New to all grain numbers question

[Methose]

recipe

mash ended up at 162 for 1 hour. I tried to get it to target 156, but couldn't get it lowered despite the ice cubes I added.
first runnings produced 2.5 gal: 1.068 @ 162 -corrected is 1.093
second runnings produced 4 gal: 1.012 @ 172 -corrected is 1.039
pre boil was 6.5 gal: 1.030 @ 138 -corrected is 1.046
original gravity at 5.25 gal: 1.052 @ 62 -corrected is 1.053

Something seems wrong here. Could these numbers be correct or are my measurements off?

I'm so new I'm not even sure what other information we'd need here to figure this out :fro:

 

[Methose]

recipe

mash ended up at 162 for 1 hour. I tried to get it to target 156, but couldn't get it lowered despite the ice cubes I added.
first runnings produced 2.5 gal: 1.068 @ 162 -corrected is 1.093
second runnings produced 4 gal: 1.012 @ 172 -corrected is 1.039
pre boil was 6.5 gal: 1.030 @ 138 -corrected is 1.046
original gravity at 5.25 gal: 1.052 @ 62 -corrected is 1.053

Something seems wrong here. Could these numbers be correct or are my measurements off?

I'm so new I'm not even sure what other information we'd need here to figure this out :fro:

So does this put my efficiency at 70%? I think my problem is that I'm not sure how to calculate for the difference in volume between the first and second runnings.
Also, I was wondering if there is a way to tell if I will be able to do a no sparge batch based on the measurements of the first runnings?

 

[dgr]

6.5X46 = 299
5.25X53 = 278
Where'd your 4 points/gallon go?

FYI, you need to get your wort below 100 degrees to get a measurement that is somewhat correctable. I dip a mason jar into the wort in my catch bucket and put it directly into an ice bath. Haven't broken a jar yet.

Take your points x your gallons and then divide that by your final volume in the pot.
Example. 6.5 gallons at 1.050 = 6.5 x 50 = 325. 325/5.5 = 59. So I should end up with 5.5 gallons at 1.059 at the end of boil. This is how you adjust your wort preboil with DME or by sparging more to hit your desired post boil gravity. Be aware that if you sparge more you end up with more volume that you need to boil off and you can only get so much sugar out of the grain bill.

You can use a calculator like this to determine your efficiency. http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/

 

[Methose]

6.5X46 = 299
5.25X53 = 278
Where'd your 4 points/gallon go?

http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/

I guess this is the inaccuracy of a hydrometer at high temps?

So with my numbers: 2.5 x 93 = 232.5 / 5 = 46.5, I should have been able to do first runnings, and fill the rest of the volume with water, and then boil down to an ending volume of 5 gal of wort at 1.046?
or am I off here?

 

[dgr]

The only way I know to calculate efficiency is to find total points of the grains and adjuncts first. Here's my best guess on your recipe.
100% efficiency = 1.062 at 6.5 gallons
75% efficiency = 1.047
1.046 = 74% efficiency

Interesting if we look at your first runnings of 2.5 gallons
100% efficiency = 1.161
75% efficiency = 1.121
Your efficiency = 58%
Very curious (final volume) 46 * 6.5 = 299. (first running) 93*2.5 = 232.5. (second running) 39*4 = 156. 232.5 + 156 = 388.5. So you lost almost 90 points in your boil? I think the corrected gravity on your first and second runnings were lower than calculated.

It looks like you hit your post-boil gravity dead on by looking at your recipe page. I assume beer smith is assuming 75% efficiency? I think I'm going to have to spend $20 on BS so I can see what everyone else is seeing.

Doing the math quickly, Looks to me you could have taken your first runnings of 2.5 gal at 1.093 and diluted up to your pre-boil volume to end up with 5.05 gallos of 1.046 wort. BUT, I put no faith in the converted hydrometer values you have. See the math above. 90 points don't just disappear.

I am also way out of my element as far as unfermentable extracting vs. sugar extracting. You mashed very high compared to what I brew. That should provide more unfermentables. Do they extract easier than sugar, harder or the same? I just don't know.

