New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[leesmith]

I still think it adds value in this style if for nothing else than stability.

I agree that it’s pertinent to this style.

What I like about the article I linked was all the trub separation was done through process and not with additions of Irish moss or whatever fining. And the research done and quoted in that article was more than just kettle finings drop out proteins...some good quotes. Most of the online stuff that I could find about kettle finings wasn’t very thorough....and honestly a lot about clear beer and less of the other benefits of separation.

What does this mean to the style?
Trub separation can smooth out bittering....seems like that’s important to people with this style.

Stability....tons of posts on Reddit and this platform about IPA’s being lackluster (stale) after a short time once packaged.

I like the Suarez pour (Treehouse does too)...and it’s my own personal thing. Big fluffy pillowy head that settles like a marshmallow to the very last sip.

And if anything...harvested yeast isn’t a mess of proteins and whatever other stuff makes trub.

 

[Dgallo]

I still think it adds value in this style if for nothing else than stability.

The proteins remaining after the hot break should have no impact on stability. Oxygen is your enemy. Which lead me to my response to lee’s

Stability....tons of posts on Reddit and this platform about IPA’s being lackluster (stale) after a short time once packaged.

Other than pure oxidation issues, The biggest issues people are facing with stale beer in this style is over hopping or excessive contact time. Both of these issues lead to extracting excess polyphenols and chlorophyll which are highly susceptible to oxidation and quickly degrade causing discoloration and stale/lackluster like flavors.

Another issue people overlook is yeast health and letting your yeast finish and clean up at warmer temps.

 

[leesmith]

The proteins remaining after the hot break should have no impact on stability. Oxygen is your enemy. Which lead me to my response to lee’s

As the article I linked earlier says, "Cold break consists of protein-polyphenol compounds..." which when reduced can result in, "A more rounded beer flavor particularly in the bitterness, an improvement of the beer foam (as a result of the precipitation of fatty acids), an improvement of the flavour stability, and a more intensive fermentation."

Other than pure oxidation issues, The biggest issues people are facing with stale beer in this style is over hopping or excessive contact time. Both of these issues lead to extracting excess polyphenols and chlorophyll which are highly susceptible to oxidation and quickly degrade causing discoloration and stale/lackluster like flavors.

Could you provide some insight or references for this? Again see above...If we reduce excess polyphenols from the onset wouldn't it help with dry hopping to mitigate the negative results of excess polyphenols introduced during dry hopping?

Another issue people overlook is yeast health and letting your yeast finish and clean up at warmer temps.

Yes...I agree.

 

[marchuk96]

I agree that it’s pertinent to this style.

What I like about the article I linked was all the trub separation was done through process and not with additions of Irish moss or whatever fining. And the research done and quoted in that article was more than just kettle finings drop out proteins...some good quotes. Most of the online stuff that I could find about kettle finings wasn’t very thorough....and honestly a lot about clear beer and less of the other benefits of separation.

What does this mean to the style?
Trub separation can smooth out bittering....seems like that’s important to people with this style.

Stability....tons of posts on Reddit and this platform about IPA’s being lackluster (stale) after a short time once packaged.

I like the Suarez pour (Treehouse does too)...and it’s my own personal thing. Big fluffy pillowy head that settles like a marshmallow to the very last sip.

And if anything...harvested yeast isn’t a mess of proteins and whatever other stuff makes trub.

I have stopped worrying about trub into fermentor for n.e i.p.a ...I used to but haven't seen any Ill effects from trying to limit it versus just letting in whatever gets in.. and my beers have no issues with stability...head retention , bitterness, lacing, or mouthfeel...i also use flaked wheat but always included flaked oats and carapils...usually a pound of each for my 5.5 gal batches...and def no whirlfloc..now if I were going for a west coast IPA...I may limit trub as i would want it as clear as possible and add whirlfloc...

