New to Kegging Foaming Problem

[Methose]

I am completely new to kegging and just installed my taps last night.
This is the setup:

• It's an old side by side Frigid-air.
• It has 3x 4" stainless steel shanks with a 1/4" ID holes, and a 1/4" barbed stainless nipple attached.
• I'm using 3/16" ID PVC Bevi(something) beer line which is 5' in length
• A 4 way gas manifold 1/4" barbed
• A 5# CO2 tank with single regulator (sits inside the fridge currently)
• The taps are at the very top of the fridge door, so the taps are elevated approximately 4 feet above the kegs, if not a full 6 foot from the bottom of the kegs (sitting on the bottom of the fridge).

The system is currently set as such:
45 deg F, 10psi
I'm shooting for approximately 2.5 volumes of CO2

I have 2 ball lock Korney kegs hooked up and both have the same problem -nothing but foam.
Both beers taste rightly carbed, if not a little bit under carbed, if I drop the pressure to something like 2-3 psi and basically siphon the beer out of the keg into a glass with a picnic tap.

Please help, I'm pouring out foam of the two best batches of homebrew I've ever created

 

[Yooper]

I'd change out the 5' lines for 10-12' lines and you should be fixed right up.

If they are Bevflex brand (I think that's spelled right), I'd go even longer as they have less resistance than the perlick and other beer lines.

 

[Methose]

I'd change out the 5' lines for 10-12' lines and you should be fixed right up.

If they are Bevflex brand (I think that's spelled right), I'd go even longer as they have less resistance than the perlick and other beer lines.

I've used several calculations based on Palmer's recommended formula of resistance but they all come out at like 4.66 ft or something, which doesn't seem right.

I think they are Bevflex, what length would you think given the elevation, temp, and pressure?

 

[Methose]

Oh yes, I was also noticing the following occurring while testing:
It appears as if the hose itself is filling up with bubbles, and eventually completely clears the tubing of all beer due to the bubbles. This seemed really odd, as if there is some problem, or is that normal?

 

[zachattack]

The hose filling with bubbles either means that the beer is overcarbonated relative to your current pressure (as it is when you turn it down to 2-3 PSI), the lines are warmer than the keg, or your dip tube or dip tube o-ring is compromised. If it's happening on two separate kegs, it's probably either of the first two.

10 psi @ 45 degrees is only about 2.1 volumes of CO2. For 2.5 volumes, you need 15 PSI, but that will make your problem a little worse. Regardless, don't go by the line length calculators.

You should find out what your exact type of tubing is. Is it barrier tubing (is there a smooth liner inside the tube)? Is it rigid? Is it opaque?

If you want to stick with 15 PSI:

I don't have experience with Bevlex, but for standard non-barrier vinyl tubing, try 12 feet. If you have barrier tubing, with that rise, I'd say at least 15 feet, probably 20.

Turning the temp down to 40 degrees will help with the foaming and allow you to drop the pressure to maintain the same carbonation level. So you can get away with slightly shorter lines.

 

[Methose]

Kuritec Bevlex
is the specific line I'm using, not sure if that is barrier or not.
So are we thinking 20' per tap here, cause that seems like an awfuly long tube just to be coiled up sitting in that fridge, plus it's fairly expensive.
I'm just looking at getting 3 or 4 kegs going and that would be close to $100 worth of beer line

 

[duboman]

I'm adjusting my system for the same reason, although not pouring all foam. I'm set at 40F serving at 10psi and am using 10' of 3/16 Bevlex line an dit solved my issues completely.

Not sure where you are pricing out your line but my LHBS sells it at $0.69/ft so your would be around $55.00 if you went with 4 kegs at 20' each

I'm new to this as well but my kegs are nowhere near as low down form the tap as yours, the above responses are from people far ore experienced than myself with kegging.......still feeling like a noob again

 

[Bobby_M]

10 ft should be plenty. I didn't see it mentioned yet but how did you carb the kegs in the first place?

 

[JuanMoore]

I've used several calculations based on Palmer's recommended formula of resistance but they all come out at like 4.66 ft or something, which doesn't seem right.

I think they are Bevflex, what length would you think given the elevation, temp, and pressure?

The only thing those line calculators and equations give you is the line length to result in a flow rate of ~1 gal/min. This is the optimal flow rate for bars and restaurants, as it's about as fast as you can pour a beer served in a commercial setting (carbed to 2.7 vol and stored under 38F) without excessive foaming. The problem is that the warmer or more carbonated the beer is, the slower and more gently it needs to be poured in order to keep the CO2 from coming out of solution. Even a couple degrees makes a huge difference, and since line resistance decreases as flow rate decreases, you need a much much longer line to slow the flow rate down even a little. If you really want to serve your beer with moderate carb levels and at 45F, you're likely going to need 12-15' lines. If you lower the temp a couple degrees, 10' lines should be just fine. Keep in mind that the beer typically warms ~2 degrees from being poured into a room temp glass.

