New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[popquizkid]

Thanks for getting back on topic. These guys and there LoDo geesh, even if that is a trend scientifically proven or not do we really think that any of the breweries were trying to emulate with these beers do this process? And isn't what this thread about trying to emulate the NEIPA. Maybe it's another way of keeping o2 out of the beer to keep it fresh, ok I get that but again do we really thinks treehouse uses this method, i'd say no, and I'm guessing if Nate would actually give up his secrets their prob not as groundbreaking as we think and I feel Like we're as a forum pretty onto what these guys are doing i.e. Small bittering charge, huge whirlpool and dry hop additions and the water is prob up for debate as to whether it's higher chloride or sulfate or in the middle of both. So ok rant over. Back on topic. Sorry

I agree that they are probably not doing anything that odd. But I think limiting oxidation is not groundbreaking in the least to professional brewers. John Kimmich from Alchemist has talked a lot about minimizing dissolved oxygen in his beers and how important it is.

There are a lot of things to dial in in your process and outside of water I think oxidation is a huge factor in your final product. If you want to make a great NEIPA or any IPA for that matter I would take a serious look at it personally.

Commercial breweries are definitely not following the LODO procedures people are mentioning in this thread as they were specifically created for home brewers to cheaply address challenges that don't exist at a commercial brewery -- but that is outside of the scope of this thread.

 

[HOPME]

My second version of this recipe. Went with the original Citra, Mosaic and Galaxy hop combo and 1318 for yeast. @HOPME this one finished up at 1.015. I made a couple of mistakes during all of the transferring on this one and I believe I lost a bunch of aroma. I'm currently working out a system for a closed transfer from my spigot-less Fermonsters to a keg, once I've got that working I'd like to give this another shot. Very tasty beer, the wife called it her favorite IPA and she isn't a big IPA drinker, so the beer must be doing something right.

Thanks, I figured this might finish in the .14-.16 range. Was jut curious what other people were getting. First time using this. Had her blow over night, wasn't expecting that with the OG of 1.062. Huge mess.

 

[leesmith]

so mrs moto and I just did our triangle test of high sulfate vs high chloride in our NEPA
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=597564&page=2

That's a good comparison. I've played with the ratios and found I like it leaning more towards sulfate.

One thing I don't understand is how it came that people assumed there was a higher chloride level compared to sulfates in these NEIPAs? A couple bloggers posted about it and it became part of the style. The Shaun Hill reference a while back on Reddit didn't seem to indicate he used more chloride than sulfate, just that he said to not forget the importance of chloride. And I haven't seen any other commercial brewers (those from Treehouse and Trilluim to name a couple) indicate in interviews or articles that they do use more chlorides than sulfates. There's a YouTube video of the two Grimm brewers going through a pilot batch and Joe Grimm talks about how sulfates accentuates the hops....that's all I know of.
Any others out there?

 

[Braufessor]

One thing I don't understand is how it came that people assumed there was a higher chloride level compared to sulfates in these NEIPAs? A couple bloggers posted about it and it became part of the style. The Shaun Hill reference a while back on Reddit didn't seem to indicate he used more chloride than sulfate, just that he said to not forget the importance of chloride. And I haven't seen any other commercial brewers (those from Treehouse and Trilluim to name a couple) indicate in interviews or articles that they do use more chlorides than sulfates. There's a YouTube video of the two Grimm brewers going through a pilot batch and Joe Grimm talks about how sulfates accentuates the hops....that's all I know of.
Any others out there?

I based it on some interviews I have listened too and also from personally visiting with several brewers who make "NE IPA's" - They lean toward chloride or use higher than "normal" chloride, and also shared info about other breweries they know that lean toward that direction as well.
I do agree though.... I don't think it is necessarily that all places are using high chloride/low sulfate. I know some do. But, I think many use something in that general 100-150 ppm of both.
Honestly though, as I posted a while back.... if Both numbers are between that 70-150ppm range in any direction - I just don't think there is a huge difference.

 

[leesmith]

I based it on some interviews I have listened too and also from personally visiting with several brewers who make "NE IPA's" - They lean toward chloride or use higher than "normal" chloride, and also shared info about other breweries they know that lean toward that direction as well.
I do agree though.... I don't think it is necessarily that all places are using high chloride/low sulfate. I know some do. But, I think many use something in that general 100-150 ppm of both.
Honestly though, as I posted a while back.... if Both numbers are between that 70-150ppm range in any direction - I just don't think there is a huge difference.

Do you mind naming a couple? Or posting some links to those interviews? I'm just curious.

