Next brew... water

[OpenSights]

Over the past few months I’ve been saving up a bunch of mystery grain. It started with a free bag of grain for a 5 gallon brown ale. (Someone ordered a basic brown ale and forgot to say extract.) Since then I’ve added truly mystery grain, one small bag definitely has coffee! I haven’t weighed it all out yet, but I plan on my first 10 gallon AG batch. For hops, a buddy gave me 18 oz of cascade and williamette, dried, vacuum sealed and frozen from ‘13 and ‘14. I’m planning on a 60 minute boil randomly adding the fresh hops one at a time in my hop basket every minute or so from 60 minutes.

I’ve been putting off brewing this because of the water I’ll be using. My neighbor has a cabin in the northern lower peninsula of Michigan, about 3.5 hours from home and wants me to winterize it. (I repiped it last spring and winterized it last fall.) The land has been in her family since the 1800’s up on what would be considered a mountain in Michigan and has never been farmed.

The water from the well is amazing! Nothing like well water in mid Michigan! So I plan on bringing back as many old water jugs as I can find, probably about 10 gallons and top off with the normal RO that I use.

This gives me a good opportunity to learn how to test ph and study profiles. I have all additions, 2 ph meters to try, and the book Water. The downside is there is zero cell service, so no internet to research or ask a question, which is likely.

Any tips on downloads regarding water so I have more reference sources?

 

[cyberbackpacker]

...For hops, a buddy gave me 18 oz of cascade and williamette... from ‘13 and ‘14... randomly adding the fresh hops one at a time in my hop basket every minute or so from 60 minutes.

No help on the resources, but I don't know if I would refer to 5 and 6 years old hops as "fresh hops"!!!

 

[OpenSights]

No help on the resources, but I don't know if I would refer to 5 and 6 years old hops as "fresh hops"!!!

I will make a tea with them first, but dried, vacuum sealed and frozen the whole time... I have confidence.

I have vine mostly dried then picked and frozen in ziplock bags from this year that are far more sketchy, but smell and taste good just chewing on them.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Oh yeah, I wouldn't hesitate to use them if they still smell good.. I was just pointing out the "humor" in calling hops that are 5 years old "fresh". Perhaps at this stage saying "homegrown" hops might be a more apt description!

 

[bracconiere]

Since then I’ve added truly mystery grain, one small bag definitely has coffee!

I’ve been putting off brewing this because of the water I’ll be using.

so you're pretty sure a bag has coffee? lol, so a stout? farmhouse brown? the point is 'water'?

 

[OpenSights]

so you're pretty sure a bag has coffee? lol, so a stout? farmhouse brown? the point is 'water'?

Lol! The point is this is the best batch of beer that I’ll ever brew and I’ll have no idea of how to brew it again.

Have time to learn a bit about water.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Over the past few months I’ve been saving up a bunch of mystery grain. It started with a free bag of grain for a 5 gallon brown ale. (Someone ordered a basic brown ale and forgot to say extract.) Since then I’ve added truly mystery grain, one small bag definitely has coffee! I haven’t weighed it all out yet, but I plan on my first 10 gallon AG batch. For hops, a buddy gave me 18 oz of cascade and williamette, dried, vacuum sealed and frozen from ‘13 and ‘14. I’m planning on a 60 minute boil randomly adding the fresh hops one at a time in my hop basket every minute or so from 60 minutes.

I’ve been putting off brewing this because of the water I’ll be using. My neighbor has a cabin in the northern lower peninsula of Michigan, about 3.5 hours from home and wants me to winterize it. (I repiped it last spring and winterized it last fall.) The land has been in her family since the 1800’s up on what would be considered a mountain in Michigan and has never been farmed.

The water from the well is amazing! Nothing like well water in mid Michigan! So I plan on bringing back as many old water jugs as I can find, probably about 10 gallons and top off with the normal RO that I use.

This gives me a good opportunity to learn how to test ph and study profiles. I have all additions, 2 ph meters to try, and the book Water. The downside is there is zero cell service, so no internet to research or ask a question, which is likely.

Any tips on downloads regarding water so I have more reference sources?

Not to be a debbie downer or anything. The concept sounds fun, but is impractical for making a well executed beer.

