the fill line connected and then invert the keg upside down with your finger on the male gas in post threads on the keg. Then, tilt it back right side up slowly making sure to let any air that floated to the top come back up and go out the gas in connection. i do that a couple of extra times just to get as much air out as i can. then, i put in the gas-in dip tube and put on the out QD post while the star san runs out down the sides. i keep it in a small bucket to reduce the mess.
i'd also let the carboy rest longer at room temperature. you have to give the precursors time to spontaneously oxidize to diacetyl so that the yeast can rid the beer of it. I'd let it go 2 weeks next time and dry hop at 24 hours if you can. at least, let it go 2 weeks. you aren't going to get off flavors in two weeks. also, make sure you keep the beer warm the entire time so the precursors oxidize more easily and the yeast stay around to clean it up. keep it at 68-72.
on thing people have mentioned about kegging into a fully purged keg is to get even more air out of the keg, you can fill it with star san, keep the fill line connected and then invert the keg upside down with your finger on the male gas in post threads on the keg. Then, tilt it back right side up slowly making sure to let any air that floated to the top come back up and go out the gas in connection. i do that a couple of extra times just to get as much air out as i can. then, i put in the gas-in dip tube and put on the out QD post while the star san runs out down the sides. i keep it in a small bucket to reduce the mess.
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
Today I poured a NEIPA clone that was kegged six weeks ago. The permanent chill haze has kept this beer as cloudy as it was the first day it went into the refrigerator. It was brewed with 91% Pale Malt and 9% Torrified Wheat and fermented using White Labs - English Ale Yeast WLP002.
To me the key brewing process, for creating the chill haze, was to add dry hops three days after pitching the yeast and letting them soak for seven days.
To me the key brewing process, for creating the chill haze, was to add dry hops three days after pitching the yeast and letting them soak for seven days.
IMO his biggest problem regarding oxidation is that he's using an plastic bucket instead of a carboy which is more permeable by O2. I can appreciate that other styles come out fine that way. But, other styles can also be bottled without going south.
I think the biggest difference with this style is the large amount of polyphenols that are created as a result of the fermentation dry hop. From what I gather, polyphenol oxidation is the reason why fruits turn brown and it may be the reason why we have issues with these beers being so prone to oxidation:
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/45/8/1150.full
@PianoMan, don't give up on the style. Try fermenting in a carboy and let it go 14+ days. I bet you will have it nailed.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
yeah, i don't know if a bucket is a good idea. i've never used one.
i have also been wondering if the huge amount of hops in suspensions somehow impede diacetyl precursors from oxidizing to diacetyl as easily as well, complicating the diacetyl issues that some of us have faced.
OP
OP
I don’t ..... some set ups vary though, and it might be necessary for some. If you have to, I would wait till day 12 to do it, personally. Especially with English yeasts. They can be a real problem with diacetyl if they don’t finish out and have time to clean up. Sometimes even a few degree drop will knock them out. So, personally, if I had to cold crash, I would not do it until day 12 and then keg on day 14.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
absolutely! i never really had problems with diacetyl, but then once i started doing a lot of NEIPAs, I started getting it here and there. I think it was related to not letting the beer sit long enough before kegging. I also have a theory it is related to oxygen getting in during the cold crash, but I am not too sure about that at all. I tried to mitigate that by using a piece of copper wire wrapped around the lip of the carboy that i attach rubber bands onto to hold down my bung very tightly while cold crashing. I haven't had the guts to try to rack warm for a long time. I always had clogging. maybe i will be better off now that i use an autosiphon filter. the hops on top never seem to drop completely for me unless i crash.
I've read through every post since my last comment and want to thank the contributors. This forum is top notch for education and suggestions even of they're repetitive.
You all got me thinking. 1) I need off flavor education. 2) Completely minimize air contact even if it seems trivial, using above suggestions. 3) Extend fermentation time. When doing west coast IPAs I ferment for about 17 days, transfer to secondly for another 5 then bottle. Beer saw alot of air yet these came out awesome even using 16oz hops for 5gal. Flavor would last maybe 5 weeks tops. 4) I'm still not convinced on the bucket vs glass O2 penetration. There's so much positive pressure why doesn't the co2 permeate out? However, if all else fails I'll try glass. 5) I read through the MadFermentaitionalist blog and he doesn't cold crash niether. So I'll skip that step. I never cold crashed doing WCIPAs. 6) Continue to oxygenate wort, even tho this seems counter-intuitive. 7) Immediately after kegging do a diacetyl sample test by heating up as suggested. 8) I always use RO and mineralize. Won't touch that.
