New to this, have a few questions

[OrganicBrews]

Hello all, I'm new here to this forum, and new to brewing in general. Although, I'm not new to drinking! I'm a long time lover of beer, wine, cider and single malt scotch.

Recently, I've had to go off of grains for a while, so I started drinking more cider. I prefer organic when possible, and since it's hard to find organic cider, I figured hell, it's time to brew my own!

So, I've already started my first batch, which is only 1 gallon, in a glass jug/carboy. I used Red Star Premier Cuvee yeast, 1 cup of organic coconut sugar and warmed that up in some cider ( just a bit, making sure not to let it get really hot ) and added it back to my carboy. It's now been fermenting away for about a week.

I'm excited and I want to get more batches going, but I have a few questions first, after lurking and browsing the threads on this forum for a while.

The first question I have is regarding adding things like yeast nutrients, different sugars, and pectin enzymes & final ingredient lists.

So for example, with the initial sugar, it gets chewed up by the yeast, so if I didn't add additional sugar later, would the original sugar be considered an ingredient of the final product? Same for the pectin enzyme, etc. Would that be considered an ingredient in the final product? Finally, the yeast nutrient. That is "diammonium phosphate and food-grade urea" - would that be considered an ingredient in the final product? Since I'm going for 100% organic, I'm also wondering if I need to seek out specific 'organic' yeast nutrients, etc.?

Regarding the initial added sugar and the yeast consuming it. If the sugar is consumed, will different types of sugar leave different flavors behind? Or is this only really important for added sugar after primary fermentation?

I'm still learning a lot about everything and I don't know much about measuring starting gravity yet, and calculating how much alcohol will be in the final product. I'm just winging it. I do know that cane sugar is sweeter than coconut sugar though, so I'm just guessing that a cup of each is not equal.

Finally, I'm about ready to move up to starting 4 or 5 gallons of cider. I'm not sure what I should go with as far as my carboy is concerned. Any suggestions or comments regarding the pros and cons of going with a 5 gallon glass carboy vs plastic, or vs going with a food grade brewing bucket?

Thanks for any feedback and for looking over my huge list of initial questions...

 

[Kirkwooder]

I have made a hard cider every couple of years for the last 15 years that has nothing in it but fresh pressed apple cider, sugar, and yeast.

It's pretty good. It wasn't until I found this forum that I started to use things like yeast nutrient, and enzymes. They seem to help the yeast ferment the sugars more fully, faster. I don't know if that's true or not, but I have already bottled my cider from this year and it's clear as a bell!

I don't believe that you would consider any of the chemical make up of the cider as separate ingredients. Cider is cider and it has sugar in it.

Yes, honey, brown sugar, white sugar, etc. all will have an effect on the final flavor of your cider.

You will want to get yourself a hydrometer and learn how to use it. It will tell you how much sugar content your must has and then how much is left after fermentation. Letting you know if it is safe to bottle as well as the alcohol content.

As far as fermentation vessels are concerned, every one has their own opinion, and the only one that matters is yours. The carboys are nice, because you can see what's going on inside during and after fermentation. Glass is heavy and does break, and the buckets are easier to handle but don't let you watch the "show".

 

[OrganicBrews]

Thank you, Kirkwooder!

So basically, you're saying that if I used the nutrient, I would have to ( not that I will be listing ingredients, as this is personal ) list "diammonium phosphate" as an ingredient. I would prefer to keep it as pure as possible. Honestly, I'm not even sure what diammonium phosphate is yet, I still need to research it more.

I don't think I see this ingredient listed the the hard cider that I buy at the store.

And yes, I do need to pick up a hydrometer and learn how to read it. That's on my list. I also need to figure out priming and the whole carbonating thing, which seems a bit tricky to me. I really don't want to create bottle bombs!

Thanks again...

 

[OrganicBrews]

So I just read that organic raisins can be used as a yeast nutrient, which sounds like a better option than diammonium phosphate.

 

[Yooper]

My favorite way to make cider is to grab some apples from the trees around our area, and try to find a good mix of tart and bitter and sweet. Press those, and then add some S04 ale yeast to it, and let it ferment. It finishes pretty dry and a bit tart, but it's awesome both carbonated and flat.

If you don't have a press, for many years I froze my apples after washing them, and then hand mashed them. I then put them in a sanitized mesh "fruit bag" from a brew store, added water to cover, and then add the yeast. I fermented that for 5 days, then squeezed out the bag (with sanitized hands) and then let that finish up. I then racked (siphoned) that to a carboy.