I would definitely smell those hops before you use them. If they smell like citrus then use em late in the boil. If they smell like cheese throw em out. If they smell like not too much, then just use em for bittering.

Also, using a bag of mystery grain seems cool and all... But who knows how fresh those grains are and whats in em. Are they base malts or specialty malts? Will you have enough enzymes to convert.

In terms of the water. You really don't know the mineral content unless you send it to a lab to get it tested. In general, If the water is very low in hardness/alkalinity it is pretty much good for any styles except dark beers. If the water is higher in alkalinity it would be better suited for beers high in acidity/roasted malts. Its a crapshoot with well water unless you get it tested by a lab.

You can take a sample and get a reading for $40 from Ward Labs. Then you will know what you are dealing with. If you wanna get more advanced you should then dowload a water calculator like Bru'n Water to dial in the desired mash PH and target water profile.

https://www.wardlab.com/product/water-test-kit/

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I've had great success with this PH meter. Most other ones I've dealt with in this price range have been pretty unreliable. I recommend keep some little jars in the freezer, so when you take your mash PH it can be cooled down to room temp for a reading. Do not measure PH at a high temp or you will damage the probe.

https://aperainst.com/ph60-premium-...ceable-probe-and-blacklight-apera-instruments

My water in NYC is pretty soft and I've historically had challenges brewing good stouts as a result. By using Bru'n Water, a little bit of baking soda, and a PH meter I've been better able to dial it in...especially when conducting a 30 min test mash in advance of brew day.

You can do a test mash with 1/2 a gallon of water and scale the grains and minerals down accordingly. If you have a scale that can weigh .01 gram increments it helps. Otherwise mix the minerals in a larger volume of water and then just take half a gallon from there.

In my last test mash for a very roasty beer Bru'n water actually predicted my PH over by .1, so I reduced the baking soda addition slightly on the live batch and nailed it perfectly!

PH targets I like to go for are as follows:

5.4-5.6 for Dark Beers (5.5 is a good target. High PH smooths out the roast
5.3 for most beers
5.2 for saisons

 

[OpenSights]

@Unicorn_Platypus I agree, not a well executed recipe by any means! No idea what style it’ll be close too, but with the specialty it’s going to be on the darker side. The oldest grain was crushed about 3-4 months ago. There is, guessing, about 3-5lbs of specialty grain out of an estimated 20-22lbs, so I do plan on adding some 2 row, just not sure how much yet until I weigh it out.

Hops are definitely going to be tasted in a tea at different boil lengths before use, if they pass muster, toss one into the basket one at a time.

Thanks for the ph levels! I have two meters that I have yet to try. Sadly my LHBS went out of business, so I helped them liquidate.

 

[mongoose33]

Forgive me, but are you out of your mind?

You don't know what grain you have, the hops are probably dicey, and you're worried about the water?

If I were going to all the trouble of using some hoped-to-be terrific water, I wouldn't be using it on a Franken-recipe. If this doesn't turn out well--and the over/under on that is less than 1 in 3--then what's to blame? The water? Hops? Your habit of dribbling in the hops every minute for an hour? The mystery grain? The unknown water chemistry to start?

I'm not even sure there's a learning possibility here. What would you learn? If the beer turned out well, how would you reproduce it? And if it didn't turn out well (IMO, likely), then what would you blame?

And on top of all that, this will be your first 10-gallon all-grain batch?

Forgive me, but are you out of your mind? (Oh, wait, I said that).

 

[OpenSights]

Forgive me, but are you out of your mind?

You don't know what grain you have, the hops are probably dicey, and you're worried about the water?

If I were going to all the trouble of using some hoped-to-be terrific water, I wouldn't be using it on a Franken-recipe. If this doesn't turn out well--and the over/under on that is less than 1 in 3--then what's to blame? The water? Hops? Your habit of dribbling in the hops every minute for an hour? The mystery grain? The unknown water chemistry to start?

I'm not even sure there's a learning possibility here. What would you learn? If the beer turned out well, how would you reproduce it? And if it didn't turn out well (IMO, likely), then what would you blame?

And on top of all that, this will be your first 10-gallon all-grain batch?

Forgive me, but are you out of your mind? (Oh, wait, I said that).