It sounds like you have another issue causing foaming though. Look at everything zach mentioned and get that sorted out too. If you carbed to 2.5 vol and are now serving it at 10 psi, that would be the problem. You need the serving pressure to match the equilibrium pressure of your carbonation level, which would be 15 psi for 2.5 vol at that temp.

10 ft should be plenty. I didn't see it mentioned yet but how did you carb the kegs in the first place?

IME 10' is borderline for 45F and 2.5 vol. Would be plenty if he lowered the temp a couple degrees or the pressure a couple psi though.

 

[Bobby_M]

IME 10' is borderline for 45F and 2.5 vol. Would be plenty if he lowered the temp a couple degrees or the pressure a couple psi though.

I think 10 will be fine given the rise he has. If it were a chest freezer, with less rise, I'd go 12'. As an aside, I do think 45 is too warm. Closer to 40 would make things a lot easier.

 

[Methose]

10 ft should be plenty. I didn't see it mentioned yet but how did you carb the kegs in the first place?

I carbed both kegs by setting the regulator to 34-40 psi for 24-48 hours. I checked them each night by draining the headspace, lowering to 4-5 psi and pouring from a picnic tap. For both beers, they were undercarbed at 24 hours so I put it on for another 24 hours, and they were perfect at the 48 hour mark. After this I set the regulator back to 10 psi.
Each night after that, for about 2 weeks, I've tried to pour at 10 psi and had foam issues. The only way I can get beer from it, is to drop to 5 psi and drain headspace, then pour at a trickle from the 5' hose on a picnic tap.

The night before last I turned the temp down slightly on the fridge, which put me about 40 deg F.
Last night I replaced the line with 15' and had the same foaming problem to my taps.
The same thing happens where the beer drains back down out of the beer line, after filling the tube with bubbles.
I'm at a loss.

 

[JuanMoore]

I carbed both kegs by setting the regulator to 34-40 psi for 24-48 hours. I checked them each night by draining the headspace, lowering to 4-5 psi and pouring from a picnic tap. For both beers, they were undercarbed at 24 hours so I put it on for another 24 hours, and they were perfect at the 48 hour mark. After this I set the regulator back to 10 psi.
Each night after that, for about 2 weeks, I've tried to pour at 10 psi and had foam issues. The only way I can get beer from it, is to drop to 5 psi and drain headspace, then pour at a trickle from the 5' hose on a picnic tap.

The night before last I turned the temp down slightly on the fridge, which put me about 40 deg F.
Last night I replaced the line with 15' and had the same foaming problem to my taps.
The same thing happens where the beer drains back down out of the beer line, after filling the tube with bubbles.
I'm at a loss.

How long does it take for the bubbles to fill the line? Are they present in the lines while you're pouring, or does it take them a few minutes to form? If they're always present, you likely have a bad seal on your liquid side dip tube o-ring. If it takes a while for the bubbles to form, then your serving pressure likely doesn't match your carbonation level. It's really hard to guess how much carbonation you have with your carb method, especially since you're not sure what pressure you used, but I think it's safe to say that your over 2.5 vol. This means that your serving pressure at 40F needs to be higher than 13 psi, or you need to reduce the carb level.

 

[Methose]

How long does it take for the bubbles to fill the line? Are they present in the lines while you're pouring, or does it take them a few minutes to form? If they're always present, you likely have a bad seal on your liquid side dip tube o-ring. If it takes a while for the bubbles to form, then your serving pressure likely doesn't match your carbonation level. It's really hard to guess how much carbonation you have with your carb method, especially since you're not sure what pressure you used, but I think it's safe to say that your over 2.5 vol. This means that your serving pressure at 40F needs to be higher than 13 psi, or you need to reduce the carb level.

The line is empty at first, then I open the tap and it fills with foam first, then starts to turn to a mix of bubbles and beer. Pretty much as soon as I close the tap, the bubbles start to take over the beer in the line, and the beer drains back into the keg.

Is there any way to measure the volumes of CO2 in the beer?

Does this description sound like there could be something wrong with the kegs? I did get them used off craig's list.

 

[JuanMoore]

The line is empty at first, then I open the tap and it fills with foam first, then starts to turn to a mix of bubbles and beer. Pretty much as soon as I close the tap, the bubbles start to take over the beer in the line, and the beer drains back into the keg.

Does this description sound like there could be something wrong with the kegs? I did get them used off craig's list.

Sounds like it could be a bad seal at the liquid side diptube. Did you completely disassemble the kegs and replace the o-rings when you got the kegs? It's generally a good idea. Either way, remove the liquid side post (after turning the gas off and venting the headspace pressure of course), pull the diptube out, and have a look at the o-ring. Also check the underside of the flange on the diptube and the mating surface on the keg to make sure there aren't any cracks, nicks, or scratches that might be letting gas past the o-ring.

