No Nonsense Stout

[scaesare]

Well, after 2 weeks in the primary fermenter and a week in a glass secondary, racked this over to a keg this past weekend, and have been gassing it in the fridge.

I followed the recipe in the initial post. So far, I'm rather put-off buy the metallic "twang" as I've seen it described here. It also feels rather thin. Neither of these seem typical with other stouts I've had.

Re-reading this thread, it seems that sorghum characteristically has a bit of a metallic taste. I also saw the candi syrup mentioned as a possible source?

So I'm a little disappointed, because I see several descriptions of this recipe here that seem to indicate that any twang is not very over powering.. so I'm not sure if my batch is different, or perhaps I'm just more sensitive.

I might try again with the following modifications:

1) Use the later suggestion to use more oats (i.e. maybe double the initial 1lb amount)

2) Wet-roast the oats and allow to mellow longer (I only had ~24 hours)

3) Consider substituting some rice syrup for some of the sorghum?



Open to any suggestions...

-sc

 

[igliashon]

I followed the recipe in the initial post. So far, I'm rather put-off buy the metallic "twang" as I've seen it described here. It also feels rather thin. Neither of these seem typical with other stouts I've had.

Re-reading this thread, it seems that sorghum characteristically has a bit of a metallic taste. I also saw the candi syrup mentioned as a possible source?

So I'm a little disappointed, because I see several descriptions of this recipe here that seem to indicate that any twang is not very over powering.. so I'm not sure if my batch is different, or perhaps I'm just more sensitive.

I might try again with the following modifications:

1) Use the later suggestion to use more oats (i.e. maybe double the initial 1lb amount)

2) Wet-roast the oats and allow to mellow longer (I only had ~24 hours)

3) Consider substituting some rice syrup for some of the sorghum?

Open to any suggestions...
-sc

1. It's still young. I bottle my beers and give them at least 3 weeks to carb. If you're drinking it basically straight out of secondary, it's probably too young. Give it a month.

2. What brand of candi syrup did you use? Did you do a 3-gallon batch (as in the original) or did you scale up the recipe to 5 gallons?

3. Did you add the sorghum at the beginning of the boil or the end? What about the candi syrup?

4. Did you do a 60-minute or 90-minute boil, and did you do a full-wort boil or partial + top-off?

5. How much experience do you have in tasting gluten-free beer?

 

[oneillkza]

This is probably not the best recipe to start with if you're new to gluten free brewing. A single-hop IPA is probably a much better option, and will give you a sense of the sorghum "twang" (though the hops tend to compliment it quite well).

When I made this, it turned out fairly well (my wife really liked it), although it did feel a little thin, and the head wasn't quite as impressive as I'd hoped for. However, like you, I dry roasted the oats rather than wet roasting -- you're pretty much guaranteed to get better results (more Maillard reactions = more browning) with wet roasting. I also may have not put enough maltodextrin in?

My main objection may have come from having made the candi syrup myself (using DAP+sugar). It ended up tasting a bit cola like, which if you think about it, makes some sense, since cola contains coffee (roastiness), caramel and phosphoric acid. A friend made a batch using DAP syrup as almost the only fermentable, and, well, I wasn't very impressed (he added vanilla, so it really tasted like hopped cola).

I did use some of what I learned from this batch to make a very nice amber IPA, using just a small amount of syrup for colour and flavour, and more maltodextrin. The head on that came out a lot better, and it had some delicious light caramel notes contrasting with the hops.

For my next stout, I plan on malting and roasting up some quinoa and using that to darken it (with rice/sorghum extract as the base).

This guy tried out various grains, and white quinoa seemed to roast up the darkest: http://aggieotis.blogspot.ca/2008/10/malting-gluten-free-grains.html

 

[scaesare]

http://www.candisyrup.com/products.html

1. It's still young. I bottle my beers and give them at least 3 weeks to carb. If you're drinking it basically straight out of secondary, it's probably too young. Give it a month.

