Newell's Groundhog Cider (woodchuck amber clone)

[CidahMastah]

Dumb question, when I put in a starting OG of 1.055 and a FG of 1.029, I am getting an ABV of 3.5%. How does this cider have a 7.2% abv?

I am used to taking a OG and a FG for beer to determine ABV, is it different for cider?

Because you are backsweetening. You ferment dry, 1.055 down to 1.000; then you add sweet back in to 1.022 or whatever your tastes dictate.

 

[barhoc11]

Because you are backsweetening. You ferment dry, 1.055 down to 1.000; then you add sweet back in to 1.022 or whatever your tastes dictate.

If you are adding back in juice or whatever to backsweeten, aren't you actually watering/dilluting down the 7.3% abv that you had before you did so?

 

[Greghark]

The amount you dilute by depends on how you devide to backsweeten. If you just use juice you'll dilute it more than adding apple juice concentrate. But you could also use a simple syrup using a small amount of water and sugar/dextrose/sucralose/whatever. You'll dilute things a little but it is easy to calculate what you final alcohol content will be.

 

[CidahMastah]

If you are adding back in juice or whatever to backsweeten, aren't you actually watering/dilluting down the 7.3% abv that you had before you did so?

Yes.

This is why I make my draft cider to about 9% abv, then I dilute (because I use a double sweet unpasteurized cider as I described before). So I end up with a 6-6.5% ish cider depending on how much I add. I have made strong strong ciders before and find that I don't like it like that. Draft cider should be somehting you can drink all day IMO. I think 6% is perfect.

so in short I go about 9%, then about 2/3 hard cider and 1/3 sweet cider to make a 6% draft cider. Your taste buds will dictate how much you need to add though, it varies from batch to batch if I change the juice or the base hard cider.

Using the cider (or even concetrated AJ) vs. sugar will make a superior draft cider.

 

[liteluvr]

Just stumbled onto my first Woodchuck Amber tonight, and want more!
Love the above info... well laid out and easily understood.
Two questions....
1. What is the difference between still and kegged cider in your recipe? I assume still is uncarbonated, and the kegged is carbonated.... but sometimes I assume too much.

2. After racking to the 6.5 gal pail, I would assume I could let it clear for a period of days, re-rack again and add the sorbate and priming sugars, then direct to bottle and cap? I don't have a keg setup, and would rather bottle this into 12 or 20 oz bottles anyway, since that makes it easier to keep the garage fridge full.:rockin:

Also, I'm a brew newbie (brewbie?) with only a couple of batches of beer and wine under my belt, so I'm learning the ropes.

 

[CidahMastah]

Just stumbled onto my first Woodchuck Amber tonight, and want more!
Love the above info... well laid out and easily understood.
Two questions....
1. What is the difference between still and kegged cider in your recipe? I assume still is uncarbonated, and the kegged is carbonated.... but sometimes I assume too much.

still is uncarbonated

2. After racking to the 6.5 gal pail, I would assume I could let it clear for a period of days, re-rack again and add the sorbate and priming sugars, then direct to bottle and cap? I don't have a keg setup, and would rather bottle this into 12 or 20 oz bottles anyway, since that makes it easier to keep the garage fridge full.:rockin:

if you add sugar back into this and bottle the only cider you can make is carbonated dry cider (no residual sugar) unless you pasteurize it like pappers method in the cider forum. Cider will always ferment dry unless it is super alcoholic. So you will add sugar and it may restart (likely) and they you will have bottles of cider blowing up in the refridge, or worse, in your face.

If you want carbed cider with residual sugar you either need to have 1. keg setup and sorbate and sulphite, or 2. patience, safety glasses and willingness to bottle pasteruize when the carb gets to where you like it.

 

[liteluvr]

Thanks for the response.
Looks like at this point in time, it'll be a still cider.
Not keen on flying shrapnel.

 

[CidahMastah]

Thanks for the response.
Looks like at this point in time, it'll be a still cider.
Not keen on flying shrapnel.

you can pasteurize relatively safely. Pappers gets consistent results every time. But some people have had bottles explode etc. I just thought it was safer to do it by kegging so I went for a system because I was more comfortable with that.

Check this out and decide for yourself. Pappers keeps up on the thread to answer questions
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/

 

[liteluvr]

you can pasteurize relatively safely. Pappers gets consistent results every time. But some people have had bottles explode etc. I just thought it was safer to do it by kegging so I went for a system because I was more comfortable with that.

Check this out and decide for yourself. Pappers keeps up on the thread to answer questions
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/

Read almost the entire thread.... definitely feel comfortable pasteurizing using Papper's method. Going to re-read key parts and make sure I have the step by step in my head before I proceed.

 

[nukinfuts29]

Here's a question, and sorry if it has been covered:

I have this going right now. How is woodchuck back sweetening when they bottle? I want to bottle it, carbed, and am thinking about using splenda like with Apfelwein. I just want to maintain the great flavor.

