noob kegerator issue...foaming on initial pour

[rickswa]

Hey everyone. I got a kegerator as a gift a few months ago but have been chasing my tail and pulling my hair out trying to get it to work properly and I'm finally at what I think is a dead end. The unit is a Edgestar BR3002BL and initially had a TapRite 3" stainless double tower on it. The main problem I have had since day 1 is when pouring, the initial pour (entire pint glass) would be VERY foamy and subsequent ones would be fine. Then when time came and you went to pour the next round, it just repeated the same issue. I had thought it was the tower not being insulated that well and causing the lines to warm so I purchased one of the iron pipe towers from TappedBeer which is insulated on the inside with reflectix honeycomb type insulation that extends out the bottom of the base about 3". I also used Perlick 630 faucets. When I first went to install it, the hole into the kegerator seemed very tight with the insulation so I took a dremel and removed some of the material from the adapter inside the kegerator that keeps the tower from wobbling. I have two kegs in it; Michelob Ultra and Founders All Day IPA. I am at 6000' above sea level elevation and when the tower was ordered, I had them put 10' lines of 3/16" ID poly tubing on it. The TapRite had shorter lines so I thought that may have been part of the problem. I'm running the kegerator at 36 degrees (had it at 34 but thought maybe bumping the temp up would help) and the psi on the ultra is set at 17 (any lower and it just seemed flat) and the All Day IPA is at 14. The temperature of the first pour (in glass) was 41 and the one poured immediately after that was 38. The distance from the center of the keg to the faucet is about 36". The subsequent pours after the first seem really good, but I'm just sick of pouring beer down the drain or not being able to walk up and just pour a beer without getting a glass of foam. The odd thing is that my brother has the exact same tower with zero issues so I'm at a loss. The only difference between his tower and mine is the elevation (he is at 800' and I'm at 6000' and a difference in the kegerator itself which could affect clearance going up). I'm pretty much at my wits end with this thing and just wonder if anyone is able to help me in any way to get this thing working properly. THANK YOU to anyone who can please help me.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Definitely sounds like a line/faucet temp issue. What happens if you just pour a few ounces in the glass, swig it down, and then attempt a full pour? It should only take 2-3 ounces of beer flowing to cool the line and faucet.

 

[rickswa]

Thanks for the reply. I tried what you recommended and that did work on the IPA. Just a few ounces poured (mostly foam) but then it did much better. On the Ultra, that’s a lot worse. I have to get thru pretty much a full pint of foam before it will pour normally. Thanks again for helping me with this. It’s just been a frustrating experience since I got it.

 

[WBCo]

Off the top of my head, I would think that because the Mich Ultra is being held at a higher psi, that more carbonation is coming out of solution in the line, which is why its taking more beer to clear.

Do you have anything in the kegerator that moves the air around? A small fan aimed up at the tower might help.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Thanks for the reply. I tried what you recommended and that did work on the IPA. Just a few ounces poured (mostly foam) but then it did much better. On the Ultra, that’s a lot worse. I have to get thru pretty much a full pint of foam before it will pour normally. Thanks again for helping me with this. It’s just been a frustrating experience since I got it.

Okay, well that's a good sign. I think the higher carbonation on the Ultra side is the culprit for why you would need to pour a lot more beer before it settles down. After the first couple ounces, I'm sure it's cooled things down a bit, but not enough to overcome the carb. You need to slow down the rate of the pour to overcome it. Your options would be to add 3-5 more feet of line to that tap or look at replacing the faucet with a flow control model, such as a Perlick 650. Intertap also makes a flow control faucet.

 

[rickswa]

Thanks again for the help!!! So I don't have any fans right now but if I can get this thing to work normally, I'm willing to get or do whatever is needed. The tower is 2" black iron pipe that comes up and makes a T so it's not as wide as the standard 3" tower and also has that layer of insulation around the inside too. I tried to post photos but couldn't figure out how to insert a photo from my PC. As far as the IPA side, or any beer for that matter, is there any way to be able to just walk up without having to pour a few ounces of foam each round? I've seen the fans with the tubes that go up the tower but I really don't know if I could fit the tube up there, and if I was able to, I'm not sure I would have any room for return airflow left. Also, do the fans auto cutoff or just run constantly? On the ultra side, I also notice that after it sits for about 30 minutes or so after a pour, bubbles start forming in the beer line. I thought maybe it was an issue with the coupler seal so I reset the coupler to the keg, but same thing, no bubbles noticed right after a pour but then they appear and get bigger as time goes on. I have an infrared thermometer if that would help with more info as far as the faucet temp, but I'm guessing the exterior temp of the faucet won't give any good data? Do you think the psi I'm using at 6000' is about right (14 for All Day IPA and 17 for the Ultra)?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Ideally, preventing the lines and faucets from becoming warmer than the beer in the kegs would likely solve your issue, but getting there will probably be easier said than done. As previously mentioned, running a fan to circulate air may help, especially if you can get cold air to flow up into the tower, but I doubt you can get all the way to where you need to be by just adding a fan. The bubbles in the line are forming because the line and the beer in it is warming up after it has been cooled from pouring. I think most people just live with it by doing an initial short pour.

