New recipe for hazy IPA but something's off...

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I wanted to build up a recipe for a hazy, sessionable IPA, without resorting to the usual hops. To try something a little different, maybe. Avoid the very tropical, very fruity hops, as IPA's like that, for me at least, aren't very sessionable. As in: after one, I'm done. I wanted to see if I could come up with something a little more fresh, subtle, easier to drink. So I brewed this:

SG 1.048
FG 1.015
ABV 4.5%
IBU 25
BU/ GU 0.51

Golden Promise malt 66.7%
Naked oat malt 11,1%
Wheat flakes 11,1%
Spelt malt 11,1%

Citra hops at 10 minutes left in the boil for bittering and residual aroma.
Equal parts Motueka, Wakatu and Strisslespalt in whirlpool at 90 C/ 194 F
Dry-hop equal parts Motueka, Wakatu and Strisslespalt.

Yeast: S-33 by Fermentis.


It looks good. Bright en lemony. Nice haze. It has body. But it's missing something. The hops feel a little one-dimensional. There might be some sweetness lacking. It's citrussy without anything to carry that citrusness, if that make sense. Like lemon juice was added to a cloudy beer?

Any suggestions for my second batch?
 
Honestly I think lack of gravity is your problem. It's probably out of balance

The key to a session IPA is mashing really high so there's enough residual sweetness and body to carry the hops without adding alcohol. A small dose of lactose might help

You could try a bit in a pint and see if it improves. I'm talking a small subtle bump in sweetness not a millshake IPA
 
I use this hop comparison tool to help me figure out what hops go together. Taste can/is very subjective.
On that note, Strisslespalt is an herbal, floral hop that might be covering up/muting the other hops. I would drop it and use Wai-iti to reinforce the lemony. Also, I would add .2oz of Mangum or Warrior @60min to give it a clean bitterness backbone.
 
I use this hop comparison tool to help me figure out what hops go together. Taste can/is very subjective.
On that note, Strisslespalt is an herbal, floral hop that might be covering up/muting the other hops. I would drop it and use Wai-iti to reinforce the lemony. Also, I would add .2oz of Mangum or Warrior @60min to give it a clean bitterness backbone.

Awesome.
 
Honestly I think lack of gravity is your problem. It's probably out of balance

The key to a session IPA is mashing really high so there's enough residual sweetness and body to carry the hops without adding alcohol. A small dose of lactose might help

You could try a bit in a pint and see if it improves. I'm talking a small subtle bump in sweetness not a millshake IPA

Thanks man. I did a step mash because of the adjunct grains. Started low temp. Do you reckon that's not necessary?
 
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I wanted to build up a recipe for a hazy, sessionable IPA, without resorting to the usual hops. To try something a little different, maybe. Avoid the very tropical, very fruity hops, as IPA's like that, for me at least, aren't very sessionable. As in: after one, I'm done. I wanted to see if I could come up with something a little more fresh, subtle, easier to drink. So I brewed this:

SG 1.048
FG 1.015
ABV 4.5%
IBU 25
BU/ GU 0.51

Golden Promise malt 66.7%
Naked oat malt 11,1%
Wheat flakes 11,1%
Spelt malt 11,1%

Citra hops at 10 minutes left in the boil for bittering and residual aroma.
Equal parts Motueka, Wakatu and Strisslespalt in whirlpool at 90 C/ 194 F
Dry-hop equal parts Motueka, Wakatu and Strisslespalt.

Yeast: S-33 by Fermentis.


It looks good. Bright en lemony. Nice haze. It has body. But it's missing something. The hops feel a little one-dimensional. There might be some sweetness lacking. It's citrussy without anything to carry that citrusness, if that make sense. Like lemon juice was added to a cloudy beer?