Yeah, I opted to pull it from my current fridge (which has room for two kegs), and swap in another batch and let this one sit a bit. After a week on gas it hsan't changed much.

I will note, however, that of the other batches I and some friends have done, the secondary serves tame harsh tastes a little faster. So, when I tasted from the secondary, it was really 2 full weeks after the primary had finished activity. In addition ot racking over to the secondary, I extracted enough to do a couple of samples... it didn't change much.

So we'll see what age does to it.

2. What brand of candi syrup did you use? Did you do a 3-gallon batch (as in the original) or did you scale up the recipe to 5 gallons?

It appears that "Candi Syrup Inc." is the name of the manufacturer of what I used, the D-180 as the recipe called for: http://www.candisyrup.com/products.html

I did a 3 gal. batch as per the original recipe.

3. Did you add the sorghum at the beginning of the boil or the end? What about the candi syrup?

Sorghum at end (flame-out) and candi syrup at very beginning (60mins remaining), as per recipe.

4. Did you do a 60-minute or 90-minute boil, and did you do a full-wort boil or partial + top-off?

60 min boil. The recipe sisn't specify otherwise, and it calls out 60 mins for timings of te longest ingredients, so I assume that was correct? I did a full boil.

5. How much experience do you have in tasting gluten-free beer?

Only a moderate amount. I have plenty of experience tasting beer though. I've had half a dozen folks taste it, including 2 other folks who brew along with my wife who has the gluten sensitivity. Everybody notices the bitter metallic taste, however most also agree it's got a good "base".

I'm not trying to knock your recipe... on the contrary I appreciate the efforts to get some good GF alternatives devoloped, and your taking the time to respond.

What I don't have is much experience with GF alternative ingredients, so I'm not sure what to expect. Maybe this taste is what you would normally get from these ingredients, and so there's nothing "wrong". But, given the comments in the remainder of the thread, it appears that other folks are sugesting substitutions that could be made to to reduce some of the twang. I'm trying to see if anybody has been successful in doing so.

Thanks.

-sc

 

[scaesare]

This is probably not the best recipe to start with if you're new to gluten free brewing. A single-hop IPA is probably a much better option, and will give you a sense of the sorghum "twang" (though the hops tend to compliment it quite well).

When I made this, it turned out fairly well (my wife really liked it), although it did feel a little thin, and the head wasn't quite as impressive as I'd hoped for. However, like you, I dry roasted the oats rather than wet roasting -- you're pretty much guaranteed to get better results (more Maillard reactions = more browning) with wet roasting. I also may have not put enough maltodextrin in?

My main objection may have come from having made the candi syrup myself (using DAP+sugar). It ended up tasting a bit cola like, which if you think about it, makes some sense, since cola contains coffee (roastiness), caramel and phosphoric acid. A friend made a batch using DAP syrup as almost the only fermentable, and, well, I wasn't very impressed (he added vanilla, so it really tasted like hopped cola).

I did use some of what I learned from this batch to make a very nice amber IPA, using just a small amount of syrup for colour and flavour, and more maltodextrin. The head on that came out a lot better, and it had some delicious light caramel notes contrasting with the hops.

For my next stout, I plan on malting and roasting up some quinoa and using that to darken it (with rice/sorghum extract as the base).

This guy tried out various grains, and white quinoa seemed to roast up the darkest: http://aggieotis.blogspot.ca/2008/10/malting-gluten-free-grains.html

OK, thanks for the feedback, so it sounds like my batch is at least "in the ballpark" of what other folks are producing as well.

So, along with your post, I've seen a few folks talking about alternatives like rice extract. Is this a substitute for sorghum, typically, or candi syrup?

I guess I'm tryin to figure out the interactions. It seems to me that we are substituing oats (or other grains) in the steeping phase to get the flavor of a grain in the wort. Then we are substituting another sugar base (sorghum and/or candi syrup) instead of a malt extract for the yeast to frement. So why choose sorghum, candi syrup, or both? What are the characteristics of them such that we combine both rather than use one over the other? Tradeoffs?

Thanks.

