Newbie question about grain bills

[Abdul Muhamed]

Have you ever just 'experimented" with grains/malts/hops to see what you would get? I've seen many recipes that have very specific ingredients lists and wondered "what if I just put some X grain, some Y malt and some Z hops together? I have only made one batch of brew so far, I have a very limited grain bill at home and every recipe I look up has stuff that I don't have. I know that with wine making, and spirit making, the ingredients are very forgiving and people just mix/match stuff they have to make it. It seems that many instructions about Beer/Stout/Lager making are VERY precise. Is it OK to experiment?

 

[AlexKay]

Absolutely, and 100%!

But do experiment wisely. If you throw everything in the pot willy-nilly, then a month or more later when you have beer, you're going to have no idea what was responsible for the things you like (or don't like.)

Also, taste all along the way. Chew on the individual malts. Chew on the mixed malts that you're about to mash. Taste the wort (before hopping). Taste the samples you take while you're monitoring fermentation. And taste the green beer before you bottle (or keg) it.

(Don't taste hop pellets, Carapils, or oats with hulls. And taste roast malts in small quantities.)

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

Absolutely, and 100%!

But do experiment wisely. If you throw everything in the pot willy-nilly, then a month or more later when you have beer, you're going to have no idea what was responsible for the things you like (or don't like.)

Also, taste all along the way. Chew on the individual malts. Chew on the mixed malts that you're about to mash. Taste the wort (before hopping). Taste the samples you take while you're monitoring fermentation. And taste the green beer before you bottle (or keg) it.

(Don't taste hop pellets, Carapils, or oats with hulls. And taste roast malts in small quantities.)

Thanks. I like dark, rich stout like Guinness. I'm not much for light, fruity "beer". In an inebriated state last fall I decided to make my own and bought
Malt - Briess Chocolate - 1 lb Milled
Malt - German Pilsner - 5 lb
Malt - German Munich - 1 lb
Malt - Weyermann Pale Wheat - 5 lb
Sterling Pellet Hops 4 oz
German Spalt Pellet Hops 1 lb
I also have wheat, 2-row barley, and oat flakes here at home. I thought I'd fool around with some of these to make a rich, dark ale/lager/stout. My first brew I used some Munich malt, 2-row barley, and chocolate malt with some Sterling hops and made a drinkable dark Stout. I though about adding some oatmeal and wheat to maybe add some vanilla/sweet flavor to it...

 

[RM-MN]

I've seen many recipes that have very specific ingredients lists and wondered "what if I just put some X grain, some Y malt and some Z hops together?

What you are describing is how new recipes get developed but....you can make beer that doesn't taste very good doing that too. Find a recipe and make small changes until you get to a beer you really like.

I often look at the recipes in the database here. These are tested and modified a bit sometimes. While you may not have exactly what is in the recipe, a small change can be good. For instance I learned that I like a pale ale or and IPA but sometimes I would like it a little sweeter so I add half a pound of Crystal 10 or Crystal 20. Sometimes I like the flavor of Crystal 120. It's hard to call that a pale ale because it is no longer pale but a light brown but I'm not brewing competition so what I like is what I like.

The recipe database is here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/#homebrewtalk-com-recipe-database.54
You will also find it in the black banner at the top of each page. There are a huge number of recipes to brew or modify.

 

[worlddivides]

A lot of us still do that. It's one of the reasons for SMaSH beers. You see a new hop or a new base malt and want to see what it tastes like, so you use it on its own. Or maybe you're not sure how a grain will taste in a mix, so you add it at the recommended percentage. Or sometimes beyond the recommended percentage, which might be a success or a failure. Like RM-MN, I like crystal malts, so I might put Crystal 120 in a pale or IPA, or much more likely in a brown ale or stout. Might make something that goes heavy on crystal malts this time and another time have zero crystal malts. Never tried this grain before, but I hear good things about it, so let's try it in this new brew.