 

[marchuk96]

As the article I linked earlier says, "Cold break consists of protein-polyphenol compounds..." which when reduced can result in, "A more rounded beer flavor particularly in the bitterness, an improvement of the beer foam (as a result of the precipitation of fatty acids), an improvement of the flavour stability, and a more intensive fermentation."



Could you provide some insight or references for this? Again see above...If we reduce excess polyphenols from the onset wouldn't it help with dry hopping to mitigate the negative results of excess polyphenols introduced during dry hopping?



Yes...I agree.

And not that I'm saying you or info quoted in the article are wrong...but the findings are a tad dated no...

 

[marchuk96]

This was perhaps brulosophy's worst xbt...they were completely different beers from the start

I only saw water adjustment as a difference and it was to make them more similar...did i miss something?

 

[Dgallo]

As the article I linked earlier says, "Cold break consists of protein-polyphenol compounds..." which when reduced can result in, "A more rounded beer flavor particularly in the bitterness, an improvement of the beer foam (as a result of the precipitation of fatty acids), an improvement of the flavour stability, and a more intensive fermentation."

So since I used a wort chiller, this could certainly be happening without me aiming for it. Since I’ve never had an issue here, I haven’t researched it but from your article it would make sense that I’m Obtaining this cold break on top of the hot break.

As the
Could you provide some insight or references for this? Innovation Again see above...If we reduce excess polyphenols from the onset wouldn't it help with dry hopping to mitigate the negative results of excess polyphenols introduced during dry hopping?

I will try to find the article again; I did not save It. However, the research discussed that your hot break and whirlpool will drop your polyphenol/protein from boil and hopstand addition. They also mention fermentation will drop additional polyphenol. So this would be by itself little impact in final beer. When I’m discussing excess hopping I’m talking about folks who dry hop at a 1.5-2oz per gallon which some articles promote, which I totally disagree with through actual practice. Just like the article you posted before https://www.researchgate.net/profil...rofiles-of-beer.pdf?origin=publication_detail showed that 1oz/gallon was the ideal dryhop range. For those who don’t use mesh bags this could be closer to .7-.8oz/gal. This leads me to what I have found in my own experience that increased dryhopping rates can lead to quicker degrade and increased oxidation issues.

 

[Hannabrew]

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/trub-seperation-why-and-how/

This article sums up key points from some of the top professional brewing bibles

Break material = faster stalling, foam negative

 

[marchuk96]

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/trub-seperation-why-and-how/

This article sums up key points from some of the top professional brewing bibles

Break material = faster stalling, foam negative

Again...slightly dated info
Again... slightly dated

 

[Dgallo]

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/trub-seperation-why-and-how/

This article sums up key points from some of the top professional brewing bibles

Break material = faster stalling, foam negative

Idk if you wrote this in response to me but I do agree with leaving break material in the kettled. But for this style, I personally will not use any addition finings. This was certainly a good read though, I feel like I’ve seen the references articles previously.

 

[leesmith]

Again...slightly dated info
Again... slightly dated

Screenshot from this video:

Same textbook pictured in the screenshot is quoted in the article. Except Shaun only has the more outdated 3rd edition there.

 

[leesmith]

So since I used a wort chiller, this could certainly be happening without me aiming for it. Since I’ve never had an issue here, I haven’t researched it but from your article it would make sense that I’m Obtaining this cold break on top of the hot break.

The article discusses the optimal separation of cold break, which does not happen at pitching temperatures. 5c (41f) it states. That’s why the author puts his wort in the freezer for 45 min before transferring to the fermentor once it’s reached 40 f. I’m not obtaining a proper cold break separation with my immersion chiller AND waiting an hour because I’m not chilling cold enough as I can only reach 60f. So I doubt you are too unless your getting the ale that cold.