 

[Shaw237]

Thanks for the recipe. Anyone try this recipe with bottles. Is there a way to bottle it carbonated without having glass shards shoot around my basement.

 

[nukinfuts29]

Here's a question, and sorry if it has been covered:

I have this going right now. How is woodchuck back sweetening when they bottle? I want to bottle it, carbed, and am thinking about using splenda like with Apfelwein. I just want to maintain the great flavor.

still looking for an answer ^^

 

[CidahMastah]

still looking for an answer ^^

My understanding is woodchuck is backsweetened and force carbonated. I would assume that yeast is taken out via filtering and that they use preservatives like sorbate and k-meta.

my best results for making a woodchuck styled cider using backsweetening is to use what I call double sweet cider (process below).

1. Take cider that is fermented dry
2. Add 1/4 rounded tsp of sorbate per gallon of finished product.
3. Rack cider into bottling bucket, onto sorbate leaving any yeast behind.
4. add double sweet cider to taste (this is fresh unpasteurized cider that I have let thaw about half way, then I pour off the liquid and leave the ice chunk behind. this results in a very sweet "double sweet" cider to backsweeten with). I usually end up adding about 1/3 double sweet cider to 2/3 hard cider for gravity in the 1.022-26 range.
5. Once you have it tasting the way you want, add 1 crushed campden tablet per finished volume gallon into your keg.
6. Rack in the cider from the bottling bucket into a keg, force carb and give a couple days before you try.

Note: The sulphites will possibly taste funny for about 24hrs, then the flavor will dissipate. If you don't sulphite and only sorbate there is potential for the sorbate to interact with malolactic bacteria causing an unpleasant geranium smell. Sorbate is sometimes attacked by malolactic bacteria. Malolactic bacteria will likely only be present in fresh pressed unpasteurized cider.

 

[diabeastie]

Note: The sulphites will possibly taste funny for about 24hrs, then the flavor will dissipate. If you don't sulphite and only sorbate there is potential for the sorbate to interact with malolactic bacteria causing an unpleasant geranium smell. Sorbate is sometimes attacked by malolactic bacteria. Malolactic bacteria will likely only be present in fresh pressed unpasteurized cider.

Are there any rough guidelines on how long it takes for the malolactic bacteria to start their attack? I have some friends with sulphite sensitivities who love cider and I would love to be able to make them a sulphite free cider.

I will be kegging this and it will most likely be consumed quickly after force carbonating.

Thanks for the help!

 

[nukinfuts29]

My understanding is woodchuck is backsweetened and force carbonated. I would assume that yeast is taken out via filtering and that they use preservatives like sorbate and k-meta.

my best results for making a woodchuck styled cider using backsweetening is to use what I call double sweet cider (process below).

1. Take cider that is fermented dry
2. Add 1/4 rounded tsp of sorbate per gallon of finished product.
3. Rack cider into bottling bucket, onto sorbate leaving any yeast behind.
4. add double sweet cider to taste (this is fresh unpasteurized cider that I have let thaw about half way, then I pour off the liquid and leave the ice chunk behind. this results in a very sweet "double sweet" cider to backsweeten with). I usually end up adding about 1/3 double sweet cider to 2/3 hard cider for gravity in the 1.022-26 range.
5. Once you have it tasting the way you want, add 1 crushed campden tablet per finished volume gallon into your keg.
6. Rack in the cider from the bottling bucket into a keg, force carb and give a couple days before you try.

Note: The sulphites will possibly taste funny for about 24hrs, then the flavor will dissipate. If you don't sulphite and only sorbate there is potential for the sorbate to interact with malolactic bacteria causing an unpleasant geranium smell. Sorbate is sometimes attacked by malolactic bacteria. Malolactic bacteria will likely only be present in fresh pressed unpasteurized cider.

I don't want to keg it

 

[CidahMastah]

Are there any rough guidelines on how long it takes for the malolactic bacteria to start their attack? I have some friends with sulphite sensitivities who love cider and I would love to be able to make them a sulphite free cider.

I will be kegging this and it will most likely be consumed quickly after force carbonating.

Thanks for the help!

you can probably get away with it in a keg, just be careful and don't bottle it. Yeast has a crazy way of fermenting along even if slow. cold crash the cider and try to rack minimal yeast off the bottle (or none) to slow down their chance to start reproducing.

As for the sulphites not really sure what to do about that. THe malo bacteria would happen well within the aging period for a typical cider. ckville has experienced it first hand - geranium smell t the cider.

 

[CidahMastah]

I don't want to keg it

then try reading posts 36 and 38 in this thread. "Bottle carbing" it has already been covered there. You can still bottle cider from a keg (keg carb and then bottle).

 

[nukinfuts29]

I have read those, my question is more specific. I asked how woodchuck is doing it, because the original is a highly carbonated, sweet hard apple cider. I do not want to make it still, and I don't always have time to monitor the bottles on a daily basis before pasteurizing. I doubt that WC is doing it that way.