My club is based on learning to brew traditional beer (wine, cider, and mead too of course), but I like to experiment.

Now I know I’ll never recreate this recipe, however, should I just throw the grain out or make beer? I have unknown grain, hops to test, water to test...

If it comes out bad, the most this beer cost is the price of propane, yeast and my time. Propane is cheap for me. One of my club members owns a propane company, so 20#s for a $10 exchange.

Point of this thread, other than an experiment with unknown ingredients and unknown results is to learn about the main ingredient.

I’m hoping to learn about this water as I’ll have access to it for a number of years. Probably the closest to the spring water I grew up drinking.

 

[balrog]

With no absolute knowledge of the grains, I do hope it works out that it coincidentally happens to have enough base grain diastatic power to convert the starches in the mash.

 

[mongoose33]

My club is based on learning to brew traditional beer (wine, cider, and mead too of course), but I like to experiment.

Now I know I’ll never recreate this recipe, however, should I just throw the grain out

Yes. That's my opinion.

or make beer? I have unknown grain, hops to test, water to test...

Exactly. You will "experiment" but there will be zero learning--all you'll know is that a bunch of unknown ingredients produced a certain outcome. And you won't know what effect any of those inputs had. Is it an "experiment" when you can't specifically point to any learning outcome? I'd say it's not an experiment.

If it comes out bad, the most this beer cost is the price of propane, yeast and my time. Propane is cheap for me. One of my club members owns a propane company, so 20#s for a $10 exchange.

And your time. And the opportunity cost of not brewing a good beer (especially with the first-time 10-gallon batch) and instead brewing something from which there is no learning....

Point of this thread, other than an experiment with unknown ingredients and unknown results is to learn about the main ingredient.

But that's my point--you aren't going to be able to learn about it. Besides that, what's the main ingredient? The hops? You're hoping they're good after what, six years? The water? You have unknown other ingredients so whatever the results, is it due to the hops or the grain or the process? The grain? You don't know what it is, so no learning there.

I’m hoping to learn about this water as I’ll have access to it for a number of years. Probably the closest to the spring water I grew up drinking.

I'm fully on board with you learning about whether the water has any value for your brewing.

What I'm pointing out is that you won't learn that. Think about what water calculators/spreadsheets do. They take the amounts of grain, include information about their inherent acidity in brewing, and then correct for minerals and pH and so on.

You don't know what's in the grain, so no water calculator is going to give you accurate information. Oh, maybe you might get lucky, but if learning about the water is the goal (and a laudable one, IMO), then you have to control the other elements of the brew.

You cannot do that. Ergo, what learning will there be? Answer: None.

*************

I reach research methodology. All methodology is about controlling alternative explanations for one's results, whether from experiments, surveys....whatever. There's a term for that--it's called meeting the causal criterion of nonspuriousness. The other two causal criteria are correlation and time order.

The goal generally is to be able to demonstrate a causal relationship--when THIS happens, THAT results, and that result isn't due to some other cause. That is, that the results are nonspurious.

You have multiple causal variables, NONE of which you can specify accurately. What's the AA content of the hops? Water profile? Grain composition? Because of this, there is no way to specify what contributed to which outcomes.

Now, I'm all for doing what makes people happy. If you want to do this, do it. No skin off my nose, and if it makes you happy, great. But you asked for input on this, and my input is that your stated purpose--to experiment, to test the water--isn't possible.

If it were me, and I had a variable I wanted to test, like the water, I'd use an established recipe with good ingredients and only allow the water to vary. Any other approach will likely leave you uncertain as to outcomes and their causes.

I'm all for doing what you want, and you don't need my permission to do this. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you're experimenting. You're not.

 

[9Kegs]

If it were me, and I had a variable I wanted to test, like the water, I'd use an established recipe with good ingredients and only allow the water to vary. Any other approach will likely leave you uncertain as to outcomes and their causes.

+1 on this

 

[IslandLizard]

Forgive me, but are you out of your mind?

You don't know what grain you have, the hops are probably dicey, and you're worried about the water?

If I were going to all the trouble of using some hoped-to-be terrific water, I wouldn't be using it on a Franken-recipe.

Yeah, that water would be the least of your concern.

You can take a sample and get a reading for $40 from Ward Labs. Then you will know what you are dealing with.