They also mention fermentation will drop additional polyphenol. So this would be by itself little impact in final beer. When I’m discussing excess hopping I’m talking about folks who dry hop at a 1.5-2oz per gallon which some articles promote, which I totally disagree with through actual practice. Just like the article you posted before https://www.researchgate.net/profil...rofiles-of-beer.pdf?origin=publication_detail showed that 1oz/gallon was the ideal dryhop range. For those who don’t use mesh bags this could be closer to .7-.8oz/gal. This leads me to what I have found in my own experience that increased dryhopping rates can lead to quicker degrade and increased oxidation issues.

I understand what your saying, but I also think more research with different hop varieties would be nessasary to get specific data per variety in order to recommend hopping rates. An ounce of Amarillo is not the same as an ounce of Galaxy. It’s hard to not get grassy/tea like flavors from Amarillo at higher dosage rates as opposed to Galaxy....at least from my experience. From the research, they learned Cascade should be dry hopped at a rate of no more than 1-1.5 oz per gallon in order to avoid herbal/tea like aromas vs. citrus aromas.

 

[Hannabrew]

Again...slightly dated info
Again... slightly dated

Dated as in how? Just because something was written a while ago doesn't necessarily mean it's dated or incorrect. What has superseded this research (and please don't send xbrmt links)?

 

[Hannabrew]

The article discusses the optimal separation of cold break, which does not happen at pitching temperatures. 5c (41f) it states. That’s why the author puts his wort in the freezer for 45 min before transferring to the fermentor once it’s reached 40 f. I’m not obtaining a proper cold break separation with my immersion chiller AND waiting an hour because I’m not chilling cold enough as I can only reach 60f. So I doubt you are too unless your getting the ale that cold.

Yeah I also don't chill all the way down to 40...I just use kettle finings, chill as low as I can while whirlpooling, and then let rest for 45-60 minutes before racking. My only point was simply that there will be a slight negative impact to your beer if you leave out kettle finings (unless you're separating break material some other way). Whether or not you care about that is up to you. I just don't see why you would purposely leave them out...what benefit are you getting other than cost savings?

 

[Dgallo]

I just don't see why you would purposely leave them out...what benefit are you getting other than cost savings?

I can only speak for myself and why I will not use fining for NE IPAs. Simply put, I am aiming to have more proteins in my beer. For both body and mouthfeel as well as appearance. I want this thing to be hazy and I want it to be full bodied but soft at the same time. I achieve this through an increased protein grainbill, mash temps, and water.

 

[BrewCityBaller]

Kegged yesterday using a closed transfer technique I first saw in this thread. Much more effective than how I used to do it. Hydro sample was gorgeous and the aroma was off the charts. Imperial Juice yeast seemed to do the trick. Can’t wait to sample in a few days.

 

[SRJHops]

Another issue people overlook is yeast health and letting your yeast finish and clean up at warmer temps.

Dgallo, I'm sure you've posted it somewhere, but could you remind me of your preferred yeast temps and timing? (I know all yeasts are different, but is there a rule of thumb?)

For my current batch I am using Safale-04, which lists the optimal fermentation range as 64 - 75. I fermented for 1 week at 67, then I raised it to 72 for the final week. I am wondering about those temps, and if I should have raised the temp sooner? Thanks!

 

[Hannabrew]

I can only speak for myself and why I will not use fining for NE IPAs. Simply put, I am aiming to have more proteins in my beer. For both body and mouthfeel as well as appearance. I want this thing to be hazy and I want it to be full bodied but soft at the same time. I achieve this through an increased protein grainbill, mash temps, and water.

I use finings and never have an issue with the NEIPAs looking the part. They're not murky but have a nice haze similar to TH. I don't think the finings have enough umph to remove enough of the wheat/oats that you're purposely adding to the grain bill to make a difference. They will however clean up a good majority of the stuff you don't want (break material).

But again, if you've got a process that works for you, then stick with it!

 

[Dgallo]

Dgallo, I'm sure you've posted it somewhere, but could you remind me of your preferred yeast temps and timing? (I know all yeasts are different, but is there a rule of thumb?)