For my tastes, I've tried the higher chloride level in not just hoppy beers but I've also tried it in a Dry stout (which I guess is also a bitter type of beer) that I've been working on over several brews. In both styles I find it gives a mineral taste/feel I just don't like compared to a ratio balanced towards sulfates or an equal ratio.

If I've had some of these beers from the breweries you speak about and liked them...then I know it's either my practices or a mental thing I'm just not getting around with my own beers.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

My second version of this recipe. Went with the original Citra, Mosaic and Galaxy hop combo and 1318 for yeast. @HOPME this one finished up at 1.015. I made a couple of mistakes during all of the transferring on this one and I believe I lost a bunch of aroma. I'm currently working out a system for a closed transfer from my spigot-less Fermonsters to a keg, once I've got that working I'd like to give this another shot. Very tasty beer, the wife called it her favorite IPA and she isn't a big IPA drinker, so the beer must be doing something right.

Not to be critical (or if I am, at least in a positive, constructive way), but that looks a bit too milky. Cloudy/hazy is one thing, and looks great in a beer. I think opaque/milky is not only out of place (though that is entirely my 100% subjective opinion), but also temporary - some of that has to just be suspended solids and not actually in solution, so my guess is that it will precipitate out in a few days.

But, the important thing is that if you (and anyone else reading this) like it that way: more power to you - if we wanted other people to tell us what our beer should look/taste like, we would just buy our beer!

BTW, the color is awesome though!

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Am I the only one here who doesn't care about chloride/sulfate ratios?
I checked with my town, they don't have the info on what our water contains (their water report is more concerned with other materials and not mineral content), so I have no idea what my starting point is (though it is slightly on the hard side).

Since I have no idea what my starting point is (and if you don't know what YOUR starting point is), any adjustments are made completely in the blind.
Sure, I could buy distilled water, but my town actually has good, clean-tasting drinking water that makes good beer, so why bother?

I am happy with the beer I produce, and if I feel a beer is lacking in anything, I tweak the recipe for next time.

Moral of the story, if you are reading this and are confused about all this talk of chloride ratios, or think "great, another thing I have to measure and calculate and worry about"...don't.
Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew, and don't worry about the water (as long as it doesn't taste/smell like chlorine). You can make a fine NEIPA without any water adjustments at all.

 

[Braufessor]

Am I the only one here who doesn't care about chloride/sulfate ratios?
I checked with my town, they don't have the info on what our water contains (their water report is more concerned with other materials and not mineral content), so I have no idea what my starting point is (though it is slightly on the hard side).

Since I have no idea what my starting point is (and if you don't know what YOUR starting point is), any adjustments are made completely in the blind.
Sure, I could buy distilled water, but my town actually has good, clean-tasting drinking water that makes good beer, so why bother?

I am happy with the beer I produce, and if I feel a beer is lacking in anything, I tweak the recipe for next time.

Moral of the story, if you are reading this and are confused about all this talk of chloride ratios, or think "great, another thing I have to measure and calculate and worry about"...don't.
Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew, and don't worry about the water (as long as it doesn't taste/smell like chlorine). You can make a fine NEIPA without any water adjustments at all.

The "ratio" does not matter ...... the total amount of Calcium, Chloride, Sulfate, etc. does have an impact on the beer though. 2:1 ratio is meaningless, as 10:5 is a 2:1 ratio as is 300:150..... but very different results.

I do agree, for you personally - if YOUR water works for you - keep doing what you are doing. However, the idea that "my water tastes good" so there is no point worrying about it and it will make a fine beer.... that is just absolutely not true.

My water tastes great. It also has a bicarbonate level of 270..... it will ruin an IPA 10 times out of 10. It works for you because you are fortunate to apparently have a low mineral tap water..... However, that is not the same as "there is no need to worry about any of this." Lots of people do not have a source of tap water that will allow them to make a good pale/hoppy beer.

Dealing with water is NOT complicated or confusing at all. I agree that you should not do adjustments to tap water without knowing what you are starting with.... that is why all recommendations on here are with RO water or ppm values in a calculator.

The moral of the story is actually: "You can make a good NE IPA without worrying about water additions if you are lucky enough to have the right water coming out of your tap. However, if you are not lucky, then you can EASILY get water that will work just fine by using RO water and adding any quality between 1/2 to 1 tsp each of CaCl and Gypsum to each 5 gallons of water you use."

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Fair point.
Maybe I'm just lucky, because my tap water seems to work for pretty much any style, and I do everything from (lots of) German lagers to NEIPAs, and I've felt no need for water adjustments.
Also, FWIW, I live in the Northeast - Massachusetts to be specific, so maybe my water profile already resembles what a lot of these NEIPA producers are making.