I'm not sure if elevation plays into the equation here. Maybe it does, but I really don't know. I'm at 5000' and don't normally have issues with foam, but I generally run 10-12 PSI on everything. The fact that you are running 14/17 PSI is adding to your troubles. Is your brother running those same pressures on his system?

The general consensus around here is that higher pressures require longer line. The rule of thumb seems to be 1' per PSI. Flow control faucets can also help up to a point, but they're not a magic bullet.

 

[rickswa]

You've certainly been a ton of help and given me hope that this might end up working after all.lol. My brother runs his psi really low...like 8-9 at 800' elev. usually but for some reason with the exact same tower, he has no initial pour problems. He did have the problems with the stock tower and switching fixed his completely, but not so much for me. I had extra 9/16" OD co2 hose so I made sure I could fit it up in the tower (it can) so I ordered a Coldtower Super Tower Cooler on amazon and hopefully by getting the cooling hose near the top of the main tower shaft that can hit both ends of the T up top for cooling. It doesn't have an auto off but I'll just have to turn it on and off when I want. Also, I did kick the psi down a bit based on what you said so hopefully that will help too and I'm going to get the flow control faucet for the ultra that my wife made me put in there to completely attack this thing full on. If the cooling fan doesn't help, I plan on switching back to the original 3" TapRight tower since I know there is room in there and also that the cooling hose can easily reach both lines and fittings up top with no problem. Thanks again for the huge help and I'll let you know how it goes. I do have to ask though, is it common for stand alone kegerators like this to have tower temp problems? I've read just about everything I could find to try to fix my issues (there have been others too - co2 leaks etc) but it just seems they sell these types of kegerators almost knowing there will be tower temp issues. Hopefully this fan fixes mine....along with the psi and flow control faucet you recommended. Your help is MUCH appreciated.

 

[LittleRiver]

... I did kick the psi down a bit based on what you said so hopefully that will help too and I'm going to get the flow control faucet...

Keep in mind that lowering the pressure won't have an immediate effect on the carbonation of the beer, you'll need to give some time for gas to come out of solution. Turn off the C02, or disconnect it from the keg. Bleed off pressure from the keg. Come back in an hour and bleed it again. You may have to do this several times.

I think you'll like the flow control faucet, mine are great.

 

[LLBeanJ]

It doesn't have an auto off but I'll just have to turn it on and off when I want.

Just leave it on 24/7. It should be fine. I keep a fan running constantly in my keezer to keep the air circulating.

I do have to ask though, is it common for stand alone kegerators like this to have tower temp problems?

I would think that it is pretty common. The physics are what they are (cold air sinks and warm air rises) and if there's no mechanism in place to drive cold air up into the tower, then there will be some degree of foaming. At lower carb levels, it may not be much of an issue, but the higher you go on carb, the more pronounced the problem is going to be. I think with all the steps you are taking, you should see a noticeable improvement.

 

[TheHopfather]

You've got some good advice so far. You've basically got 2 things you can do to fix your foaming issue (3 if buy new taps). I'd start with the beverage line as that is the easiest and cheapest to fix. Here is a link to the only line length calculator worth using;

http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

I don't have all of the specifics on your setup but simply changing the PSI you're running a keg at from 14 to 17 PSI says you need 14.5' of line. Longer lines means more resistance, which slows down the pour.

Your second option is to add a fan to the unit, try to blow cold air up into the tower. Ideally the faucet should be as cold as the inside of the fridge when you touch it (or close to it).

Third option is to buy flow control faucets. I'd imagine swapping out your beer lines for a more appropriate length for your PSI will do the trick.

 

[rickswa]

Thanks so much for all the great info and the links. With the tower I got, unfortunately it would actually be easier to do the flow control faucets and then if I still have issues, go back to the original 3” standard tower. The tower cooling kit is coming today so I’ll let you know how it all goes. Thanks again everyone.