If you are doing a batch or fly sparge in a lauter-tun, I think you are wasting grain if you are able to pull a first running that is concentrated enough to give you your final gravity. Of course, grain's cheap and all that. What's a partigyle Brown Ale become anyway?

I do like to know how to get from pre-boil to post-boil gravity. You can tell before you start your boil is you are going too be too high, low or just right. Then you can dump some wort and dilute or plan for a bigger batch, run another sparge if your grain has enough sugar left, or soldier on. Who wants to put DME in it to "fix it" after all the work trying to get it right.

Plus I smile every time thinking about someone, somewhere saying to himself in math class, "Where am I going to use this?"

good luck

 

[Yooper]

I guess this is the inaccuracy of a hydrometer at high temps?

Yes. Readings over about 90 degrees are so inaccurate as to be useless. Even with conversion software/charts, they aren't accurate.

Cool the sample in a pitcher of ice water to under 100 degrees, then take the reading and convert it.

The readings aren't accurate at high temperatures, but the cooled wort reading would be accurate so that's the correct readinig.

 

[Methose]

Looks like i'm stuck at 1.020. Would high mash temps caused unfermentables and this beer actually be done or should I repitch? I tasted the beer and it's not really sweet but its hard to tell because of the roasted and generally good tasting beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

For measuring pre-fermentation gravity I would use a refractometer. One or 2 drops are almost instantly at ambient temperature when dropped on the crystal. $20-25 will buy you one with automatic temperature compensation (ATC). Just don't use the SG scale, only Brix.

Calculate how many points your recipe calls for (volume x gravity points) and gather that many points from your mash. If it comes up short, you can add the missing points with extract, boil longer but get a smaller batch, or live with a slightly thinner beer. After 2 all-grain brews you know much better how many points you can extract from a given grain bill, i.e. your efficiency.

Hints:
Don't collect runnings below 1.010, and, when sparging, keep a close eye on pH (pH meter or strips) to prevent tannin extraction. When batch sparging, like you do, I always add some lactic acid to my sparge water. Around 1/2 tsp of 88% per 5 gallons, but that may be higher if you have a higher alkalinity.

As mentioned before 162°F [edit] is pretty high for mashing, which causes more unfermentables for your yeast and a higher FG.

Last but not least, check your thermometer for accuracy.

 

[Yooper]

Looks like i'm stuck at 1.020. Would high mash temps caused unfermentables and this beer actually be done or should I repitch? I tasted the beer and it's not really sweet but its hard to tell because of the roasted and generally good tasting beer.

Yes, a high mash temperature would mean that this beer is probably done (not stuck).

 

[Methose]

Yes, a high mash temperature would mean that this beer is probably done (not stuck).

So I've extracted .005 of unfermentables in there from the high temp mash?
The beer was quite a bit cloudy, but it's only been a week.

Any thoughts on possible problems reusing yeast from a batch with all those extra tannins/unfermentables? The reason for this brew was really to build up yeast for a 10 gallon batch of Wake n Bake clone I'm brewing this coming Saturday. -I plan to rack off the cake into secondary then wash the yeast a couple of days before brew day.

 

[hophop]

For measuring pre-fermentation gravity I would use a refractometer. One or 2 drops are almost instantly at ambient temperature when dropped on the crystal. $20-25 will buy you one with automatic temperature compensation (ATC). Just don't use the SG scale, only Brix.

Calculate how many points your recipe calls for (volume x gravity points) and gather that many points from your mash. If it comes up short, you can add the missing points with extract, boil longer but get a smaller batch, or live with a slightly thinner beer. After 2 all-grain brews you know much better how many points you can extract from a given grain bill, i.e. your efficiency.

Hints:
Don't collect runnings below 1.010, and, when sparging, keep a close eye on pH (pH meter or strips) to prevent tannin extraction. When batch sparging, like you do, I always add some lactic acid to my sparge water. Around 1/2 tsp of 88% per 5 gallons, but that may be higher if you have a higher alkalinity.

As mentioned before 162°F [edit] is pretty high for mashing, which causes more unfermentables for your yeast and a higher FG.