Any suggestions on how to get my tap water measured for mineral (that isn't prohibitively expensive)?

 

[Braufessor]

Fair point.


Any suggestions on how to get my tap water measured for mineral (that isn't prohibitively expensive)?

Ward labs is probably the easiest/simplest/fastest/cheap.
Test W-6 is really all you need unless you suspect iron in your water then maybe the W-5A, $21 for W-6.
http://www.wardlab.com/FeeSchedule/WardLabs_FeeSchedule_Web.pdf#page=10

Here is the form to submit a sample:
http://www.wardlab.com/images/SampleForms/InformationSheetForAllOthers.pdf

They give you some collection protocol here....
http://www.wardlab.com/SamplingInfo/ProperSampling.aspx#Water
.....basically, just get a water bottle you would buy in a convince store (12-16 ounce type). Empty contents. Rinse with your source water several times. Fill. Put cap on good. Maybe tape cap. Put in ziplock bag in case of leak. Send bottle, $$, form asking for W-6 test. Send it off. Usually have your results e-mailed to you within the week.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Thanks.
Like I said, I don't feel the need to adjust anything, but it would be nice to know what my baseline profile is.

 

[Braufessor]

Thanks.
Like I said, I don't feel the need to adjust anything, but it would be nice to know what my baseline profile is.

Yeah - it is good info to have at least once I think. Either to confirm that your water is solid for brewing, or in case you branch out into a style where it matters.

When I started brewing my dark beers were always very good. My light beers were always very bad. I brewed for over a decade before I even knew that water mattered. Once I got my water report and found out how high my alkalinity was.... that told me why my pale beers sucked. As soon as I went to RO water for pale beers - they were very good.

 

[stickyfinger]

Thanks.
Like I said, I don't feel the need to adjust anything, but it would be nice to know what my baseline profile is.

If you are ever curious about it, try using Bru'n water and play with the sulfate
level. I have not done a side-by-side, but I think that adding 150 ppm sulfate with low chloride vs adding 100 ppm chloride with low sulfate, creates a pretty clear effect on the beer that can be manipulated to make different types of beers or different types of IPAs. I enjoy changing them if I want a crisp beer vs a more rounded beer.

 

[stickyfinger]

Yeah - it is good info to have at least once I think. Either to confirm that your water is solid for brewing, or in case you branch out into a style where it matters.

When I started brewing my dark beers were always very good. My light beers were always very bad. I brewed for over a decade before I even knew that water mattered. Once I got my water report and found out how high my alkalinity was.... that told me why my pale beers sucked. As soon as I went to RO water for pale beers - they were very good.

Was it that your pH was way off in the beers and you weren't measuring the pH then?

 

[Braufessor]

Was it that your pH was way off in the beers and you weren't measuring the pH then?

Yeah.... it was everything.... I didn't measure anything at all because "my water tasted good so it was fine to brew with."

Chlorine was an issue, plus I am sure my pH must have been very high which made the beer astringent and it all just was a harsh mess in the end.

I made a damn mean stout though

 

[TheHopfather]

Ok how did u get that beer to look like that, that's the look I've been trying to achieve. The last batch of 1318 I used dropped a lot more than the previous batch and now that I think about it it seems to be dropping more with every subsequent time I use it. My initial batch looked more like your pic, that hazy, milkshake look. I love the orangey color, did u use some sort of Munich or marris otter to give it that color.

I think a lot of the color simply comes from the lighting in my kitchen. It was dusk and I had the warm-ish track lighting on. This was the was updated Braufessor recipe, the only thing I changed was the boil time. I've got a Grainfather recently and still dialing in my water amounts, I ended up boiling for 90min rather than 60 to get to the proper finished levels, maybe that darkened things up a tad?

I attached another picture with some different lighting.

Not to be critical (or if I am, at least in a positive, constructive way), but that looks a bit too milky. Cloudy/hazy is one thing, and looks great in a beer. I think opaque/milky is not only out of place (though that is entirely my 100% subjective opinion), but also temporary - some of that has to just be suspended solids and not actually in solution, so my guess is that it will precipitate out in a few days.

But, the important thing is that if you (and anyone else reading this) like it that way: more power to you - if we wanted other people to tell us what our beer should look/taste like, we would just buy our beer!

BTW, the color is awesome though!

It looks a bit more "milky" in the picture than it did in real life. However I was surprised at just how opaque it ended up in the end. The keg is kicked now but it really didn't clear up much over its life. I think I got a tad over a month with this keg and it basically looked the same when it kicked. Tasted great though!