Any suggestions for my second batch?
That is fantastic that you are a brewer in training! Who is training you and who wrote the books that you are learning from?
Use Wulf's triple decoction method or Hochkurz double decoction method for making authentic ale and lager or use the step mash method for making pseudo ale and lager. Strike and target temperature are useless for making ale and lager because enzymes do not work from high temperature to low temperature.
Purchase high quality, under modified, low protein, malt. You are in Europe, use the data under the EBC (European Brewers Congress) column on a malt spec sheet and purchase malt that is Kolbach Index 40 and lower with a protein content of 10% and less. Weyermann and Gladfield produce under modified, malt.
Purchase balanced hops. The percentage of Beta has to be stamped on a container of hops, not only Alpha. Purchase hops that have an Alpha-Beta percentage within a decimal point. The closer the numbers the finer and more balanced hops are.
You may not have the equipment for the decoction method but may be for step mashing. Using high quality, malt start out with an acid rest at 37, 38 to allow the natural pH of the malt to stabilize mash pH before activating the enzymes. Add sour malt to reduce pH. After pH is good add boing water to rapidly increase mash temperature to 60 and rest the mash for 40 minutes, conversion occurs. Beta is responsible for conversion. After 40 minutes use boiling water to rapidly increase mash temperature to 67 and rest the mash for 20 minutes for saccharification. After 20 minutes use boiling water to rapidly increase mash temperature to 70 and rest the mash for 10 minutes. Skip mash out. Alpha will denature by the time the 3rd rest ends. Fly sparge. Skim off hot break as the extract boils and after hot break stops forming add hops. You have carte blanche with the two higher temperatures. Just remember, the higher the temperature the quicker Alpha denatures, and the beer will be sweet and low in ABV, also starch carry over can occur.
When conversion occurs, Beta turns simple sugar, glucose, into fermentable, complex types of sugar, maltose and maltotriose and secondary fermentation takes place. You will need a secondary fermentation vessel. After primary fermentation ends rack the beer off the trub and autolyzed yeast and place the beer into a secondary fermentation vessel. After secondary fermentation ends rack the beer into a conditioning tank and attach a spunding valve. Allow the beer to mature, testing the carbonation level once in a while.
When conversion occurs, beer doesn't need to be artificially carbonated with sugar or CO2 injection. The maltotriose that forms during conversion carbonates ale and lager during conditioning. Over carbonation and bottle bombs can happen if the beer is artificially carbonated.
 
Thanks man. I did a stem mash because of the adjunct grains. Started low temp. Do you reckon that's not necessary?
That is GREAT!! You want to start out with low temperature to preserve enzymes not so much because of the specialty grain.
 
Thanks man. I did a step mash because of the adjunct grains. Started low temp. Do you reckon that's not necessary?
You probably ended up with a highly fermentable wort by doing that, which would result in a lower FG, and a less balanced beer. So yes I think you'd be better served by doing a standard infusion mash at 154 or so
 
That is fantastic that you are a brewer in training! Who is training you and who wrote the books that you are learning from?
Use Wulf's triple decoction method or Hochkurz double decoction method for making authentic ale and lager or use the step mash method for making pseudo ale and lager. Strike and target temperature are useless for making ale and lager because enzymes do not work from high temperature to low temperature.
Purchase high quality, under modified, low protein, malt. You are in Europe, use the data under the EBC (European Brewers Congress) column on a malt spec sheet and purchase malt that is Kolbach Index 40 and lower with a protein content of 10% and less. Weyermann and Gladfield produce under modified, malt.
Purchase balanced hops. The percentage of Beta has to be stamped on a container of hops, not only Alpha. Purchase hops that have an Alpha-Beta percentage within a decimal point. The closer the numbers the finer and more balanced hops are.
You may not have the equipment for the decoction method but may be for step mashing. Using high quality, malt start out with an acid rest at 37, 38 to allow the natural pH of the malt to stabilize mash pH before activating the enzymes. Add sour malt to reduce pH. After pH is good add boing water to rapidly increase mash temperature to 60 and rest the mash for 40 minutes, conversion occurs. Beta is responsible for conversion. After 40 minutes use boiling water to rapidly increase mash temperature to 67 and rest the mash for 20 minutes for saccharification. After 20 minutes use boiling water to rapidly increase mash temperature to 70 and rest the mash for 10 minutes. Skip mash out. Alpha will denature by the time the 3rd rest ends. Fly sparge. Skim off hot break as the extract boils and after hot break stops forming add hops. You have carte blanche with the two higher temperatures. Just remember, the higher the temperature the quicker Alpha denatures, and the beer will be sweet and low in ABV, also starch carry over can occur.
When conversion occurs, Beta turns simple sugar, glucose, into fermentable, complex types of sugar, maltose and maltotriose and secondary fermentation takes place. You will need a secondary fermentation vessel. After primary fermentation ends rack the beer off the trub and autolyzed yeast and place the beer into a secondary fermentation vessel. After secondary fermentation ends rack the beer into a conditioning tank and attach a spunding valve. Allow the beer to mature, testing the carbonation level once in a while.
When conversion occurs, beer doesn't need to be artificially carbonated with sugar or CO2 injection. The maltotriose that forms during conversion carbonates ale and lager during conditioning. Over carbonation and bottle bombs can happen if the beer is artificially carbonated.
There are so many things wrong with this advice I don't even know where to start...

