Does the ppm produced by a particular flow rate depend upon the batch size? For instance, will a 2.5 gallon batch take only 30 seconds to reach 8ppm?
New Williams O2 regulator
- Thread starter FlyDoctor
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Does the ppm produced by a particular flow rate depend upon the batch size? For instance, will a 2.5 gallon batch take only 30 seconds to reach 8ppm?
Bigscience
Well-Known Member
Batch size would effect the amount of time to Oxygenate. I do 30 seconds for a 2L starter and 3 min for 5.5 gallons. Fermenter geometry and temp as well as gravity would also play a role in DO ppms.
As for seeing the bubbles, I can see some at the top but not as crazy as I've heard others describe. I use a want so I can hold it up against the side of the carboy as well.
I'm not sure of the manufacturer of the flow meter. It looks like 'something'meter Instrument Corporation model O-16. I don't have it in front of me, just a picture.
As for accuracy, I work in a lab and will try to check out the displacement with a graduated cylinder or maybe just see if my facilities guys can check it out against one of their NIST traceable flow meters.
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
As for seeing the bubbles, I can see some at the top but not as crazy as I've heard others describe. I use a want so I can hold it up against the side of the carboy as well.
I'm not sure of the manufacturer of the flow meter. It looks like 'something'meter Instrument Corporation model O-16. I don't have it in front of me, just a picture.
As for accuracy, I work in a lab and will try to check out the displacement with a graduated cylinder or maybe just see if my facilities guys can check it out against one of their NIST traceable flow meters.
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
jprank2
Member
What is your flow rate when you do 3 min? What ppm number are you targeting? 8, 10,... 15?
When you do the starter, do you then forgo the stir plate?
I'm very interested to see what kind of flow you're actually getting and even what kind of DO levels you're getting with your setup.
The Yeast book by Chris White shows results of a study of various breweries and what kind of Dissolved Oxygen (DO) levels they were getting from various flow rates. What I took away from the data was that there is a lot of unpredictability between setups in how much DO is achieved from a particular flow rate and volume. Maybe it's more predictable on the Homebrew (1-15 Gallon) scale. It'd be interesting to see results from a study. I might email White Labs about this.
jprank2
Member
Bigscience
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I thought I'd included flow rate. I'm usually at 1L/min. My current flowmeter is a 0-16L/min so I'm at the bottom of the range. An infant O2 meter would be better as they have a smaller range.
Here is the data I've collected from my oxygenation sessions. All flow rates were at 1L/min, volumes were 20.4L to 20.6L and the temps were from 19.5C to 21.6C. I have more data in my notebook at home but this is what I have with me. I'll try to update with more when I get a chance. Based on this data, you need 2 minutes 54 seconds@1L/min to achieve 12ppm.
Sec DO
60 3.44
90 6.95
120 8.5
120 8.74
180 11.97
There are a couple of interesting things to note here:
The initial post boil DO levels ranged from 0.8 to a high of 1.18 ppm. I'm not sure if this means that my meter is not calibrating correctly (I'll calibrate in air with a pressure adjustment right before use), that the sample is taking in O2 from the air during measurement (small volume with a larger surface area) or that I'm getting some O2 pickup during my whirlpool.
Sampling technic also brings up a issue with the reproducibility in some of the published data. I'm not sure how much it would affect the DO levels or not but I was concerned that sucking up a sample could actually cause some of the DO to come out of solution. I'll put a serological pipette in the wort, let it fill up and then put my finger over the top to pull out the sample.
Another potential source of variability could be pressure. I noticed on my flow meter, it says it was calibrated at 50 psig. (these are intended for a house gas system) Now on my regulator, the gauge I have doesn't show pressure but flow. I'd never thought much about it until now but I should really pick a flow and always set my regulator to it each time.
Here is the data I've collected from my oxygenation sessions. All flow rates were at 1L/min, volumes were 20.4L to 20.6L and the temps were from 19.5C to 21.6C. I have more data in my notebook at home but this is what I have with me. I'll try to update with more when I get a chance. Based on this data, you need 2 minutes 54 seconds@1L/min to achieve 12ppm.
Sec DO
60 3.44
90 6.95
120 8.5
120 8.74
180 11.97
There are a couple of interesting things to note here:
The initial post boil DO levels ranged from 0.8 to a high of 1.18 ppm. I'm not sure if this means that my meter is not calibrating correctly (I'll calibrate in air with a pressure adjustment right before use), that the sample is taking in O2 from the air during measurement (small volume with a larger surface area) or that I'm getting some O2 pickup during my whirlpool.
Sampling technic also brings up a issue with the reproducibility in some of the published data. I'm not sure how much it would affect the DO levels or not but I was concerned that sucking up a sample could actually cause some of the DO to come out of solution. I'll put a serological pipette in the wort, let it fill up and then put my finger over the top to pull out the sample.
Another potential source of variability could be pressure. I noticed on my flow meter, it says it was calibrated at 50 psig. (these are intended for a house gas system) Now on my regulator, the gauge I have doesn't show pressure but flow. I'd never thought much about it until now but I should really pick a flow and always set my regulator to it each time.
