New to winemaking

[slice]

I've been doing some research and plan to start making my own wine. I have a couple questions. My cousin currently makes wine and he thinks 2-3 lbs of sugar per gallon is too much (making it from juice). He says it will be be too sweet. If the sugar is going to turn into alcohol does it still sweeten the wine or does the fermentation take away it's ability to sweeten it?

Also are campden tablets necessary?

Thanks in advance for your answers. I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions to come once started

 

[Blacksmith1]

Campden isn't needed on the primary ferment because there is nothing to compete with the yeast in store bought juice. As for the sugar, I would shoot for a 1.100 on your hydrometer. If you don't have one, get one.

 

[Seamonkey84]

Definitely get a hydrometer, only way to trouble shoot or know when it’s done. Most store bought juice will be in the 1.050 range, grape juice like welches is 1.060. If you add two pounds per gallon (one pound in a gallon adds ~.045 points) you’ll be about 1.140-1.150, Exceeding the alcohol tolerance of most yeast, and leaving it rather sweet. It’s doable but possibly will stall out unless you know what your doing with degassing and nutrients. Even if it ferments well, it could take a considerable time to age it to be good to drink, however the sweetness will help mask that lol. I do make my some of batches with starting gravity as high as 1.150, and have it finish at about 16% with residual sweetness. But that is with a nutrient protocol designed for mead to baby the yeast, so the ferment finishes cleanly without needing months or years to age. Also, I only aim for that much residual sweetness with blends of acidic fruits and juices, so it’s a balancing act.

 

[slice]

The juice i am using will be a Cabernet/Merlot blend

 

[Seamonkey84]

Ok... still need a hydrometer reading to know how much sugar is in it. For wine grapes, usually shouldn’t need to add much sugar. Adding more sugar ups the alcohol, but not always a good thing if the flavor is out of balance. If the yeast reaches alcohol tolerance or stalls, you’ll have sugars left over, so could be too sweet.

 

[slice]

Ok... still need a hydrometer reading to know how much sugar is in it. For wine grapes, usually shouldn’t need to add much sugar. Adding more sugar ups the alcohol, but not always a good thing if the flavor is out of balance. If the yeast reaches alcohol tolerance or stalls, you’ll have sugars left over, so could be too sweet.

Ok so whats a good number to shoot for on the hrydrometer after the sugar is added? Also I'm using the red package montrachet yeast fyi

 

[Seamonkey84]

As Blacksmith said, aim for 1.100ish. That gives the 13%abv like most store bought wines. If the wine grapes were grown right, you shouldn’t need to add much if any sugars. Higher alcohol may get you buzzed faster, but doesn’t nothing good for the flavor, and will prob take longer to age to have it taste good.
If you want it to sweet instead of dry at the end... it’s standard practice to have enough sugar to reach the abv you desire, let it ferment dry and let it clear. Once it’s racked and about ready to bottle, stabilize with sulfite and sorbate, then sweeten to taste. That way there’s more control. If you just load up all the sugars in the beginning, it may reach the advertised abv of the yeast and then stop, leaving left over sugars. But unless your very familiar with the process, using that particular yeast, there’s always a chance the yeast will stop before the advertised tolerance. If that happens, then it’ll be too sweet. If you use nutrient additions and degassing during primary, the yeast may actually exceed the advertised tolerance and use up more sugar than you’d want. Different ways about it, it’s your brew.

 

[slice]

As Blacksmith said, aim for 1.100ish. That gives the 13%abv like most store bought wines. If the wine grapes were grown right, you shouldn’t need to add much if any sugars. Higher alcohol may get you buzzed faster, but doesn’t nothing good for the flavor, and will prob take longer to age to have it taste good.
If you want it to sweet instead of dry at the end... it’s standard practice to have enough sugar to reach the abv you desire, let it ferment dry and let it clear. Once it’s racked and about ready to bottle, stabilize with sulfite and sorbate, then sweeten to taste. That way there’s more control. If you just load up all the sugars in the beginning, it may reach the advertised abv of the yeast and then stop, leaving left over sugars. But unless your very familiar with the process, using that particular yeast, there’s always a chance the yeast will stop before the advertised tolerance. If that happens, then it’ll be too sweet. If you use nutrient additions and degassing during primary, the yeast may actually exceed the advertised tolerance and use up more sugar than you’d want. Different ways about it, it’s your brew.

Thanks for the info. Hoping to start out simple and easy with this batch and then experiment from there. Also doing a muscat juice for the wife since she likes the sweeter wines.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the info. Hoping to start out simple and easy with this batch and then experiment from there. Also doing a muscat juice for the wife since she likes the sweeter wines.

The juice will ferment dry. After that, you can stabilize it and sweeten it. In order to have a wine turn out sweet, you have to give it enough sugar to ferment out (sometimes it will go as high as 18%, depending on yeast strain), but not too much to overwhelm the yeast. That's why you pick the point on the hydrometer, stabilize it when done, then sweeten.

 

[Seamonkey84]

I mean, it really can be this simple,


or as involved as you want to get (once you start adding lots of fruits, Melomel meads and wine are kind of interchangeable, just sugar choice)

 

[slice]

So what do I want my ending hydrometer to read for potential alcohol? 0? And then sweeten it with sugar when it's done fermenting?