Just keep in mind that if you do use a grain beyond its recommended percentage or in a style that's very different, you might not necessarily be pleased with the result. That can also be part of the learning experience.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

A lot of us still do that. It's one of the reasons for SMaSH beers. You see a new hop or a new base malt and want to see what it tastes like, so you use it on its own. Or maybe you're not sure how a grain will taste in a mix, so you add it at the recommended percentage. Or sometimes beyond the recommended percentage, which might be a success or a failure. Like RM-MN, I like crystal malts, so I might put Crystal 120 in a pale or IPA, or much more likely in a brown ale or stout. Might make something that goes heavy on crystal malts this time and another time have zero crystal malts. Never tried this grain before, but I hear good things about it, so let's try it in this new brew.

Just keep in mind that if you do use a grain beyond its recommended percentage or in a style that's very different, you might not necessarily be pleased with the result. That can also be part of the learning experience.

Thanks. Seems crystal malts are very popular. I guess I should research the varieties and try some. When I first tried to make a beer, I was overwhelmed by the recipes that I found. 6-7 ingredients, measure this exactly, put this in precisely at this time, use a nitrogen tank and tap, etc. Seemed like the "up-front" investment was very expensive. But I've since made my first batch using only a few grains/malts and hops that I already had. It turned out a bit bitter (I think I used too much hops for the small amount I made), but overall it was enjoyable. I'll read through some recipes to find one using the grains I have and give it another try. I never was a "beer connoisseur" so unless I really screw up I'm sure I'll drink it.

 

[Shenanigans]

Thanks. I like dark, rich stout like Guinness. I'm not much for light, fruity "beer". In an inebriated state last fall I decided to make my own and bought
Malt - Briess Chocolate - 1 lb Milled
Malt - German Pilsner - 5 lb
Malt - German Munich - 1 lb
Malt - Weyermann Pale Wheat - 5 lb
Sterling Pellet Hops 4 oz
German Spalt Pellet Hops 1 lb
I also have wheat, 2-row barley, and oat flakes here at home. I thought I'd fool around with some of these to make a rich, dark ale/lager/stout. My first brew I used some Munich malt, 2-row barley, and chocolate malt with some Sterling hops and made a drinkable dark Stout. I though about adding some oatmeal and wheat to maybe add some vanilla/sweet flavor to it...

Not sure how much you have left over and what size system you have but I think with those malts you can make a nice 2 or 3 gallon batch of wheat porter.
Use up that milled chocolate malt before it gets too old; un-milled would keep for multiple years if stored properly.
Ideally some crystal 40 and black malt would also be required but you could brew it without first and then add those for the next brew to get a feel for what they add.
What yeast do you have? Classic dry yeasts like US-05, Nottingham or S-04 would work.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

Not sure how much you have left over and what size system you have but I think with those malts you can make a nice 2 or 3 gallon batch of wheat porter.
Use up that milled chocolate malt before it gets too old; un-milled would keep for multiple years if stored properly.
Ideally some crystal 40 and black malt would also be required but you could brew it without first and then add those for the next brew to get a feel for what they add.
What yeast do you have? Classic dry yeasts like US-05, Nottingham or S-04 would work.

I only have 0.5lbs of milled chocolate malt left, I used about a half pound for my first attempt at stout. I have S O4 yeast for brewing, although I have a bunch of other yeasts for wines and sour mash like EC 1118, and various champagne yeasts. I was going to order some crystal malt online, but the price/lb is 10 times as high as if I bought it from the shop. I can get it for $2/lb if I drive to the local brew shop but it's $12-$20 online. Even Amazon which has free shipping for Prime customers, has over-inflated the price to $12 with free shipping.
I have a 6-gallon pail for primary ferment and 30 11.2 oz bottles. That's a little over 2.6 gallons.

Newbie question: What is the difference between "stout" and "porter"? It seems in brewing, terms are not defined in a hard/fast way and people often use terms interchangeably. I spent a confusing afternoon once trying to grasp the difference between beer, ale, lager, and stout.