 

[motosapiens]

Yeah - it is good info to have at least once I think. Either to confirm that your water is solid for brewing, or in case you branch out into a style where it matters.

When I started brewing my dark beers were always very good. My light beers were always very bad. I brewed for over a decade before I even knew that water mattered. Once I got my water report and found out how high my alkalinity was.... that told me why my pale beers sucked. As soon as I went to RO water for pale beers - they were very good.

I had the same issue, and *seem* to have fixed it by adjusting the mash and sparge ph with lactic acid as necessary. Even my darker beers have improved and become less astringent (tannic) from the sparge acidification.

Are there other flavor issues with high bicarbonate? or is it just the alkalinity? Mine is in the low 200's from the tap, but otherwise the water is pretty tasty.

 

[EndOfLine]

I had the same issue, and *seem* to have fixed it by adjusting the mash and sparge ph with lactic acid as necessary. Even my darker beers have improved and become less astringent (tannic) from the sparge acidification.

Are there other flavor issues with high bicarbonate? or is it just the alkalinity? Mine is in the low 200's from the tap, but otherwise the water is pretty tasty.

The main issue with high bicarbonate/alkalinity water is that it will raise your mash/sparge/boil ph to a lvl where you will extract "no so good tasting" compounds/minerals/polyphenols from the grain husk, as well as hops.

According to Martin brungard, some of these compounds are tannins, silicates, and oxylates. (From grain husk)

If you are already measuring your ph and treating your water accordingly, you don't need to worry about this. However, you may need to worry about what else is in your water besides chlorine. Such as your magnesium, clorides, sulfates, sodium, etc.

 

[motosapiens]

The main issue with high bicarbonate/alkalinity water is that it will raise your mash/sparge/boil ph to a lvl where you will extract "no so good tasting" compounds/minerals/polyphenols from the grain husk, as well as hops.

According to Martin brungard, some of these compounds are tannins, silicates, and oxylates. (From grain husk)

If you are already measuring your ph and treating your water accordingly, you don't need to worry about this. However, you may need to worry about what else is in your water besides chlorine. Such as your magnesium, clorides, sulfates, sodium, etc.

thanks, that's about what I thought, and I was definitely getting some ugly tannic tastes, especially in lighter beers (but not in hefeweizens, of course).

fortunately our chlorine is very low (undetectable by me), but even so i started leaving the water out overnight to let it dissipate. Everything else is pretty reasonable, but I'm new to dealing with water, so I keep asking the same questions in hopes that it will sink in eventually, lol. I'm not yet measuring the ph, just guesstimating with the water report and bru'nwater, which has made a fairly dramatic difference.

 

[TBillionaire]

Do you guys think 200:100 chloride to sulfate would make a beer taste salty? Just looking for more of a soft mouthfeel and not necessarily "salty"

 

[emr25]

Brewed a second batch of this a few weeks ago, it's in the dry hop keg now and should be ready to tap within 4-5 days.

On the second batch I wanted to increase the ABV some and also attempted to get more of a glowing orange color (think Tree House Julius) by adding 4 oz Briess 2 Row 40L. However, both batches have a nearly identical appearance, hazy yellow (SRM around 5).

Any recommendations to get closer to a glowing orange (SRM 7 range)?

Batch 1 (1.055 OG, 1.012 FG, Conan)

5 lbs Rahr 2 Row
5 lbs Muntons Pale Maris Otter
0.5 lbs Flaked Oats
0.5 lbs Flaked Barley
0.25 lbs Rahr White Wheat
0.25 lbs Gambrinus Honey

60 Min - 1.0 oz Warrior
Flameout - 1.0 oz Citra / 1.0 oz Mosaic / 1.0 oz Galaxy
Whirlpool - 1.0 oz Citra / 1.0 oz Mosaic / 1.0 oz Galaxy
Dry Hop (Day 3) - 1.5 oz Citra / 1.0 oz Mosaic / 0.5 oz Galaxy
Dry Hop (Day 10) - 1.5 oz Citra / 1.0 oz Mosaic / 0.5 oz Galaxy

Batch 2 (1.070 OG, 1.012 FG, WY1318)

6 lbs Rahr 2 Row
6 lbs Muntons Pale Maris Otter
1 lbs Flaked Oats
0.5 lbs Flaked Barley
0.5 lbs Rahr White Wheat
0.25 lbs Gambrinus Honey
0.25 lbs Briess 2 Row 40L