 

[Blacksmith1]

The goal is between 1.004 and 0.994 (approximately) this is considered "dry". At just under 1 the yeast have used all the available sugars and fermentation stops. Most of the time this takes about a week. At least for me but I'm in a warm climate. At this point rack it to a carboy. Then it's wait for the yeast to drop out of suspension and when you can see through the wine you rack it. Wait awhile and rack it again.
Then add sulfite, sorbate and sugar if you want to sweeten it. Add this in small amounts so as not to overload it. I did one that was so sweet I had to add dry wine to it just to make it drinkable

 

[slice]

The goal is between 1.004 and 0.994 (approximately) this is considered "dry". At just under 1 the yeast have used all the available sugars and fermentation stops. Most of the time this takes about a week. At least for me but I'm in a warm climate. At this point rack it to a carboy. Then it's wait for the yeast to drop out of suspension and when you can see through the wine you rack it. Wait awhile and rack it again.
Then add sulfite, sorbate and sugar if you want to sweeten it. Add this in small amounts so as not to overload it. I did one that was so sweet I had to add dry wine to it just to make it drinkable

Ok so that's considered dry. What's considered sweet or is that just by taste? I would think a reading would be good to go by since other people's level of "sweet" can vary.

 

[Yooper]

There are some guidelines, so I'll give those to you- but I have to tell you most of it is also personal taste.
I have an "anti-sweet tooth". I have very little tolerance for sweet foods or drinks, so I love dry wines. For me, my wines are always .990 (usual) to .994 or so.
So, 1.002 tastes sweet to me. My friend loves moscato type wines, and things 1.002 is bone dry! Jack keller has a great definition of sweetness in wine on his site: Jack Keller's Glossary of Winemaking Terms
Sweetness:A taste sensation most commonly associated in wines with sugars (glucose and fructose), glycerol, ethanol, and 2,3-butanediol (the latter in trace amounts). While the threshold for detecting sweetness (as sugars) is about 1% by weight, the threshold for classifying a wine as sweet is usually 2% by weight (specific gravity of 1.008) for a wine with 12% alcohol by volume. Sweetness does appear to soften some flavor components and blend with others to enhance their recognition. A wine with poor fruit flavor as a dry wine may possess more recognizable fruitiness when sweetened.

So, the 'official' statistics from winefolly.com:

• Below 1% sweetness, wines are considered dry.
• Above 3% sweetness, wines taste “off-dry,” or semi-sweet.
• Wines above 5% sweetness are noticeably sweet!
• Dessert wines start at around 7–9% sweetness.
• By the way, 1% sweetness is equal to 10 g/L residual sugar (RS).

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi slice, and welcome. The problem is that sweetness is a perception and the more alcohol (ethanol) in a wine, the more acidity in the wine and (I think) the more tannin in a wine the more sugar you will need to perceive the wine as "sweeter" rather than "drier". In other words, a number won't tell you very much. The best practice is to aim for a starting gravity (say 1.090 - 1.100 and choose a yeast with the ability to ferment that brut (bone) dry. Then stabilize and back sweeten and you back sweeten by bench testing - that is to say, by taking say, four identical samples of the wine and adding different known amounts of sugar to each sample and tasting. If none are sweet enough you start again by taking four samples and adding more sugar until you have found the precise amount of sugar you need to add to THAT sample to make it exactly as sweet as you prefer it. Given the fact that a) you know the size of the sample, b), you know the TOTAL volume of the wine you have made and c) you know how much sugar you added to the sample (say 1 gram to 50 ml with a total volume of 5000 ml ) then simple arithmetic tells you that if you divide 5000 by 50 and multiply that answer by 1 this would indicate that that wine needs 100 g of sugar to taste as sweet as you prefer. But another wine might need 250 g and a third wine might need zero grams of sugar.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Or you can just mix it in the bottling bucket and go for it. I have to do both dry for my wife and sweet for her sister so I just add it a bit at a time till I get something acceptable. Not very scientific, and yes the lazy man's approach.

 

[slice]

I was always told to heat the juice to dissolve the sugar, do I do the same when I back sweeten it?

 

[Mark_Y]

I make an inverted suger solution, 2.5 parts suger to 1 part water. Let come to room temp or refrigerate until needed. Too much suger and the solution will crystallize. At 1st I mixed the suger with wine and heated to dissolve, but that will caused oxidation. Abandoned that method. I set up 4 to 5, 50 ml measuring cups and add 1ml of suger solution to the 1st,1.5ml 2nd, 2ml, 2.5ml etc ,use a syringe. Taste. Seems to work best for me, I like semi- sweet for Muscadine. Too acidic, with out back sweetening some. 1 gal has 3785 ml, devide by 50 to scale the suger solution needed.

 

[slice]

When you say 2.5 parts to 1 water like 2.5 lbs of sugar to 1 gallon of water? I guess my only thought is do you really want to add water to it? Won't that cut out some of the flavor ?

 

[Blacksmith1]

never heated it, it always disolves

 

[Mark_Y]

2 to 2.5 cups suger to 1 cup of water heat slowly until completely dissolved, while stirring. Don't want suger to burn. Never tried mixing suger directly into the wine, no experience to even comment on that method. Have not noticed dilution of taste by adding suger solution, percentage wise, not that much is added unless you want very sweet wine.

 

[slice]

What's everyone's opinion on aging the wine? After I bottle it how long should I wait until I drink it? I made the wine on 5/20 and it's currently still fermenting.

 

[Yooper]

What's everyone's opinion on aging the wine? After I bottle it how long should I wait until I drink it? I made the wine on 5/20 and it's currently still fermenting.

It depends on what it is. If it has oak, complex flavors and a high alcohol level, maybe 2 years. My tannat was better after 5 years in the bottle. My white dandelion wine loses character and flavor after about 2 years.

If it's a simple country wine, maybe 30 days after bottling.

 

[slice]

I have a Cabernet/Merlot blend as well as a muscat

 

[Blacksmith1]

I do a lot of crap wine from bottled juices. Minimum of 3 months from adding yeast before even thinking of trying it. Age helps. Preferably 6 or more months. Just my opinion as a fairly inexperienced wine maker.