Sorry I don't have anything to offer back the forum, I feel so selfish, but you all have helped mitigate the helpless.
You all got me thinking. 1) I need off flavor education. 2) Completely minimize air contact even if it seems trivial, using above suggestions. 3) Extend fermentation time. When doing west coast IPAs I ferment for about 17 days, transfer to secondly for another 5 then bottle. Beer saw alot of air yet these came out awesome even using 16oz hops for 5gal. Flavor would last maybe 5 weeks tops. 4) I'm still not convinced on the bucket vs glass O2 penetration. There's so much positive pressure why doesn't the co2 permeate out? However, if all else fails I'll try glass. 5) I read through the MadFermentaitionalist blog and he doesn't cold crash niether. So I'll skip that step. I never cold crashed doing WCIPAs. 6) Continue to oxygenate wort, even tho this seems counter-intuitive. 7) Immediately after kegging do a diacetyl sample test by heating up as suggested. 8) I always use RO and mineralize. Won't touch that.
Sorry I don't have anything to offer back the forum, I feel so selfish, but you all have helped mitigate the helpless.
@PianoMan Ive got to say that you are overlooking this very important part of the finished beer, carbonation. You are saying that after X amount of days in the keg it becomes oxidized or some how forms diacytel even after a relatively decent process to get the beer to the glass.
Beer foam and the carbonation play a key role to how we taste the beer, it also is responsible for delivering the aromatics from the glass. Without adequate foam on the beer from adequate carbonation the oils in the beer are not expressed best, the mouthfeel is dull and the true final flavor is not going to be delivered.
Id suggest that the beer be carbonated correctly and re serve the beer into a fresh clean glass and take another assessment of the beer. Just my advice.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
stick it out, man. diacetyl and oxidation can be *******, especially diacetyl. on the diacetyl test, please do it BEFORE kegging. Then, you know whether you can rack to keg or need to let it rest and maybe stir up the yeast for a few more days.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
i don't think you need foam per se. however, you are absolutely correct that hop character will be less without carbonation.
What are the characteristics of diacetyl?
Carbonation = foam formation. Its super importany to the outcome.
Not all styles need it but this one I say should have a consistent head/foam to make the beer.
https://www.craftbeer.com/craft-beer-muses/the-science-behind-beer-foam
@Pratty I know exactly what your saying. At firsr I'd dump once the discovery. Later I thought maybe it'll work it's way out. Diacetyl seems to get worse with time, or carbonation just brings it to your face more efficiently.
Diacetyl check BEFORE kegging...that does make more sense and possible without beer/air exposure.
Diacetyl check BEFORE kegging...that does make more sense and possible without beer/air exposure.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I assume you mean the flavor/aroma character. Some say butterscotch. I'd say that is pretty accurate in my perception. Diacetyl is the flavoring component in all microwave popcorn. In fact, there was a large class action lawsuit for workers in microwave popcorn factories, as they developed some type of cancer I think. Diacetyl at higher levels (than beer or eating microwave popcorn once in awhile) can be a carcinogen. Anyway, it is buttery, butterscotchy (in beer perhaps b/c of the caramel/malty combination with butter), and it can make a beer same thicker/fuller and silkier. It makes a really hoppy beer unpalatable to me. It can make a malty beer taste pretty good if it is not at too high of levels. I'd say that it is similar to using a super large amount of maybe C60 in a beer so that it comes across as super super caramelly. However, it is even more butterscotchy.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
It's a subtle point, but you can have carbonation without a lot of head retention if the beer cannot sustain the bubbles. There are proteins required to create the foam. An example is a sour beer. Many are very very carbonated but have almost no head. Another is a beer with any oils in it, such as from nuts, chocolate or other fatty ingredients. I have created beers that are fairly carbonated but with little head retention by not adding any hops during the boil. I soon realized that by adding even a small amount of hops to the boil you can dramatically increase head retention. Your point about carbonation and perception of aromas and perhaps flavor is well-taken though.
You don't have to move to glass. I would actually recommend better bottle. They're cheaper and much safer while also less permeable to O2 than the plastic buckets.
If you check out this chart, your bucket (HDPE) is 10 times more O2 permeable than a Better Bottle (PET).
http://www.evergreen-packaging.com/en/shownews.asp?id=70
edit: you don't have to go with Better Bottle so long as it's PET. I'm a fan of the Big Mouth Bubbler. The wide opening makes it easy to do dry hop additions or anything else you want to put in there. They're also easy to clean.
I am lost trying to imagine what you are doing with copper wire and rubber bands.