30 Min - 1.0 oz Columbus
Flameout - 1.5 oz Citra / 1.5 oz Mosaic
Whirlpool - 1.5 oz Citra / 1.5 oz Mosaic
Dry Hop (Day 2) - 1.5 oz Citra / 1.5 oz Mosaic
Dry Hop (Day 11) - 1.5 oz Citra / 1.5 oz Mosaic

 

[motosapiens]

Do you guys think 200:100 chloride to sulfate would make a beer taste salty? Just looking for more of a soft mouthfeel and not necessarily "salty"

probably depends on your personal tastes. I went 170 or 180 chloride, and I also have sodium content in my water that is just under 50. it almost tastes a little salty if i think about it that way. Certainly not bad or undrinkable, in fact it's delicious, but i will probably drop the chloride to more like 100-120 in the future. My advice would be to just try it and see what you think. it won't be enough to make the beer suck.

I honestly couldn't tell a whole lot of mouthfeel difference between the high chloride version and the high sulfate version. it's there, but it's pretty subtle. i think i get more mouthfeel difference out of oats/wheat, and higher mash temps.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

B

Any recommendations to get closer to a glowing orange (SRM 7 range)?

I use about 3 lb of Vienna in my grist and I get a nice light orange.

 

[BreezyBrew]

Anyone ever get a "tartness" from 1318? It's the first time I've used the yeast, and it reminds me of other English yeasts that have the same tartness to them that I don't like... at all. Kind of regretting I used it. I fermented at 64 degrees. I use Bru'n water to build my profile and RO.

 

[Braufessor]

Anyone ever get a "tartness" from 1318? It's the first time I've used the yeast, and it reminds me of other English yeasts that have the same tartness to them that I don't like... at all. Kind of regretting I used it. I fermented at 64 degrees. I use Bru'n water to build my profile and RO.

Yep - that is the thing I am not a big fan of in 1318 as well.

 

[grassfeeder]

Anyone ever get a "tartness" from 1318? It's the first time I've used the yeast, and it reminds me of other English yeasts that have the same tartness to them that I don't like... at all. Kind of regretting I used it. I fermented at 64 degrees. I use Bru'n water to build my profile and RO.

try starting at 65-66 and ramp your temps?

 

[Braufessor]

try starting at 65-66 and ramp your temps?

I always detect a "tartness" with that yeast.... at any range of temperatures in the "normal" range 64-72. It isn't terrible or anything, but it is just a characteristic that seems to come through and it is not something I am personally a huge fan of.

 

[crusader1612]

Brewed a second batch of this a few weeks ago, it's in the dry hop keg now and should be ready to tap within 4-5 days.

On the second batch I wanted to increase the ABV some and also attempted to get more of a glowing orange color (think Tree House Julius) by adding 4 oz Briess 2 Row 40L. However, both batches have a nearly identical appearance, hazy yellow (SRM around 5).

Any recommendations to get closer to a glowing orange (SRM 7 range)?

Batch 1 (1.055 OG, 1.012 FG, Conan)

5 lbs Rahr 2 Row
5 lbs Muntons Pale Maris Otter
0.5 lbs Flaked Oats
0.5 lbs Flaked Barley
0.25 lbs Rahr White Wheat
0.25 lbs Gambrinus Honey

60 Min - 1.0 oz Warrior
Flameout - 1.0 oz Citra / 1.0 oz Mosaic / 1.0 oz Galaxy
Whirlpool - 1.0 oz Citra / 1.0 oz Mosaic / 1.0 oz Galaxy
Dry Hop (Day 3) - 1.5 oz Citra / 1.0 oz Mosaic / 0.5 oz Galaxy
Dry Hop (Day 10) - 1.5 oz Citra / 1.0 oz Mosaic / 0.5 oz Galaxy

What did u mash at for Batch 1?
Looks a tasty recipe

 

[emr25]

What did u mash at for Batch 1?
Looks a tasty recipe

Both were around 152*, and my setup will typically lose 2* over 60 minutes, stirring every 20 minutes.

Batch 1 is @Braufessor OP recipe. Batch 2 is a scaled up version, minus the Galaxy.

 

[BreezyBrew]

try starting at 65-66 and ramp your temps?

I should have mentioned, I ramped to 69 on day 4 about a degree a day. It sat at 69 for about 6 days.

I always detect a "tartness" with that yeast.... at any range of temperatures in the "normal" range 64-72. It isn't terrible or anything, but it is just a characteristic that seems to come through and it is not something I am personally a huge fan of.

I'm glad to hear it's not just me. I was thinking either the yeast or mash pH. Good to know the pH was probably right range.

Thanks for the info! Great beer otherwise!