 

[Bobby_M]

The way to measure volumes of CO2 in a keg is to vent the headspace a bit, then connect a gas QD with a pressure gauge attached. Leave it that way for about an hour and then measure the pressure.

 

[Methose]

Sounds like it could be a bad seal at the liquid side diptube. Did you completely disassemble the kegs and replace the o-rings when you got the kegs? It's generally a good idea. Either way, remove the liquid side post (after turning the gas off and venting the headspace pressure of course), pull the diptube out, and have a look at the o-ring. Also check the underside of the flange on the diptube and the mating surface on the keg to make sure there aren't any cracks, nicks, or scratches that might be letting gas past the o-ring.

I did not, unfortunately, check anything other that the fact that it held pressure when I got the kegs. I really didn't know how much these things came apart. I've drained one of the kegs and plan to take it all apart tonight to inspect the dip tube further.
This looks like it could be the problem based on seemingly not matter how long the lines I still get foam.


Also, I left one of the kegs at 6 psi over the long weekend, to see what would happen. I connected the original 5' beer line up when I got back and poured the first glass of only about 50/50 foam and beer, but the second glass after a while poured with very little foam -though the beer seems a little under carbed for my preference.

It's really difficult to tell what's going on, I think the next beer I carb I will not try to rush it and wait the 2 weeks at 10 psi to see what happens.

 

[DrunkleJon]

In my opinion you are overcarbed. My suggestions are to vent the pressure off your kegs from the pressure relief valve on the kegs, and do so several times over a period of a day or 2. Then turn gas back on and set it to serving pressure. From here you should not need to adjust your regulator. I know it is hard to wait, but you will have the best results from the set and forget method as the force (Burst) carbing is less than exacting.

I do really reccomend 10-12 foot lines, 5 feet really isnt enough for most homebrew applications, or pressure. You would be amazed how many threads we have on here where people complain of foamy pours and it is fixed by swithcing to 10 foot lines.

Also, feeling your taps, are they cold to the touch? Do you get condensation on the outside? if they are warm (which is usually a problem more often with coffin or tower style kegerators) the the warming can also contribute to foamy first pours. This can be resolved by putting a fan in your kegerator.

I have a keezer with 10 foot lines, kept at ~40 degrees and 12psi. No foaming issues whatsoever with the set and forget method, and often times my beers are carbed enough in a week. Once you start staggering your kegs, or add another gas line so you can carbonate a standby keg it will be much easier to wait out the in keg carbonation/cold crash period

 

[Methose]

In my opinion you are overcarbed. My suggestions are to vent the pressure off your kegs from the pressure relief valve on the kegs, and do so several times over a period of a day or 2. Then turn gas back on and set it to serving pressure. From here you should not need to adjust your regulator. I know it is hard to wait, but you will have the best results from the set and forget method as the force (Burst) carbing is less than exacting.

I do really reccomend 10-12 foot lines, 5 feet really isnt enough for most homebrew applications, or pressure. You would be amazed how many threads we have on here where people complain of foamy pours and it is fixed by swithcing to 10 foot lines.

Also, feeling your taps, are they cold to the touch? Do you get condensation on the outside? if they are warm (which is usually a problem more often with coffin or tower style kegerators) the the warming can also contribute to foamy first pours. This can be resolved by putting a fan in your kegerator.

I have a keezer with 10 foot lines, kept at ~40 degrees and 12psi. No foaming issues whatsoever with the set and forget method, and often times my beers are carbed enough in a week. Once you start staggering your kegs, or add another gas line so you can carbonate a standby keg it will be much easier to wait out the in keg carbonation/cold crash period

-I think you are right that they are overcarbed. Next time I will go ahead and do the standard week or 2 of carbing, rather than rush carbing them.
-I've dropped the temp on my fridge to roughly 35 deg.
-The taps do feel cold to touch and are pretty much getting condensation on the outside.
-I plan to put both my lines about 12-15'.
-I think I will add a small fan in there, as it's a side-by-side standup, and I can tell that there is a good amount of temp difference in the top and bottom.
-I'm going to take the kegs apart fully and try to check everything before putting beer in it this time.

I'm out of beer now, but have 2 more that are done and ready to go to keg.
Guess I'll see more when I get more beer

 

[DrunkleJon]

Looks like you are going in the right direction. It may be time to get another fermenter so you can keep it full. The addiction will start building.

 

[n240sxguy]

I'm one of the guilty parties who started a thread similar to this not long ago. I hadn't had a keg on tap in a few months, and when I hooked it up I had the pressure at 10-11 psi with way too much foam. Dropped it to 6 psi, and it's perfect.

 

[Methose]

Looks like you are going in the right direction. It may be time to get another fermenter so you can keep it full. The addiction will start building.

I've got plenty of fermenters at this point just not enough time to brew enough beer