For my current batch I am using Safale-04, which lists the optimal fermentation range as 64 - 75. I fermented for 1 week at 67, then I raised it to 72 for the final week. I am wondering about those temps, and if I should have raised the temp sooner? Thanks!

fermentation temps in general are yeast specific. Same goes for ester production. Some strains produce more than others. US-04 wouldnt be my first pick for this style due to its higher flocculation rate, but it still will work fine. From my experience using it, it doesn’t produce a huge ester profile but it does lean to fruity.

Now for strains such as London ale III and imperials dryhop, For greater ester production you are looking to be on the higher end of the range just after the climax of active fermentation and above 70 for the rest/cleanup. I would pitch at 67-68. Let it climb to 70-72 for first 2-3 days then let it rise to 74-76 for 2/3 days. Then let it sit and clean up around 70-72. This driving really elevates the ester production for the two strains I’ve mentioned.

 

[SRJHops]

fermentation temps in general are yeast specific. Same goes for ester production. Some strains produce more than others. US-04 wouldnt be my first pick for this style do to its higher flocculation rate. From my experience it doesn’t produce a huge ester profile but it does lean to fruity.

Now for strains such as London ale III and imperials dryhop, For greater ester production you are looking to be on the higher end of the range just after the climax of active fermentation and above 70 for the rest/cleanup. I would pitch at 67-68. Let it climb to 70-72 for first 2-3 days then let it rise to 74-76 for 2/3 days. Let let it sit and clean up around 70-72. This driving really elevates the ester production for the two strains I’ve mentioned.

Yeah, I'm going to move to a new yeast (Juice or III) for the next batch, but 04 has been a good yeast for dialing in my procedures, and I've been pleased with how easy it is to use. (I've never had Treehouse Julius, but I think they use Safale-04, FWIW.)

In the winter I can't let the temp rise -- I have to turn up the heat on the fermentation temp controller. So, if I pitch/start fermentation at 67, do you think I should I turn it up to 70-72 the next morning (when it is actively fermenting)? Or should I wait until Day 2 to turn it up? Thanks for the advice - much appreciated!

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah, I'm going to move to a new yeast (Juice or III) for the next batch, but 04 has been a good yeast for dialing in my procedures, and I've been pleased with how easy it is to use. (I've never had Treehouse Julius, but I think they use Safale-04, FWIW.)

In the winter I can't let the temp rise -- I have to turn up the heat on the fermentation temp controller. So, if I pitch/start fermentation at 67, do you think I should I turn it up to 70-72 the next morning (when it is actively fermenting)? Or should I wait until Day 2 to turn it up? Thanks for the advice - much appreciated!

Most likely the fermentation itself will warm It up to 70-72. May even get you to 74ish, all depends on the ambient room temp. It’s gunna take some practice and understanding of How much rise you’ll get just through fermentation Alone and how you’ll be able to warm it through the temp control but through experience you'll get a feel for the timing that works for you and your equipment.

 

[SRJHops]

Most likely the fermentation itself will warm It up to 70-72. May even get you to 74ish, all depends on the ambient room temp. It’s gunna take some practice and understanding of How much rise you’ll get just through fermentation Alone and how you’ll be able to warm it through the temp control but through experience you'll get a feel for the timing that works for you and your equipment.

That is true in the summer, for sure, when the room temp is mid 60's. But it might hit -30 below outside on Wednesday night, so I'm guessing the ambient room temp might dip to 50 or lower! The good news is the fermentation temp controller will keep the beer nice and warm.

But your point is well taken. Peak fermentation for 04 seems to be done in just 2-3 days, so I think that's when I should be turning up the heat to that first target, rather than waiting a week like I did this last time. Thanks again.