 

[RM-MN]

Take a look at the grain prices at Ritebrew. Less than $2/lb in one pound increments. Discount for bigger orders too.

www.ritebrew.com

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

Thx, but like other online shops, once I get to checkout, they add $9 to my $2 order so it still isn't a good deal. If You buy 40 lbs of grain, etc. you're online order is ok, but to order 1 or 2 lbs of stuff is NOT a good deal. I have a life-rule: NEVER pay more for shipping than your product is worth. $2 product +$8 shipping...Nope.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Newbie question: What is the difference between "stout" and "porter"? It seems in brewing, terms are not defined in a hard/fast way and people often use terms interchangeably. I spent a confusing afternoon once trying to grasp the difference between beer, ale, lager, and stout.

To be honest, not a whole lot. My opinion is that STOUT leans in to the (unmalted) roast barley for most of it's color, frequently alongside chocolate malt. PORTERS on the other hand, tend to use brown malt, chocolate malt, and just a little bit of black malt (personally, I think black malt used at more than 3% of the grist tastes awful).

That 1/2 pound of milled chocolate malt from last fall is probably pretty stale by now, sadly.

Where are you located? You might get some good shopping suggestions for better pricing...

 

[mac_1103]

like other online shops, once I get to checkout, they add $9 to my $2 order so it still isn't a good deal.

Well sure, but you could order a couple lbs of a couple of different malts, a couple of packs of a couple of different hops, and a couple of packs of a couple of different yeasts and the shipping probably would still be $9. Or maybe only $4 if you spend $50 total.

 

[MaxStout]

Thx, but like other online shops, once I get to checkout, they add $9 to my $2 order so it still isn't a good deal. If You buy 40 lbs of grain, etc. you're online order is ok, but to order 1 or 2 lbs of stuff is NOT a good deal. I have a life-rule: NEVER pay more for shipping than your product is worth. $2 product +$8 shipping...Nope.

Just buying a pound or two is going to kill you in shipping. Maybe order some other things you'll need for the next brew or two? Or perhaps there's another home brewer near you who could share an order. Economy of scale.

A lot of online stores offer more than one shipping option, so you can compare costs. Ritebrew and Brew Hardware do this. Add the goods you need into the cart and calculate shipping.

Another option is to ask the head brewer at a nearby craft brewery if they would let you buy a sack of base malt in their next shipment.

 

[worlddivides]

Newbie question: What is the difference between "stout" and "porter"? It seems in brewing, terms are not defined in a hard/fast way and people often use terms interchangeably. I spent a confusing afternoon once trying to grasp the difference between beer, ale, lager, and stout.

For beer, ale, and lager, the answer is very straightforward, but for the difference between stout and porter, it's a bit more complicated.

Both ales and lagers are beers. Whether a beer is an ale or a lager depends on the type of yeast it's fermented with. Lager yeasts (often called "bottom-fermenting yeasts") are mainly fermented at colder temperatures, primarily around 50F, while ale yeasts (often called "top-fermenting yeasts") are mainly fermented at warmer temperatures, primarily around 70F. Stouts are specifically a type of ale. You can find dark lagers too such as schwarzbiers, dunkels, and bocks.

Originally "stout porter" was a style of beer with "stout" meaning "high in alcohol" and "porter" being the style name because it was popular among the porters in London, hence the name. Over time, though, "stout" stopped being used to mean "strong in alcohol" but was used for dark ales. Nowadays the difference between a stout and a porter is murky, but the main difference is that stouts use unmalted roasted barley, while porters use malted roasted barley. This makes stouts have a more roasty coffee-like taste, while porters are lighter bodied with more of a choclatey taste. That's generally the difference, but there is a lot of overlap due to the history.

 

[hottpeper13]

When I started brewing I did the kits from different home brew stores. This helped me learn what the ingredients tasted like.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

I have a brew supply shop about 40 min. from me, I think that I'll try to get up there this week. They have their prices listed online and like I said, the grains/malts are very reasonable. I could just buy a bunch of stuff online and get free/reduced shipping, but being very new to brewing, I may end up with a bunch of stuff I won't use.