I would guess that they keg and force carb it, and bottle from there but I'm looking for the actual answer and not my guess. SWMBO is picky about alcohol and loves WC, so this all interests me greatly.

 

[CidahMastah]

I have read those, my question is more specific. I asked how woodchuck is doing it, because the original is a highly carbonated, sweet hard apple cider. I do not want to make it still, and I don't always have time to monitor the bottles on a daily basis before pasteurizing. I doubt that WC is doing it that way.

I would guess that they keg and force carb it, and bottle from there but I'm looking for the actual answer and not my guess. SWMBO is picky about alcohol and loves WC, so this all interests me greatly.

Not sure what else to tell you on this one that the thread hasn't already answered.

Woodchuck is force carbonated - take look at a bottle of the cider; there isn't any yeast in the bottle's bottom from bottle carbonation. Woodchuck uses sulphites and/or sorbate (can't recall which but read the label on the bottle for ingredients and it is listed)

The techniques described by newell and in this thread get you a woodchuck draft cider (the thread is called woodchuck amber clone). If you don't have a kegging system, then you are stuck bottle pasteurizing to get a woodchuck styled cider. Either way gets you to your carbonation needed for a draft cider.

Hope that helps.

 

[nukinfuts29]

>>Woodchuck is force carbonated

thats what i was wondering, guess i missed it. I can keg it, was just curious

 

[lonepalm]

wife was drinking cider all weekend wants to give it a go at home.

 

[BoltsFan704]

Kegged this recipe last weekend. Tastes just like Woodchuck.. wifey loved it. Starting another batch tonight.

 

[Guthrie]

Just out this recipe together but added a little too much sugar for my liking. Is it possible to stop fermentation a little early to get a lower abv?

 

[Guthdog]

Waking up this old thread, but I am duplicating this recipe with unpasteurized sweet cider and SO4 yeast.

My first cider was made with CHEAP store-bought AJ, honey and SO4. I was expecting a lightly sweet cider but it fermented out to about .995 and, alas, tasted like rocket fuel.

Searching the forums, I read that cider takes on oak really well, so I steam sterilized and threw a handful of oak cubes that I picked up from my LHBS and put it back into the beer fridge. It was pretty safe from sampling because it was a little like a kick in the teeth initially, (tasting was a duty, not a privilege). Anyhow, the oak, (and time, I'm sure), really helped and it was quite drinkable after about 6 months. This was helped by a recent trip to Germany where I discovered that I had actually made a pretty good Apfelwein instead of a bad cider.

Fast forward to today where my current batch is bubbling away rather vigorously, (I am going to need a chilling setup some day, too damn hot in the Sacramento valley). I plan to age my dry Apfelwein/cider on toasted oak spirals. Sooooo....

Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the oak aging should take place before or after the cider is back sweetened with the double sweet cider made from freezing, as outlined earlier in the thread?

In general, should aging/conditioning take place at room temperature, or would aging in the keg, in the kegerator, be effective?

Finally, I would describe my desired serving dryness as "barely sweet". I will be force carbing and serving from a kegerator, any thoughts on where my target s.g. should be in that case?

Thanks to all for participating in such a great forum, I've learned a ton.

 

[stujol]

making my second batch of this tonight. Using fresh apple cider instead of concentrate. It is a bit pricey here this year due to the apple crop getting froze out. $7.00 a gallon. First batch turned out well. Every one loved it.

 

[stujol]

wow, the sg of this cider is 1.070. 10% PA may be a little high for a woodchuck clone.

 

[Guthdog]

wow, the sg of this cider is 1.070. 10% PA may be a little high for a woodchuck clone.

Wow, 1.070 without adding sugar? Thats gonna' be hot.

So what's the plan? Are you going to let it ferment out totally dry and use CidahMasta's method of creating double sweet cider to get to your desired consumption s.g.?

I would think that you have an interesting opportunity to use cville's method of cold crashing the cider at your desired sweetness and not having to backsweeten at all, but you'll have to watch it like a hawk to make sure that the yeast doesn't eat all your sugar before you shut it down.

 

[stujol]

I am going to try to shut it down early. I am going to filter first then cold crash. A mini-jet #3 filter is supposed to get most of the yeast. Stopping EC-1118 tho is like trying to stop a freight train once it gets going good. I rechecked the sg today with another hydrometer and it is still 1.070. I am going back for more of this cider for some apple wine.

 

[Guthdog]

Philosophically opposed to K-Meta/K-Sorbate?

I'm planning to backsweeten and age with oak spirals, so I really need a good way to stop further fermentation. However, I read a lot about sourness/off flavors, and the wife has several friends who claim sensitivity to sulfites.

Unfortunately, I am lacking the refrigerator space in which to cold crash 4 or 5 gallons of cider.

 

[stujol]

No I will use kmeta and sorbate but I don't think that will stop a active ferment very fast. That will stop yeast reproduction but the yeast that are present will continue to consume sugar and produce alcohol taking the sg below my target of 1.020.