-sc

 

[igliashon]

http://www.candisyrup.com/products.html

Yeah, I opted to pull it from my current fridge (which has room for two kegs), and swap in another batch and let this one sit a bit. After a week on gas it hsan't changed much.

Well, I know nothing about kegging, so perhaps aging it in the keg won't do much.

It appears that "Candi Syrup Inc." is the name of the manufacturer of what I used, the D-180 as the recipe called for.

Okay, good. That's the same stuff I used.

Sorghum at end (flame-out) and candi syrup at very beginning (60mins remaining), as per recipe.

So, I just looked at the recipe posted here and compared it with my notes, and I guess I made some modifications on brew day that I didn't post here. The recipe posted here was a "rough draft", the actual recipe I used is here:
http://beyondbarley.blogspot.com/2012/07/no-nonsense-oatmeal-stout.html

3 lbs of sorghum, not 2, and I did a 90-minute boil, not a 60-minute one. Guess I better edit the first post! Sorry about that, mate! Those are some pretty significant changes.

 

[scaesare]

So, I just looked at the recipe posted here and compared it with my notes, and I guess I made some modifications on brew day that I didn't post here. The recipe posted here was a "rough draft", the actual recipe I used is here:
http://beyondbarley.blogspot.com/2012/07/no-nonsense-oatmeal-stout.html

3 lbs of sorghum, not 2, and I did a 90-minute boil, not a 60-minute one. Guess I better edit the first post! Sorry about that, mate! Those are some pretty significant changes.

Ah, good to know..., and thanks for the link to your blog. I may go ahead and try this again with those modifications.

So using MORE soghum doesn't add more to the metallic taste?

Also, I note that in post #34 of this thread, you said:

I might recommend using more grains than I did. 2 lbs per 3 gallons gave me just a little bit of flavor, I'd up it to at least 1 lb per gallon,

So, that sounds like you ised two pounds of oats for your modified batch, but were recommending three. Yet your original and updated recipes both still call for one lb. Do you have a final amount you ultimately decided upon?

Thanks again.

 

[igliashon]

Yeah, I definitely only used 1 pound. I don't know where I ever got the idea that I used 2, it's not written that way in any of my notes. I suppose it's possible that I did...I mean, I know I used 4 lbs of grain in my RIS, but that was buckwheat and black rice, and I may have thrown some amylase in after steeping due to worries about starchiness. In any case I did a re-brew of NNS with 1.5 lbs of oats, and I'm gonna recommend that if you do use more, you only roast 1 lb super-dark, and just do a light toast on the rest. 1.5 lbs of super-dark-roasted oats gave me a lot of dry starchy burnt toast flavor that was not what I was after. It also left a lot of unfermentables in the beer, my FG was something like 1.020 after 6 weeks in primary, even though I used yeast nutrient and even did a second fermentation with some concentrated cherry juice.

I guess I've got a ways to go on reproducibility....

But in any case, adding more sorghum doesn't seem to add more to the metallic taste. In my experience, higher-gravity brews (around 6%-7% ABV) don't have as much of that metallic taste as lower-gravity brews (4%-5% ABV), even with an almost all-sorghum bill. Can't tell ya why.

Oh, and another tip I've heard but not tried to reduce the metallic taste is to add some DAP to the boil. Apparently something about the FAN it adds does something good for the flavor....

 

[scaesare]

Cool, thanks.. I'll aim for the 1.5lbs with the split roasting darkness you mentioned... and maybe I'll try a little DAP just for good measure.

When I do it again, I'll take notes a gain and report back for the benefit of the group.

Appreciate your reponses... oh, and I has born and raised in Hayward.

-sc

 

[thanantos]

How would you suggest scaling this up for 5 gallons?

I was thinking:
3.3lbs Sorghum
3lbs BRS
3lbs D180

2lbs Quick Oats (1lb roasted dark, 1lb roasted light)

Your thoughts?