Last but not least, check your thermometer for accuracy.

Why do you need to use the brix scale only? If sg and brix scales are side by side on the refractometer, I'd think you could use both/either.

 

[dgr]

No problem reusing your yeast. You are going to have so little of the unfermentables left in your yeast as to make no measurable difference. It's not like the yeast are mad at you for giving them stuff they couldn't eat.

 

[IslandLizard]

No problem reusing your yeast. You are going to have so little of the unfermentables left in your yeast as to make no measurable difference. It's not like the yeast are mad at you for giving them stuff they couldn't eat.

Exactly. I don't think you extracted a lot of tannins, and none would impact the yeast or be detectable in your next pitch. Same for the little bit of unfermentables that are left after racking.

 

[IslandLizard]

Why do you need to use the brix scale only? If sg and Brix scales are side by side on the refractometer, I'd think you could use both/either.

Yeah, it is hard to believe, but most refractometers on the market that have both Brix and SG scales all suffer from the same problem. Even the ones that claim to have corrected scales!

The Brix reading itself is typically fairly accurate for our purposes. The SG scale on the other side is only acceptable for low Brix readings but the higher they get the larger the error.

Reason is, the scales on those refractometers are based on an incorrect conversion formula:

SG = 1 +(0.004 x Brix).​

The conversion algorithm is way more complicated. One of the approximation formulas used is:

SG = (Brix / (258.6-((Brix / 258.2)*227.1))) + 1 (BYO Magazine)​

There are many Brix/SG/ABV calculators online, to make our life easier.
Here's an article at HBT on refractometers

Now why in the world the manufacturers don't make a correct scale once and for all, which will weed out the bad ones over time is beyond me.
Only much more expensive laboratory grade refractometers have highly accurate SG scales. And those instruments need to be calibrated frequently to ensure those readings remain accurate and within their specific small error range.

 

[hophop]

Yeah, it is hard to believe, but most refractometers on the market that have both Brix and SG scales all suffer from the same problem. Even the ones that claim to have corrected scales!

The Brix reading itself is typically fairly accurate for our purposes. The SG scale on the other side is only acceptable for low Brix readings but the higher they get the larger the error.

Reason is, the scales on those refractometers are based on an incorrect conversion formula:
SG = 1 +(0.004 x Brix).
The conversion algorithm is way more complicated. One of the approximation formulas used is:
SG = (Brix / (258.6-((Brix / 258.2)*227.1))) + 1 (BYO Magazine)

There are many Brix/SG/ABV calculators online, to make our life easier.
Here's an article at HBT on refractometers

Now why in the world the manufacturers don't make a correct scale once and for all, which will weed out the bad ones over time is beyond me.
Only much more expensive laboratory grade refractometers have highly accurate SG scales. And those instruments need to be calibrated frequently to ensure those readings remain accurate and within their specific small error range.

My refractometer reads exactly the same sg as my calibrated hydrometer. I guess I got lucky.

 

[mattd2]

My refractometer reads exactly the same sg as my calibrated hydrometer. I guess I got lucky.

What is the normal gravity of the beers you brew? the differnce is not really noticable until 1.070+

 

[hophop]

I never brew over 1.070. So, you can't say SG is wrong and never use the SG scale. then say its ok to use it under 1.070.

 

[mattd2]

I never brew over 1.070. So, you can't say SG is wrong and never use the SG scale. then say its ok to use it under 1.070.

The SG scale on these refractometers is only an approximation (based on the simplified equation). Yes there is no issue using it a lower gravities but just be aware of it when working with higher gravity beers. I guess his point was if you always use the brix scale, you don't have to remeber to not use SG when you do do a big beer.

 

[Methose]

So I've carbd this guy up now and it's been in the fridge for a week or so maybe.
This beer is incredibly hazy, like murky river water.

I've been looking into some sort of fining, but was wondering what to target. Based on the fact that I mashed way to hot, what would I have extracted to cause cloudy beer, protein, tannins, something else?

Should I look for an additive or filter, or just say F-it cause it's already carbd and cold?