That may challenge the current #1 position for the most expensive 10 gallons of water ever used in brewing, he who used Fiji bottled water.

Ward Labs water test:
W-501 BREWERS TEST $27.25
Bicarbonate, Calcium, Carbonate, Chloride, Iron, Magnesium, Nitrate, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sodium, Sulfate, Total Hardness (Lime), Total Alkalinity, Electrical Conductivity, pH, Est. Total Dissolved Solids
Plus the cost of shipping the sample to them.

The stupid kit where they send you a small bottle and a box, cost $42. At least it includes prepaid return shipping.

Although it won't reveal the mineral composition of that "pristine" well water, you could perform a simple alkalinity titration using (further diluted) 10% phosphoric acid, a dropper, a pH meter, and some math. Basically you'd be testing the water's response to acid.

Or just perform a small test mash with a half pound of a good representative sample of your grain mix and measure its mash pH. That also gives you an idea of conversion and taste.

 

[OpenSights]

Good discussion! I’m thankful for the input!

I know it’s not a true learning experience with so many unknowns, but it will help me in learning a little more about water...

Currently I use store bought RO and spring water to balance it out.

 

[Kickass]

This gives me a good opportunity to learn how to test ph and study profiles.

I get where you’re going with this and I don’t seem to be as concerned about your mystery grain and hop quality. I do think that if you want to study water profiles, you need to know the composition of the water. It’s impossible to get a better practical understanding of water if you’re blind to its makeup. Send the sample off, it’s easy then you can go from there, if water is your desired learning object

 

[OpenSights]

Yeah, that water would be the least of your concern.

That may challenge the current #1 position for the most expensive 10 gallons of water ever used in brewing, he who used Fiji bottled water.

Ward Labs water test:
W-501 BREWERS TEST $27.25
Bicarbonate, Calcium, Carbonate, Chloride, Iron, Magnesium, Nitrate, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sodium, Sulfate, Total Hardness (Lime), Total Alkalinity, Electrical Conductivity, pH, Est. Total Dissolved Solids
Plus the cost of shipping the sample to them.

The stupid kit where they send you a small bottle and a box, cost $42. At least it includes prepaid return shipping.

Although it won't reveal the mineral composition of that "pristine" well water, you could perform a simple alkalinity titration using (further diluted) 10% phosphoric acid, a dropper, a pH meter, and some math. Basically you'd be testing the water's response to acid.

Or just perform a small test mash with a half pound of a good representative sample of your grain mix and measure its mash pH. That also gives you an idea of conversion and taste.

Fiji for brewing?! Wow!

Looked up brewer’s Water test, all I see is the w-501 kit for $42. I assume you can send in your own sample, and get an email. I have some bottles from my supply house to send in for hardness to size a softener or iron curtain, what kind or filter(s) you need. They don’t test for everything in the water, just the equipment you need.

I’ll have to call Ward Labs once I have a sample.

I’m a water snob. I drink 1/2-1.5 gallons a day and can tell good water from bad, and by bad, Aquafina tastes like tap water to me.

Cooking, baking for me is instinct. Don’t know any science to it, but brewing is different. I’ve made lots of great beer, some good beer, and beer I’ve dumped. I think I’m getting better by learning every time I brew, but I still think I’m not as educated enough to truly understand all the ingredients and how they mingle when it comes to beer.

 

[SEndorf]

Aside from your dubious recipe (which has already been commented on) you asked for water advice.
Since this cabin water is a potential secondary source for you, rather than spend money at Wards Lab, at least initially find a friend with a pool or hot tub. They will likely have a titrate kit that will allow you to accurately determine alkalinity in PPM. If you have a spa store nearby, they could also do this for you for free. Alkalinity is the primary concern as it determines buffering capacity of your Ph.

Great tasting water does not determine if it's acceptable for brewing.

Currently I use store bought RO and spring water to balance it out.

Not sure what you mean by this. RO is essentially a "blank slate" to add your salt additions determined by any number of brewing water calculators available.