There are lots of additives that are helpful- sulfite to sanitize the cider to avoid contamination, pectic enzyme to break up the pectin to clear it nicely, acid blend to add a bit of acid to "flabby" cider, powdered tannin to provide a bite, etc- but none of that is necessary if you don't want to use it.

The simplest cider recipe- fresh pressed cider and ale yeast- is still my favorite.

 

[EpicCider]

My favorite way to make cider is to grab some apples from the trees around our area, and try to find a good mix of tart and bitter and sweet. Press those, and then add some S04 ale yeast to it, and let it ferment. It finishes pretty dry and a bit tart, but it's awesome both carbonated and flat.

If you don't have a press, for many years I froze my apples after washing them, and then hand mashed them. I then put them in a sanitized mesh "fruit bag" from a brew store, added water to cover, and then add the yeast. I fermented that for 5 days, then squeezed out the bag (with sanitized hands) and then let that finish up. I then racked (siphoned) that to a carboy.

There are lots of additives that are helpful- sulfite to sanitize the cider to avoid contamination, pectic enzyme to break up the pectin to clear it nicely, acid blend to add a bit of acid to "flabby" cider, powdered tannin to provide a bite, etc- but none of that is necessary if you don't want to use it.

The simplest cider recipe- fresh pressed cider and ale yeast- is still my favorite.

Reading this reply made me regret selling my home. I need to get a garage and a press asap. So much wasted fruit in my area, I'm sure a craigslist posting could get bulk.

 

[Kirkwooder]

So I just read that organic raisins can be used as a yeast nutrient, which sounds like a better option than diammonium phosphate.

I have heard that as well, and actually did a 5 gallon batch with raisins this year. I added cinnamon sticks at the end and ended up with a firey cider that I think will end up being great served hot! That is if the cinnamon doesn't fade too much.

Bottle carbonating isn't rocket science, just be sure your fermentation is complete before you bottle. Hence the need for the hydrometer!

And finally, Yooper is like E.F. Hutton, when she speaks everybody listens, and for good reason. Pay close attention to any advise she gives you, and bet that it is good and solid! :rockin:

 

[OrganicBrews]

Thank you for the advice, Yooper! I will definitely have to try some cider with ale yeast. Do you have a specific type of ale yeast you can recommend for cider?

kirkwooder, that cider sounds good! I had some cinnamon Angry Orchard that was pretty nice.

So, after the fermenting is done, there is still some residual yeast alive in the cider, which is enough to carbonate in the bottle, if you add just a tiny bit of sugar back? But what if you wanted to further sweeten it with fermentable sugars? Wouldn't the yeast start to grow again and want to consume all of that sugar? I do understand that you can 'cold crash' or pasteurize again to kill the yeast and it stops the carbination. But with just a little priming sugar, you shouldn't have to do that, correct?

Thanks for the advice about Yooper's advice And thanks again for your advice as well...

Oh, and I did get a hydrometer today...

 

[Randzor]

The yeast will eat all sugar. Correct in the Carb comment. There are calculators out there for how much sugar turns into so much co2

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Yooper]

So far, my favorite cider yeast has been S04, a dry ale yeast.

One thing that I'd suggest that you need is a hydrometer. It can tell you when the cider is done, or nearly done, to avoid things like bottle bombs. They are cheap, and you need one. Actually, you need two. They break easily, and if you only have one, it is guaranteed to break. If you have two, neither one will ever break. I speak from experience.

Anyway, if you want a sweet carbonated cider, many people pasteurize to stop the yeast. See the "sticky" thread by Pappers on this. Since I am an anti-sugar Nazi, I don't drink anything sweetened with sugar or artificial sweeteners so I've never done that.

 

[OrganicBrews]

Thank you Randzor and Yooper.

Yooper, thank you for the yeast suggestion!

I did get a new hydrometer yesterday ( and it sounds like I need a second, so that I won't break one ), but I wasn't able to measure my first batch before fermentation began. I was just planning on waiting for the bubbles to basically slow way down or almost stop. It sounds like that isn't a reliable method!

I'll check out Papper's thread. Yeah, I prefer not to add any additional sugar after fermentation. I had just read about some people doing it, and saying that it was needed. I haven't tasted my first batch yet, so I don't know how dry it will be, but I sure look forward to finding out!

Thanks again.