 

[igliashon]

I don't know if there's any special trick to scaling up, but if you want to use 50/50 sorghum/BRS, a linear scaling would give:

2.5 lbs sorghum
2.5 lbs BRS
3.3 lbs D180
2.7 lbs quick oats

Your version is higher gravity, closer to 1.07 than the 1.06 of my original, but maybe that's what you want? If so, all I'd say is maybe do more like 2.5 lbs quick oats, with 1.5 lbs dark roasted and 1 lb light roasted.

 

[thanantos]

Thanks for the reply, but my recipe is based more on laziness than a linear scale. Sorghum is packaged in 3.3 lb tubs, BRS in 6 lb and I have 2lb of oatmeal on hand.

I'm OK with being a bit high on gravity if it saves me some time and hassle.

 

[salvar]

@igliashon: I did your version of the recipe that split the sorghum with BRS. It's been about a month and the sorghum twang is amazingly pronounced. Does this mello with time?

I like the idea of a GF stout, the head was solid, body was good. Thanks for all your hard work on this recipe.

 

[igliashon]

Well, the point of this recipe as I originally mentioned (IIRC) is that I recall Guinness having a distinct metallic/sour twang to it, probably from the addition of the soured beer and/or maybe their unusual brewing water. So I figured a stout made with sorghum would achieve a similar twang, and indeed it does. Question: did you brew this from the old recipe that was on here, or the corrected one/the one from my blog? As mentioned before, the recipe I initially posted here was lower gravity than what I ended up brewing, and I've found it to be the case that pretty much any GF beer below 6% has a more pronounced acid bite/twang, even if it's pure rice syrup with no sorghum at all...so if you brewed the old version, I'm afraid that there's not much hope.

 

[salvar]

I brewed the recipe on the site. I didn't know you had a different version on your blog. Speaking of which where can I find your blog (doesn't seem to be in your profile)?

I do remember you mentioning that the recipe had a sour twang that complimented the style well. It certainly isn't terrible by any stretch (my GF SWMBO drank it without complaint - she isn't as fussy as I am). It's just not quite what I was anticipating. Hence, I thought I might have messed something up.

So even pure rice syrup has that same twang below 6%? Ouch. I was really hoping I could just up the rice syrup portion and resolve the issue.

 

[igliashon]

Yeah, I posted a recipe here, then tweaked it before I brewed it, and forgot to post the update (I fixed it recently, though, after I realized the mistake; check the first post again for the update). I'm super-pissed at myself because quite a few people have brewed the wrong recipe and been unhappy with it. Believe it or not, the recipe I actually brewed has more sorghum, and is about 6% ABV; it's still a bit thin-bodied for a stout, but I've yet to have a regular beer-drinker complain about the twang (even the ones that have complained about a twang in my other beers).

But yeah, I think the twang might have something to do with a lack of either dextrins or proteins in the rice and sorghum syrups; my GF beers seem to regularly attenuate over 80%, regardless of the yeast, unless they are of a higher gravity. Also, unless other additions are made, GF beers that use only rice and sorghum typically have abysmal head retention. Some people have reported a reduction in twang by adding FAN (usually DAP) to their brews. I find that keeping the gravity around 6% or higher, and adding some combination of raw honey, maltodextrin, and a protein-rich grain like quinoa, amaranth, or millet, helps to eliminate the twang.

I did brew a really tasty low-gravity cream ale with steeped banana and sweet potato (as well as steeped corn and wild rice), I'm not sure I could replicate it though because it was in the early days of my brewing and my process was very chaotic. Steeping banana and sweet potato would probably do a lot to help the body and reduce the twang, too.

My blog is beyondbarley.blogspot.com; guess I should put it in my sig!

 

[salvar]

Thanks for that info. I am looking forward to brewing the right recipe.

Don't get too mad at yourself. This is like the Wild West of brewing. You never know what you will get exactly. Its a lot of fun.

