New to Bru'n and stuck trying to balance ions. In need of advice

[yourfriendmikem]

Hello

I plan on brewing an oatmeal stout tomorrow and I've been playing with my water chemistry trying to match the black balanced profile. I can't seem to get close to the bicarbonate using baking soda without the cell turning red and I can't figure out why it's happening. Sodium is over target but not by much and bicarbonate is less than 10 below where it should be. I feel like I'm missing something obvious...View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1486694755.142007.jpg

any help will be appreciated!

 

[jmark]

Unless you need to raise the pH, you should ignore the bicarbonate. The first thing to do is try to adjust to get your mash pH where you need it and then worry about the flavor ions... bicarbonate can pretty much be ignored.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Unless you need to raise the pH, you should ignore the bicarbonate. The first thing to do is try to adjust to get your mash pH where you need it and then worry about the flavor ions... bicarbonate can pretty much be ignored.

Is that true in all cases? I was under the impression that hitting the bicarbonate number was important in stouts because it balances the acidity of the roasted grains.

 

[jmark]

Pretty much... the only reason you may need bicarbonate for stouts is that the roasted grains bring down the pH so you need some alkalinity to get the pH back into range. It's not really the bicarbonate number you care about, again, it's getting the pH in range. In fact, folks often use other options to raise pH... personally I use pickling lime if I need to do this.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Pretty much... the only reason you may need bicarbonate for stouts is that the roasted grains bring down the pH so you need some alkalinity to get the pH back into range. It's not really the bicarbonate number you care about, again, it's getting the pH in range. In fact, folks often use other options to raise pH... personally I use pickling lime if I need to do this.

Would it make sense to add as much baking soda as I am able to before the cell turns red in order to at least get close to my targets?

 

[McKnuckle]

Don't do that. You don't want the extra sodium in your beer. It is 100% correct that the bicarbonate value, in and of itself, is NOT a target you shoot for. You aim for the mash pH. Bicarbonate is incidental to that. It has no flavor or substantive contribution as an entity unto itself. (Really)

I think 30 ppm is as high as I'd want to go for sodium (usually I stay under 25), so add baking soda til your mash pH is at least 5.45 and then call this done. The other ions are fine.

 

[mabrungard]

I see that you are using the Supporter's version which will show that the sodium is diluted in the final wort....when you are using sparging water. I have to assume that this is a no-sparge mash, since there is no dilution of that sodium value. You certainly do that, but this is a result.

The 50 ppm sodium is actually not a problem in dark styles. That level is WAY below the taste threshold for sodium, so there is no worry there. The sodium does improve the perception of roundness in the beer and is welcome in dark styles. My advice is to ignore the fact that you can't get the sodium cell to turn green. It's close enough and I think you will actually like the resulting stout.

Thanks for being a Supporter!

 

[raysmithtx]

Are you using distilled water? I noticed that all the water values are 0 and the dilution % is 0 too.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

I see that you are using the Supporter's version which will show that the sodium is diluted in the final wort....when you are using sparging water. I have to assume that this is a no-sparge mash, since there is no dilution of that sodium value. You certainly do that, but this is a result.

The 50 ppm sodium is actually not a problem in dark styles. That level is WAY below the taste threshold for sodium, so there is no worry there. The sodium does improve the perception of roundness in the beer and is welcome in dark styles. My advice is to ignore the fact that you can't get the sodium cell to turn green. It's close enough and I think you will actually like the resulting stout.

Thanks for being a Supporter!

Thank you for your response. I do no sparge biab brewing.

Is the baking soda cell red because the sodium cell is out of bounds and orange? The software says that the baking soda cell turns red if it is added with an acid.

Do you think I should be good to go with the numbers I have?

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Don't do that. You don't want the extra sodium in your beer. It is 100% correct that the bicarbonate value, in and of itself, is NOT a target you shoot for. You aim for the mash pH. Bicarbonate is incidental to that. It has no flavor or substantive contribution as an entity unto itself. (Really)

I think 30 ppm is as high as I'd want to go for sodium (usually I stay under 25), so add baking soda til your mash pH is at least 5.45 and then call this done. The other ions are fine.

I need the baking soda or get my ph in line. When I drop it ph was down around 5.1.

It looks like I'll need the baking soda to adjust the ph and a side effect of that that doesn't really matter is that my bicarbonate level will get closer to the target (even though that doesn't really matter)

 

[McKnuckle]

I didn't suggest to drop it altogether, just reduce it - it is the only thing you're adding that increases bicarbonate and Na in the water. Martin feels that 50 ppm Na is fine. I have never gone that high or needed to, frankly, to achieve a 5.5 pH with distilled water when brewing stout. So try it out and see what you think. All we are saying is that the bicarbonate number is not a useful target unto itself.

 

[mabrungard]

The software says that the baking soda cell turns red if it is added with an acid.

When you add both an alkali and acid, the cells in the bicarbonate column turn red. The input cell on the Baking Soda line turned red since it sees that the sodium level is significantly higher than the target level and the Baking Soda input is the reason. If you had any table salt input, it would turn red too.

Those are just helpful prompts and not requirements. You can ignore them, but I think you should be aware of them.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Thanks everyone

Quick software related side question.

When I use beersmith I input a batch size of 5.25 gallons. This gives me a post boil volume of 5.46 gallons. Do I set Bru'n to the Batch size after estimated losses or the 5.46 gallon post boil volume?

 

[mabrungard]

Batch size is only used with respect to the estimated beer color. It's not that important to be highly accurate. Its the mashing and sparging volumes that need to be accurate with respect to the actual water volumes you use.