 

[Kirkwooder]

I back sweeten all my ciders. I like them as sweet as they were before fermenting. This year is the first time I ever tried to carbonate any of my sweetened cider. I used Pappers pasturizing in the bottle method.

What ever you do, don't try to use plastic bottles if you plan to pasturize. They won't stand up to the heat and pressure from inside! lol And remember to put the lid on the pot. I had one cap pop off, and I would have sworn someone shot a gun in my kitchen. It was a bomber bottle(22oz.) and it looked like a volcano of cider spewing everywhere! lol

 

[OrganicBrews]

Ok, I have my newest batch of cider brewing now.

I'm brewing 4 gallons of organic cider. The OG of the cider alone is 1.050. I added 1 lb. of organic coconut sugar. The OG is now 1.060. I think it now has a potential alcohol content of almost 8%.

I mashed up some organic raisins while boiling just a little bit of filtered water. I strained some of that out and mixed in a little bit of the juice, heated it up to approx 100 degrees F and mixed in my yeast. I'm using Red Star Cote Des Blanc this time out. I then pitched the yeast mixture into the batch of juice and sealed it up! Airlock is in place.

Meanwhile, it's been about 11 days on my first gallon. It's still bubbling, but they are starting to slow down a bit. I plan on waiting until the bubbles are much slower before I do anything with it.

Hopefully all will go well with both of these batches! Next time I'll probably try the ale yeast.

Thanks again for all your replies and recommendations. I hope all your brewing projects are going well...

 

[Kirkwooder]

I don't mess around with my ciders until they stop bubbling totally. Then I give them a quick degass and wait for them to clear before bottling.

And, did you pitch your yeast into 100* must? If so, I would think that way too warm. I usually don't pitch yeast into anything over 70*.

 

[OrganicBrews]

Kirkwooder, it was probably closer to 90 degrees, but I took it off the heat before I mixed it in. I was following the instructions on the packet. I did about the same with my first batch, and the yeast seemed to kick in and bubble fine. Hopefully it wasn't too warm. I need a candy thermometer.

Also, in my first batch, which is only a gallon, I didn't use any pectic enzyme. I was thinking that when it stops bubbling, I might try to add some pectic enzyme to clear it before bottling. I have 4 1 gallon plastic jugs that I am planning on cleaning up. I was thinking I could temporarily siphon it into one of these jugs, clean out the glass carboy, sanitize it, and put the cider back into the glass carboy with the pectic enzyme for a little while. Does that sound like it would cause any problems?

Thanks, cheers!

 

[Kirkwooder]

You should be fine doing that, or, and I know how hard this when your new to this, you could just forget about it until it drops clear on it's own. It may take a few months though. Yes, I said months, with an s. lol If you can't wait, ad the finning agent and it should drop clear in a week or so. (I use sparkaloid)

Just make sure you sanitize everything really well, and you should be fine!

 

[OrganicBrews]

Would it be smarter/easier for me to just open it now and add in the pectic enzyme and let it finish fermentation? Or should I just let it finish first? It's been going now about 12 days.

 

[Kirkwooder]

I would let it finish. You don't really want to mess with the active fermentation if you don't need to. Let it do it's own thing and then give it another week or so just to be sure it's done and the yeast has some time to "clean up" before you try and knock it out of the cider.

 

[OrganicBrews]

Kirkwooder, are you suggesting I leave it in primary for another week, after it's done fermenting, or that I move it to secondary for a week before I try adding the pectic enzyme?

 

[Kirkwooder]

Leave it be. In the primary, at least for as long as you can stand it. lol At this point it is less than 2 weeks in, if I remember right. It certainly won't hurt it to sit for another month or two. if you want to speed it up some, you can use a clearing agent, but I would let it set at least a week after all the airlock activity stops. Then I would take a gravity reading, wait a couple of days and check it again. If it doesn't change, then you are done fermenting. I would guess that your readings will need to be near the .990-.998 range when fermented out. Depending on your yeast and ferment temps.

Some of my ciders sit on the cake for up to 3 months before I rack them. I literally forget about them! lol These generally are the ones that I think turn out the best. I often wait for them to start to clear before messing with them. If they don't start to clear in about 2 months, I will sometimes degass and rack to a clean carboy. At this time, if I have hit the gravity where I think I should be, and I want to hurry it along, I'll add the yeast killer and clearing agent. Within about a week, it is generally good to go!

 

[Kirkwooder]

How's your cider doing?