 

[Dgallo]

@SRJHops Just be careful. Fermentation alone should cause a temp rise inside the fermenter of 6-8•f. So you may not want to set it at 70 because you’ll end up getting 78 during active fermentation. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[SRJHops]

@SRJHops Just be careful. Fermentation alone should cause a temp rise inside the fermenter of 6-8•f. So you may not want to set it at 70 because you’ll end up getting 78 during active fermentation. Just something to keep in mind.

Thanks. The fermentation controller has a probe that goes into the actual wort/beer, so it will keep it whatever temp I set it at, plus or minus 1 degree. So I think I am safe in the winter to dial up the temps. But for sure I will watch it in the summer months.

 

[marchuk96]

Thanks. The fermentation controller has a probe that goes into the actual wort/beer, so it will keep it whatever temp I set it at, plus or minus 1 degree. So I think I am safe in the winter to dial up the temps. But for sure I will watch it in the summer months.

I typically just let my beer free rise from around a 68-70 degree pitch temp...my ambient room temp is about 68-70 ...my last beer during the first 2 days rose all the way up to near 78 degrees in this environment..this was a bit more aggresive of a rise than i have had in the past..i used juice ...which is a fantastic yeast f.y.i....and its max temp range is 74 but didn't really experience any major faults from this happening...thankfully it was forgiving...lots of great esters for sure...but like dgallo said and from my experience...just be aware that u can get up to a 10 degree jump in those initial 2 days and obviously it is also yeast dependent...cheers!!

 

[marchuk96]

View attachment 609577View attachment 609578

Kegged yesterday using a closed transfer technique I first saw in this thread. Much more effective than how I used to do it. Hydro sample was gorgeous and the aroma was off the charts. Imperial Juice yeast seemed to do the trick. Can’t wait to sample in a few days.

Looks banging!!! Send me some!!!!

 

[marchuk96]

Dated as in how? Just because something was written a while ago doesn't necessarily mean it's dated or incorrect. What has superseded this research (and please don't send xbrmt links)?

Lol...OK...I'm just saying things do change over time...and while some old findings may still hold truth today others have fallen to the way side.. And what works for some may not neccesarily work for others...While I don't have any readings to throw out there..I'm only speaking from experience with my own brews...cheers

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks. The fermentation controller has a probe that goes into the actual wort/beer, so it will keep it whatever temp I set it at, plus or minus 1 degree. So I think I am safe in the winter to dial up the temps. But for sure I will watch it in the summer months.

So the prob that goes into your wort is both a heating and cooling element? Or do you ferment in a temp control chamber that can heat and cool; and the prob reads the temp of the wort and kicks on whatever unit is needed at the time?

 

[SRJHops]

So the prob that goes into your wort is both a heating and cooling element? Or do you ferment in a temp control chamber that can heat and cool; and the prob reads the temp of the wort and kicks on whatever unit is needed at the time?

It can only heat. It's just a temp controller (with wort probe) that is attached to a heating pad that I tape around the carboy. Nothing too fancy, but it makes it possible to make ales in the winter in my cold basement. Otherwise it would have to be lagers! New England Lager anyone?!

 

[Hannabrew]

I totally get if you have a process that works for you then go for it. It's when the advice is given to others as if there is no consequence that I feel the need to play devil's advocate and give the other side.

This particular subject strikes a nerve with me as I hear so many folks trying to brew NEIPAs where their primary focus is The Haze (or in most cases The Murk). The goal is a tasty beer; the haze is a consequence of of the ingredients/yeast choice and possibly the timing of the dry hopping.

In my limited brewing experience, I've seen so much misinformation on forums that I stick to actual research (not xbmts) and written books with solid references. IMO just because a NEIPA looks a bit different than other beers, doesn't mean that traditional tried and true brewing practices shouldn't be followed.

OTOH, people have different goals and what matters to one may not matter at all to another. Sh!t, half the new breweries I go to these days have ZERO head retention and they could care less...why would they as their taprooms are packed. Stability? Who cares, the beer will be gone in a week. So for that reason, I say do whatever works for you...just don't say that universally agreed upon literature doesn't apply just because.