Non-Hazy NE IPA?

[Shipdit]

I have a New England IPA recipe that I have brewed many times with great success. I recently made two 5 gallon batches, one dry hopped with 5oz of Galaxy and the other with 4 oz of Citra. Both taste more like American pale ales or IPAs than New Englands (no “juiciness”) and the clarity is perfect (no haziness). What gives? The only thing I can think of is that I used Omega’s Hornindal Kveik yeast due to warmer environmental fermentation temperatures. Thoughts?

 

[heartofgold]

Our club had a presentation on this topic from the Gigayeast founder, Jim Withee, just 10 days ago. There were several takeaways:
1. Production breweries face the same issue
2. Don't blame the yeast; yeast flocs out pretty quickly (days to a few weeks); blaming (or for that matter, crediting) yeast for haziness is a common misperception among even pro brewers.
3. haziness (permanent haze) is from complexes created by prolamines (from the grains) and polyphenols
(mostly from the hops)

Nice presentation on bringing NEIPA's here:
https://www.craftbrewersconference....sentations/Hidden-Secrets-New-England-IPA.pdf

 

[shoreman]

Did you use any adjuncts? Wheat, Rye or Oats? That's would help with the haze. What temp did you ferment hornindal at?

When did you dry hop?

 

[Shipdit]

1# of flaked oats and 1# red wheat per 5 gallons (13# total grain bill); fermented and dry hopped at 75 degrees, and dry hopped one week after brewing (fast fermentation due to 1.5 L starter).

 

[Vale71]

What gives? The only thing I can think of is that I used Omega’s Hornindal Kveik yeast due to warmer environmental fermentation temperatures.

Apply Occam's razor for as long as necessary...

 

[Vale71]

2. Don't blame the yeast; yeast flocs out pretty quickly (days to a few weeks); blaming (or for that matter, crediting) yeast for haziness is a common misperception among even pro brewers.

Funnily enough the only NEIPA I've ever brewed I was hardly able to collect any yeast from the dump port of my conical. What little came out was also very fluid and not even remotely like the thick paste I usually collect using other yeast strains.

If that's not what caused the resulting beer to be hazy as hell then I wonder where all the yeast went for it sure as hell did not come out where it was supposed to come out from...

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

What temps did you dry hop at and was the yeast mostly settled out when dry hopping? Also, what temperature do you serve at?

 

[Shipdit]

What temps did you dry hop at and was the yeast mostly settled out when dry hopping? Also, what temperature do you serve at?

I always use a starter, so my fermentations are typically pretty quick. Yeast was mostly flocculated when I dry hopped, which was at around 70 degrees. I’ve made this recipe dozens of times, and know that it is the dry hopping not the yeast that creates the haze. The only thing that was different this time was the kviek, which is why I wonder if that is the culprit.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

Yeah I have had side-by-side Kviek and 1318 same recipe beers and I really don't care for what Kviek adds in the flavor department. Also, the Kviek version was much clearer. Some people swear by that yeast but I have yet to have a good example and am not in a rush to brew a batch with it.

 

[slayer021175666]

I'd have to disagree about the yeast. I have no experience with the new KILLER yeast but, I purposely use a mid to low floculating yeast for NEIPAs and American Wheats. It DOES give haziness! You said you've made it several times so, ok, but I go 2 lb wheat and 2 lb oats on a 5 gallon NEIPA. This also ups the haziness. Just my 2 cents.

 

[couchsending]

I loath Kviek yeasts personally. If you have good temp control and pitch the right amount of yeast with nutrients and the appropriate O2 a lot of English strains will finish in the same amount of time and you don’t end up with any of the weird mouthfeel or odd aromas from so many Kviek fermentation’s.

The more yeast you leave in suspension the more likely your beer is to clear. You want to create the smallest weight proteins possible to bind with the hop polyphenols to create a more permanent haze that will also leave you with a longer lasting aromatics and hop flavor as you’re keeping it in suspension. High floccing yeasts works great. Don’t even need any wheat or oats.

Sorry for the glamour shot but this beer is just 2Row, dextrin, and a bit of Belgian aromatic. Very flocculent yeast, dry hopping all after fermentation and at colder temps. Was lagered at 30* for 10 days and has been in a can for 2 weeks.

 

[wepeeler]

Hornindal is super flocculant. Even the starter drops surprisingly clear. I've had zero issues with haze, but I dry hop cooler than 70. @couchsending has recommended soft crashing to 60 to drop yeast, then dry hop at that temp. I find DHing for a max of 48 hours is plenty to create a stable haze (evidence has been shown per Scott Janish in his New IPA book and his blog).

This beer has been in the keg for 5 weeks and was in a bottle (bottled directly from the keg) for 1 week. Shipped from CT to FL. Still plenty of haze. (Pic per @DrGMG)

 

[DrGMG]

I love kveik. You just need to know which strain and at what temp to use it. I am also against underpitching them, and I don't push them too hot, just at my garage temp. I use Opshaug a lot and really like it. 1318 is softer of course, and it works really well. I used Ebbergarden once and really liked it too, am brewing today a Celebration Ale clone with it.