 

[max42]

Yeah, I posted a recipe here, then tweaked it before I brewed it, and forgot to post the update (I fixed it recently, though, after I realized the mistake; check the first post again for the update). I'm super-pissed at myself because quite a few people have brewed the wrong recipe and been unhappy with it. Believe it or not, the recipe I actually brewed has more sorghum, and is about 6% ABV; it's still a bit thin-bodied for a stout, but I've yet to have a regular beer-drinker complain about the twang (even the ones that have complained about a twang in my other beers).

Quick question. I noticed the revised post recipe states:
1 lb toasted GF instant oats (approx. 25° Lovibond, or about the color of a chocolate brownie) (steeping pre-boil)

Your Blogspot states:
1 lb Home-Toasted Gluten-Free Quick Oats (from Bob's Red Mill), steeped at 150°F for 30 min, then removed

The Recipe submitted to GFHB states:
1 lb Toasted GF Oats (steep at 160 – 180 degrees for 1 hour, stir regularly)

Can you clarify the steeping temp?

thanks and really enjoyed the Blog!

 

[igliashon]

Man, I really gotta keep better notes. At this point I'm not 100% sure what I actually did, but generally when steeping grains these days I go with 30 minutes at ≤150°F, as I'm trying not to gelatinize the starches. That said, an hour at sub-boiling temperature is probably closer to what I would have done in the early days, before I knew much about the chemistry involved. I may have just thrown the oats in the kettle as the water was heating, and then pulled them out close to boiling.

 

[max42]

I'm thinking about brewing this, hopefully it's close to the Deschuttes Obsidian stout. Their Black Butte Porter and stout are definite favorites.
So if you were to make it today what would you do?

 

[scaesare]

Ah, good further discussion, as I plan to give the updated recipe a try this Saturday to see if it reduces the twang I got in the initial 'beta" recipe.

Any pointers on using FAN/DAP? I've not tried before, but if it can help tame it out a little I might try...

Thanks.

-sc

 

[acswarts]

Question are you guys rehydrating the yeast or pitching dry into the Wort? Also Candi Syrup question. What are intervals for adding? I guess do one at the beginning and the other half way in?

 

[igliashon]

I add all the candi syrup at the beginning; I rehydrate the yeast for 15-20 min before pitching.

 

[ChasidicCalvinist]

I have always added candi syrup at the start of the boil, however FWIW candi syrup inc. recommends adding the syrup at flameout.

 

[acswarts]

So are you still steeping oats for 30 mins at 155? Also what's the original water amount and are you topping off to bring to 3 gallons?

 

[slinkman85]

So I have made this batch and at bottling it was like drinking heaven. However, how long did you bottle age this at? I might have saw someone say 6 months, but now I'm second guessing myself. Is the standard 3 weeks good enough?

 

[robbyhicks]

Was gonna give this a shot this weekend, but havnt toasted my oats yet... I think I'll give the updated recipe a shot as is with a couple changes... I am using some Kent folding hops and shooting for 35-40 ibu as swmbo isn't a big hop/bitter fan, only got my hands on 1lb of the d180 syrup the other 1# is d160 dif brand, I'm gonna use Nottingham yeast as I've had real good luck with it...

If I give this another shot using some quinoa... When I toast the quinoa, do I cook it according to package then cook it? Or do I just toast it dry? Really looking forward to brewing this one...

 

[Safa]

Brewed this yesterday in a 1 gal. Wort was nut-brown ale colour at the end though, no idea why. Im thinking either -oats werent dark enough or candi sugar wasn't dark enough (guy at LHBS had no idea what D-180 was and just gave me a pound of dark candi sugar). OG-1.090 :rockin:


Anyway, pitched the yeast without re-hydrating and it was bubbling through my blowoff tube in under an hour. Weird!

 

[igliashon]

Uh oh, you used dark candi sugar instead of D-180 syrup? You are not going to get anything close to a stout, I'm afraid. I made that mistake once, and I will not make it again! Dark candi sugar is nothing like D-180 syrup; it's more like brown sugar than anything.

I recommend ordering online if the LHBS doesn't have it. It is an absolutely essential ingredient for this recipe, accept no substitutes!

 

[Safa]

Damnit! Wish I'd known!