That was a great read, thank you! I do wish there existed an O2 ppm calculator that combined variables like flow rate, temperature, batch size, wort gravity, time, and size of stone. That would be excellent. Anyone smarter than me out there with the knowledge to do this?
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Home Brew mobile app
Bigscience
Well-Known Member
I've talked to one of our black belts at work and there is a way to come up with this 'unified theory' of oxygenation and we mapped out some of what it would take and it ends up being a lot of data. I was looking to actually do the work but would eliminate some of the parameters to make it a little easier. Time, Temp and Concentration would be variable while flow, stone and volume would be constant.
Hopefully this would get us close enough that we could then be able to supply some additional constants for the other parameters. In reality there are so many variable we can never get spot on. Personally I'd be happy if I could get +/-0.5ppm and totally accept +/-1ppm out of a formula.
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Hopefully this would get us close enough that we could then be able to supply some additional constants for the other parameters. In reality there are so many variable we can never get spot on. Personally I'd be happy if I could get +/-0.5ppm and totally accept +/-1ppm out of a formula.
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
That sounds fantastic! I really look forward to that. Just one question: with volume being a constant (I assume set at five gallons), could one simply divide the results by two if doing a 2.5 gallon batch?
Bigscience
Well-Known Member
So the Design Expert software came up with this data as being required. I tried to hit typical values for temp/concentration and I'd set it up for a 5 gallon batch. After something is in place, I could then test it out on a smaller/larger/stronger batch to see how well it works out. Now I just need to find the time to do the work. I may even hit up a local brewery to score the wort, in the name of science.
Factor 1 Factor 2 Factor 3 Factor 4 Response 1
Std Run A:Time B:Temp C:Conc D:FLow Rate Do
seconds Deg F Plato L/min ppm
20 1 90 65 14 1
16 2 120 75 16 1.5
11 3 60 75 12 1.5
1 4 60 55 12 0.5
14 5 120 55 16 1.5
12 6 120 75 12 1.5
2 7 120 55 12 0.5
6 8 120 55 16 0.5
15 9 60 75 16 1.5
19 10 90 65 14 1
4 11 120 75 12 0.5
9 12 60 55 12 1.5
18 13 90 65 14 1
13 14 60 55 16 1.5
5 15 60 55 16 0.5
17 16 90 65 14 1
10 17 120 55 12 1.5
8 18 120 75 16 0.5
7 19 60 75 16 0.5
3 20 60 75 12 0.5
Factor 1 Factor 2 Factor 3 Factor 4 Response 1
Std Run A:Time B:Temp C:Conc D:FLow Rate Do
seconds Deg F Plato L/min ppm
20 1 90 65 14 1
16 2 120 75 16 1.5
11 3 60 75 12 1.5
1 4 60 55 12 0.5
14 5 120 55 16 1.5
12 6 120 75 12 1.5
2 7 120 55 12 0.5
6 8 120 55 16 0.5
15 9 60 75 16 1.5
19 10 90 65 14 1
4 11 120 75 12 0.5
9 12 60 55 12 1.5
18 13 90 65 14 1
13 14 60 55 16 1.5
5 15 60 55 16 0.5
17 16 90 65 14 1
10 17 120 55 12 1.5
8 18 120 75 16 0.5
7 19 60 75 16 0.5
3 20 60 75 12 0.5
jprank2
Member
Wow, impressive work!
I am surprised the DO levels between White's book and your measurements are so far off. It'd be good to find out what kind of flow rate you're using as compared to what you're setting. It might be useful to get a table of measured flow rate vs. flow rate setting. Also, a measure of the variance of flow rate when you set it to 1L/m after resetting it to 0 for N trials.
I am surprised the DO levels between White's book and your measurements are so far off. It'd be good to find out what kind of flow rate you're using as compared to what you're setting. It might be useful to get a table of measured flow rate vs. flow rate setting. Also, a measure of the variance of flow rate when you set it to 1L/m after resetting it to 0 for N trials.
Hey guys, for those of you that have the red Williams Brewing CGA 540 O2 regulator, how are you getting it to seal with the tank? Just metal-on-metal? I've been searching around this morning for a gasket, thinking it'd be an easy part to find, but not having any luck.
Is there no such thing, or is Google failing me?
Is there no such thing, or is Google failing me?
Roadie
Well-Known Member
I just use tape on the threads and don't have any issue with leaks.
Almost Famous Brewing Company
Hmm. So on mine, when I tighten the threads (relatively snugly with a wrench) there is almost 1/4" of "play" still that I can slide the regulator towards and away from the tank... The regulator just dangles there loosely at that point. Even if I wrapped the threads, the O2 would just blast out between the regulator's stem and the fitting.
Can we pretend I didn't ask this question? 
I just hit the O2 valve threads with a wire brush and then wrapped it with teflon tape for some lubricant and it seated fully this time. What felt "relatively snugly" on the nut before wasn't even close. I haven't even been drinking today.... Good time to start though.
I just hit the O2 valve threads with a wire brush and then wrapped it with teflon tape for some lubricant and it seated fully this time. What felt "relatively snugly" on the nut before wasn't even close. I haven't even been drinking today.... Good time to start though.
Roadie
Well-Known Member
Glad you got it figured out.
Almost Famous Brewing Company
Almost Famous Brewing Company
Similar threads