 

[DrGMG]

This is with Opshaug, 4 weeks in the keg.

 

[slayer021175666]

Her is mine at 2 weeks 2 days.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Funnily enough the only NEIPA I've ever brewed I was hardly able to collect any yeast from the dump port of my conical. What little came out was also very fluid and not even remotely like the thick paste I usually collect using other yeast strains.

If that's not what caused the resulting beer to be hazy as hell then I wonder where all the yeast went for it sure as hell did not come out where it was supposed to come out from...

I regularly harvest from hazies. Plenty floccs out to harvest. I have also experimented with centrifuging them to see how hazy they remain. Takes little to strip out the yeast, with minimal impact on the haze. As others have said it's a stable haze of very fine protein complexes (which I assume spinning enough in a fuge could also strip out but that wasn't what I was looking for, also worth noting that it diminished some of the character despite minimal impact on haze, not something I intend to do again).

In my experience it's all about a big enough dry hop combined with the right yeast. I have done hazy IPAs with Kveik (namely but not exclusively Voss), but London III is my go to. Everything else exactly the same, if I use the wrong yeast I might get great character but no stable haze. Biotrans additions help with haze and definitely impact character, but right yeast and a single big dry hop post ferment and can still get permanent haze.

 

[Beer666]

No boils generally never clear unless you get 100% attenuation.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Speaking of protein lol

 

[slayer021175666]

Qhrumphf,
Wish I had the words and knowledge to put it like you did.
The yeast DOES matter.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Fwiw I've never had a haze problem using Kveik for hazy IPAs. But I get the most reliable results and better character either from London III or Conan. I tried using Whitbread B, and while the character was great, couldn't keep it hazy more than a week, with nothing else different. Same goes for Chico (sans the great character, good for classics but not right for hazy/NEIPA).

 

[LuukGx]

Might have missed this in the comments, but try dry hopping at high krausen / day two / when the yeast is blowing through the first bit of sugars. I had the same issue you did (although the juiciness was there), and dry hopping at high krausen has made all the difference for me. Still super hazy a month after brewing on my last batch!

 

[slayer021175666]

If the yeast is too floculent, it will pull the haze down as it settles to the bottom. Usually, right at the cold crash. And almost everyone, crashes their beer whether they realize it, or not. Just putting it into the fridge to carbonate it is a cold crash. In my opinion, a low floc yeast is not as apt to drop to the bottom and pull out the hop oils and proteins as it falls. Bam. Hazy!

 

[couchsending]

If the yeast is too floculent, it will pull the haze down as it settles to the bottom. Usually, right at the cold crash. And almost everyone, crashes their beer whether they realize it, or not. Just putting it into the fridge to carbonate it is a cold crash. In my opinion, a low floc yeast is not as apt to drop to the bottom and pull out the hop oils and proteins as it falls. Bam. Hazy!

Nope it won’t... not how it works

Dy hopping at high krausen isn’t critical either and there’s very few of the best commercials brewers of this “style” that even add any dry hops during fermentation.

 

[day_trippr]

Didn't feel like starting a thread with this so I'm gonna drop it right here...

https://vinepair.com/articles/hdhc-ipa-hop-trend/
Cheers!

 

[LuukGx]

Nope it won’t... not how it works

Dy hopping at high krausen isn’t critical either and there’s very few of the best commercials brewers of this “style” that even add any dry hops during fermentation.

It's the main outlier in my tryouts so far, but I'm always open to learn. Could you back this up with some articles so I can up my game?

 

[couchsending]

It's the main outlier in my tryouts so far, but I'm always open to learn. Could you back this up with some articles so I can up my game?

Articles on what? Dry hopping at high krausen?

Do you listen to podcasts? I’d suggest Craft Beer and Brewing podcasts with

Henry Nguyen from Monkish
Matt Tarpey from The Veil
Aslin Brewing
JC Tetreault from Trillium

Just to name a few.

 

[couchsending]

Didn't feel like starting a thread with this so I'm gonna drop it right here...

https://vinepair.com/articles/hdhc-ipa-hop-trend/
Cheers!

Doubt Incognito will ever be available on the Homebrew scale. It’s certainly not cheap @ $510 for 2kg.

I made an all Citra beer with T-90, leaf, cryo, lupomax, American Noble, and Terpenes. It was as saturated a Citra experience as I’ve ever had with little burn and I didn’t even get close to 8#/bbl and OH is claiming nearly twice that.

 

[LuukGx]

Articles on what? Dry hopping at high krausen?

Do you listen to podcasts? I’d suggest Craft Beer and Brewing podcasts with

Henry Nguyen from Monkish
Matt Tarpey from The Veil
Aslin Brewing
JC Tetreault from Trillium

Just to name a few.

Thanks, I'll put them on my list

 

[TBryerton]

Didn't feel like starting a thread with this so I'm gonna drop it right here...

https://vinepair.com/articles/hdhc-ipa-hop-trend/
Cheers!

Personall, I don’t like their HDHC beers anywhere near as much as their normal versions.