This is my thought on preventing O2 getting in during cold crashing. When I ferment I always use a 1/2" hose connected to the inner opening of single air lock (cap and inner cup removed) My hose is at least 6 ft long and ends up in a heavy flower vase with starsan. All this is in a kegerator. Before starting the cold crash the hose is full of co2 from fermentation off-gassing and since I only crash to get the hops to drop I don't go below 50 degrees so when the hops have dropped there is a column of starsan sucked partway up into the hose from the vase from the vacuum created by the shrinking beer volume in the carboy, no o2 in the fermentor yet. When I pull the hose out of the starsan the fluid runs up the hose until the pressures are equalized. I then pull the airlock from the bung and cover with foil. Once removed from kegerator I have to transfer to keg before the beer warms up as the hops will start to rise again. If I crash to lower temps the starsan will run up into the carboy when the lower end of the hose is removed from the vase due to the greater pressure differential. This might sound confusing but it is very simple.
I've seen the PET vs HDPE test. But haven't seen a partial pressure test. How much does the weight of the wort and CO2 partial pressure affect the permeability of O2?
**** it..I'll just buy one of these..
**** it..I'll just buy one of these..
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
sorry. i forgot i posted a thread about it:
Excellent way to hold on stoppers, airlocks, blowoff setups
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...on-stoppers,-airlocks,-blowoff-setups.636587/
I can honestly disagree with this statement. I use plastic Ale Pails and have for 8 years, never had an issue with oxidation.
Like I said, I don't disagree that a bucket is perfectly fine for most styles. @PianoMan can attest to that himself. He never had an issue until he started brewing NE IPA's. There are plenty of folks who have been bottling for years and never had a problem with oxidation either until they tried to bottle a NE IPA.
This style is different. It's more prone to oxidation. With that, there are plenty of variables in play as well such as process, grain bill and yeast. Also consider that his threshold to detect oxidation may be lower than yours.
Someone did a great experiment a few pages back where they split a batch between a keg and bottles. I was amazed at those results so I held on to that pic -
All I'm saying is that he has been struggling with oxidation specifically in NE IPA's. At this point, he's trying to eliminate any possible source of O2 in his setup. If it was me, a $25 stab at it would be a no-brainer. It may or may not eliminate his issue but the worst case scenario is that he acquires an extra FV.
I'm thinking about building a reinforced poly box using 1in thick sheets epoxied together, hook up a vacuum pump, and add some gloves to do transfer. My other thought was a CO2 pressurized walk in closet with an air mask, but one slip and out..end..kaput.
doogie
Well-Known Member
Wow, that is a great photo. I made 5 gallons that looked like the one on the right. Everything was looking good until I went to transfer into my keg. I set up my auto-siphon and started doing other things while it transferred. I came back downstairs 5 minutes later and heard a funny noise (the sound of my beer being ruined) the hops had slowed the flow into the siphon (but not stopped), but the pull of the siphon was so great that it was pulling air from the auto part of the siphon and into the beer flow, very effectively oxidizing the entire batch. I stopped the flow and cleared the siphon, but the damage was done. It only took a day or two before it looked like the glass on the right. I guess this is good for my septic tank.
I made this the trigger to get an Anvil 7.5 gal SS fermenter and my first batch through it was another NEIPA. It has been on tap for 4 weeks and is just starting to show the first signs of oxidation. This batch I transferred normally and immediately purged the headspace a half dozen times. The only reason there is any left is due to the stupid cold I got a week ago. I think as long as I am careful not to do anything stupid I think this is good enough for me.
I made this the trigger to get an Anvil 7.5 gal SS fermenter and my first batch through it was another NEIPA. It has been on tap for 4 weeks and is just starting to show the first signs of oxidation. This batch I transferred normally and immediately purged the headspace a half dozen times. The only reason there is any left is due to the stupid cold I got a week ago. I think as long as I am careful not to do anything stupid I think this is good enough for me.
ryanm8
Well-Known Member
I use a plastic fermenter and bottle my NEIPA's. Since I started purging the headspace with CO2, they have held up fine. I've went 4-6 weeks with no noticeable change in color. They are all gone by that point so I haven't went longer.
Before purging with CO2 they would turn dark, but not in 4 days. Sounds like something else is going on there. Maybe has something to do with the grains used?
Before purging with CO2 they would turn dark, but not in 4 days. Sounds like something else is going on there. Maybe has something to do with the grains used?
SailorJerry
Well-Known Member
While we've only done two NEIPA's, both of ours were fermented in buckets, transferred into the keg, with the lid off, using an auto-siphon out of fermentation bucket. Both pushed 5 weeks, maybe 6 on the first one (fall harvest, wasn't home to drink it) without any color changes. Maybe dumb luck? That's what I'll chalk it up to.