To the average American brew drinker, we call almost anything "beer". Budweiser, Miller, Coors, etc. Some companies try to differentiate, one of my favorite domestic brews was Coors Extra Gold LAGER which they sadly quit making. Yuengling also calls theirs LAGER. Pabst and Busch both choose to call their lagers "beer"

As for grains or malted grains going bad quickly, I've seen some people say they don't keep their more than a month or two, while others say stored in a cool, dry, airtight container, they last years. I tasted my chocolate malted barley last night and it still has it's rich flavor. I'd say it's like coffee. Some people grind theirs every day to get fresh cup of coffee while others buy it in a can which was ground by a factory months before.

 

[hottpeper13]

I just got a 55 lb sac of Munich malt. Not wanting to waste or sell some I looked up how long it would last in a vacuum sealed bag and 8 years was the lowest number, one thread said 25 years. I use munich instead of crystal malts for a lot of recipes so I think it will be gone in 8 years. A vacuum sealer is your best friend if you want to save on ingredients.

 

[InspectorJon]

Unmilled grain will last years. You might want to freeze it for a day or two to kill any bugs if you plan to keep it a long time. Milled grain is said to deteriorate much faster. Opinions as to how long it will last vary greatly.

Opinions about many beer subjects vary greatly and are often strongly held. It makes for fun debate, if folks remain civil. A good example might be “what is the difference between stout and porter?” That question has sparked many heated debates. I have heard it said that porter tends to be sweeter and likely to have more dark crystal malt and less roasted malt, but that’s just a rumor. Probably a baseless rumor at that. I don’t know about standard porter, but I see Baltic Porter is often brewed with lager yeast.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

I just got a 55 lb sac of Munich malt. Not wanting to waste or sell some I looked up how long it would last in a vacuum sealed bag and 8 years was the lowest number, one thread said 25 years. I use munich instead of crystal malts for a lot of recipes so I think it will be gone in 8 years. A vacuum sealer is your best friend if you want to save on ingredients.

Yeah, I agree. I have a vacuum sealer and it more than paid for itself in buying bulk and vacuum sealing into smaller bags. I got a 12lb ham on sale for $1/lb last week, sliced it into lunchmeat and vacuum sealed them into 1lb bags. To buy ham lunchmeat in my local store would cost $9/lb.~!
I don't believe unmalted grain goes bad if stored in cool, dry, dark location. Malted grains may lose some flavor but as I mentioned above, I tasted mine yesterday and it tasted the same as it did 6 months ago...The enemy to flavor is light, oxygen, and humidity. If you control for them, your good. They once put some 2,000 year old wheat berries found in an Egyptian tomb into soil, and had germination!

 

[hungupdown]

Well sure, but you could order a couple lbs of a couple of different malts, a couple of packs of a couple of different hops, and a couple of packs of a couple of different yeasts and the shipping probably would still be $9. Or maybe only $4 if you spend $50 total.

In the Scottish Highlands, we have the opposite. There's few stores who will deliver here at all. Of those that will, their normal free delivery over £xx doesn't apply, and if your order goes over 13kg, you're hit with double or triple the shipping. So 25kg sacks are out!
Annoying, as I live just down the road from Bairds maltings who supply many of the distilleries (in bulk) but not the public.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

I'm old enough to remember when online shopping was a new idea. In the 1990s, companies saw an opportunity to expand their customer base. They often waived shipping costs or dropped the price of their item to cover shipping costs. I have one of the first eBay accounts. Back then if you bought something, you had to send a personal check or money order by snail mail to the seller, who held it for 3 days to make sure it cleared, then they shipped your item. The whole process often took several weeks.

 

[Happy Tails Brewing]

I started with Kits. You can order from almost all the sites online or at your local HBS. The best one tells you exactly what is in them. Maltster, and type of malt, hops, and recommended yeast. This allows you to start with a group of ingredients that make good beer, and you get to dump everything in and have nothing left over to try and do something with. When your beer doesn't turn out, and at times it won’t. You will know it's somewhere in the process and not the recipe. Once you have your process down and know more about the malts and the flavor they bring. The next step is to just make stuff up, but if you go down that path too early you may struggle with subpar beer, you are not sure if it is your process, or recipe or water.