 

[OpenSights]

Aside from your dubious recipe (which has already been commented on) you asked for water advice.
Since this cabin water is a potential secondary source for you, rather than spend money at Wards Lab, at least initially find a friend with a pool or hot tub. They will likely have a titrate kit that will allow you to accurately determine alkalinity in PPM. If you have a spa store nearby, they could also do this for you for free. Alkalinity is the primary concern as it determines buffering capacity of your Ph.

Great tasting water does not determine if it's acceptable for brewing.


Not sure what you mean by this. RO is essentially a "blank slate" to add your salt additions determined by any number of brewing water calculators available.

I’ve been mixing store bought RO and spring water for some time when I brew. A rookie move on the water side, but it seems to work.

My city water is not good for brewing, horribly hard with a ton of iron! As a plumber I’d put in a sediment filter, whole house filter then split to RO and a softener. Use the RO for brewing and adjust, once I learn how to, but at the end of the day.... I don’t want to plumb anymore!

 

[IslandLizard]

Looked up brewer’s Water test, all I see is the w-501 kit for $42.

https://www.wardlab.com/services/water-analysis/
Under:
HOUSEHOLD & COMMERCIAL WATER ANALYSIS
Second option: W501 - BREWERS TEST $27.25
They must have renamed the test codes some time ago, brewer's test used to be called W-6.

You order and pay for the test online, instructions are there. You'll get your ordering code and send them the sample bottle with that code on it.

Now most surface water varies from season to season, or more often, after droughts or heavy rainfall, or in urban areas after snow storms, due to road runoff (salt). The tests are snapshots of that moment, keep that in mind when taking a sample or "extrapolating" into the future.

 

[IslandLizard]

As a plumber I’d put in a sediment filter, whole house filter then split to RO and a softener. Use the RO for brewing and adjust, once I learn how to...

Jeez, an RO system gives you all the brewing water you'd need, and then some.

Not sure what you mean by this. RO is essentially a "blank slate" to add your salt additions determined by any number of brewing water calculators available.

That, exactly! ^

 

[OpenSights]

Haven’t pushed the RO button yet because I know my towns water. To properly condition the water I’ll need a sediment filter, whole house filter, softener/ RO.

I only install quality parts and equipment, so to not stress the RO system, and get my house will cost around $1200-$1700, my cost plus tax, my labor. Something I eventually plan on, but other household improvements need to be done first.

I’ll send in a sample, see what this water comes out as. Last few times I’ve been up there I’ve taken a couple gallons with me.

Makes sense about different of the year, amount of thaw/rain. Heck, I’m not even sure of the depth of well!

 

[IslandLizard]

Haven’t pushed the RO button yet because I know my towns water. To properly condition the water I’ll need a sediment filter, whole house filter, softener/ RO.

I only install quality parts and equipment, so to not stress the RO system, and get my house will cost around $1200-$1700, my cost plus tax, my labor. Something I eventually plan on, but other household improvements need to be done first.

I’ll send in a sample, see what this water comes out as. Last few times I’ve been up there I’ve taken a couple gallons with me.

Makes sense about different of the year, amount of thaw/rain. Heck, I’m not even sure of the depth of well!

[EDITS]
You can treat your municipal water to obtain good drinking/brewing water with a relatively small pre-filter/RO system.

Now when your current municipal water is that bad, unacceptable, annoying, dealing with stains, smell, etc., a regular sediment plus dedicated post filter should remove most iron, manganese, etc., making that water more pleasant for general domestic use. Perhaps an additional softener stage is useful to reduce high calcium/carbonate levels, thus saving your faucets, toilets, and shutoffs in the long run.

Even at $2k that's not a crazy big outlay for a permanent improvement to your domestic water supply, IMO.

Then some of that softened water can be sent through the RO system with a pressure/holding tank for nothing else but consumption/cooking/brewing. Yeah, it's some work.

On the other hand, how many round trips to the cabin would that equate to? Even if you picked up 50-100 gallons each time, it's still a pretty pricey trip, I reckon?

 

[OpenSights]

Very true. Most certainly it won’t be my sole source for water. It’s on a seasonal road, so come this weekend the water will be shut off until sometime in the late spring.

My neighbor is retired and heads up there at least once a month, and would be willing to bring back 10-20 gallons for me.

I also have two weeks for next year up there, so that’s a couple brew days coming up.

Depending on what the water comes out to be I only plan using it for special or competition beers.