Most important is to do what you want. That is what this hobby is about, but that is my two cents on what I would recommend.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

So, after going to the brew store today, this is what I have:

2# Warminster Maris Otter Malt
2#Crisp Brown Malt -
2# Weyermann® CARAMUNICH® Type 2
0.6 lb Milled Malt - Briess Chocolate
Malt - German Pilsner
5 lb Malt - German Munich
5 lb Malt - Weyermann Pale Wheat
Sterling Pellet Hops 4 oz
German Spalt Pellet Hops 1 lb
wheat berries, 2-row barley, and oat flakes

I'm going to look through recipes tonight and see what I can make with what I have.

 

[hottpeper13]

Awesome inventory! What I like to do when designing a recipe is to do it around the yeast i'm using.

 

[worlddivides]

With just the grains you bought, you could make some German lagers, some British ales (pale ales, stouts, and a few others), and some American ales. The two hops you got are Spalt, which is a German noble hop primarily used in lagers, and Sterling, an American take on noble hops. I could see using the Sterling in a pale ale or as the bittering hop in a stout, though, so there are a ton of beers you could make with those other than the lagers people would tend to think of.

A pretty big selection to pull from for a pretty wide variety of styles.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

With just the grains you bought, you could make some German lagers, some British ales (pale ales, stouts, and a few others), and some American ales. The two hops you got are Spalt, which is a German noble hop primarily used in lagers, and Sterling, an American take on noble hops. I could see using the Sterling in a pale ale or as the bittering hop in a stout, though, so there are a ton of beers you could make with those other than the lagers people would tend to think of.

A pretty big selection to pull from for a pretty wide variety of styles.

Thanks. I find the choice of yeast and hops the most confusing for me. I purchased Safale S-04 last fall and have 5 pkgs in my fridge along with my wine and sour mash yeasts, So I'm going to stick with a recipe that can best utilize the S 04.
I've been looking at some german lager recipes, but I've never tasted it before so won't know how far off mine would be. I guess If I like it, that's all that matters.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

Awesome inventory! What I like to do when designing a recipe is to do it around the yeast i'm using.

I only have S-04 available for now...

 

[An Ankoù]

My advice is to keep it as simple as possible. What's the point in adding nuanced malts if you're going to overwhelm it with something, well, overwhelming. Perhaps instead of asking "what can I make out of this lot? it might be better to ask what you want to achieve and use the ingredients accordingly.
Having said that, my house stout came as the result of a user-upper.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

I tasted all of my malts today, and took notes. I'm NO expert at descriptions of malts, but here is what I came up with:
Maris Otter: toasted bread with slight malt flavor. Probably good for the "foundation" malt in a recipe (largest percentage)
Crisp Brown malt: Toasted bread with a little coffee flavor
Briess Chocolate: Very strong malt/bitterness, use sparingly I used too much of it in my first attempt at a stout and it was overpowering.
German Pilsner: Very "plain grain" flavor. Not much sweetness...a bit "dirty" May be good as "foundation" malt ( largest percentage)
German Munich malt: My favorite. sweet molasses and malt. Use as a flavor enhancer
Weyermann Pale Wheat: Very plain, grain flavor. No sweet or malt noted. Probably good as a "foundation" malt (largest percentage)

I'm having a hard time finding a variety of brew using what I have on hand. I've been considering a Dunkelweizen, or a modified Irish Stout based on what I have. I was considering a 2.5 gallon recipe based on how much grain I actually have and the fact that I only have 30 bottles. I agree that I should keep it "simple" with maybe 3 different malts but most recipes I look up have 4-5 different malts. I'm open to any style...so Ideas please?

 

[Happy Tails Brewing]

If you’re not using brewing software, I would recommend it. I use Brewfather, and Brewers Freind is similar. They both have a free version, so you can test at no cost, and if you find it useful, you can pay the fee later for additional features. This will allow you to see OG, FG, ABV, SRM, IBU, among other things. This is great to make tweaks to your recipe and get an idea of the change to the final product. The numbers will change as you add change malts, hops, and yeast.