"Strike and target temperatures are useless for making ale and lager" is a totally nonsensical statement, all ales and all lagers require target temperatures for the first mash step, and every target temperature also requires a strike temperature

Modern malts are not undermodified and don't require decoction or step mashing at all to achieve good conversion. A step mash improves fermentability and allows the brewer to better control the ratio of simple sugars to dextrines in the finished wort which can improve head retention, body, and mouthfeel.

Both alpha and beta amylase are responsible for conversion

You don't need an acid rest if you use a pH calculator and add the correct amount of sauermalz, phosphoric acid, or lactic acid.

Beta does the exact opposite of what you said - it chops up long chain polysaccharides into short chain "simple sugars"

A secondary vessel is not needed at all. For pro brewers a bright tank may be beneficial though

If you attach a spunding valve after secondary, there will be no CO2 to spund - fermentation is finished

Carbonation does not occur because of maltotriose and depending on which yeast strain is used, it will have already been fermented during primary. Artificially carbonating fully fermented beer is the BEST way to prevent bottle bombs
 
Update.

I have decided to take out the Strisselspalt and replace it with HS Zamba Blend. The previous hop combination was too floral, herbal and lime. That's what made it a little one dimensional, I think. See the graphs below. Blue is strisselspalt/ Zamba. The second graph is with Zamba. Wakatu and Motueka (green and red) stay in the mix.

Also, 10% of the grain bill is now a light crystal (Karamelmalt Hell by Steinbach) to add some sweetness. The naked oats malt I shall replace with Crisp flaked torrified oats. The rest stays the same. Final gravity of 1.015 and ABV 4,2% feels fine.

I think I like it... No?
 

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There are so many things wrong with this advice I don't even know where to start...

"Strike and target temperatures are useless for making ale and lager" is a totally nonsensical statement, all ales and all lagers require target temperatures for the first mash step, and every target temperature also requires a strike temperature

Modern malts are not undermodified and don't require decoction or step mashing at all to achieve good conversion. A step mash improves fermentability and allows the brewer to better control the ratio of simple sugars to dextrines in the finished wort which can improve head retention, body, and mouthfeel.

Both alpha and beta amylase are responsible for conversion

You don't need an acid rest if you use a pH calculator and add the correct amount of sauermalz, phosphoric acid, or lactic acid.

Beta does the exact opposite of what you said - it chops up long chain polysaccharides into short chain "simple sugars"

A secondary vessel is not needed at all. For pro brewers a bright tank may be beneficial though

If you attach a spunding valve after secondary, there will be no CO2 to spund - fermentation is finished

Carbonation does not occur because of maltotriose and depending on which yeast strain is used, it will have already been fermented during primary. Artificially carbonating fully fermented beer is the BEST way to prevent bottle bombs
There are so many things wrong with what you wrote that I don't even know where to start.

Let's start out with you learned how to make homemade beer that was renamed real ale when CAMRA was invented back in the 70s, the granddaddy of BJCP.

"Strike and target temperatures are useless for making ale and lager" is a totally nonsensical statement, all ales and all lagers require target temperatures for the first mash step, and every target temperature also requires a strike temperature"

I'm bad. I should have written, strike and target temperature are useless except in single temperature infusion where only Alpha is activated to release simple sugar, glucose, which is the main sugar in homemade beer.
Blasting malt with water close to or above Pasteurization temperature denatures enzymes until mash temperature reduces. Enzymes do not work backwards. That is why strike and target temperature are useless for producing ale. You told a brewer to soak malt at 154F, that is great. You told the brewer to denature Beta and the other low temperature enzymes that make ale and lager. Maybe the brewer wants to make ale instead of homemade beer.

"Modern malts are not undermodified and don't require decoction or step mashing at all to achieve good conversion. A step mash improves fermentability and allows the brewer to better control the ratio of simple sugars to dextrines in the finished wort which can improve head retention, body, and mouthfeel."

You are correct, modern, high modified malt isn't used with the step mash or the decoction method, it would be a waste of time. The malt only needs to be soaked in hot water for an hour to release glucose. But at 140F conversion occurs but you skip the step. Again, you told a brewer to soak malt at 154F.
Isn't under modified, malt, modern malt, anyway? The malt is bagged up in the malthouse at the same time when the high modified, malt is bagged up. Malt became modern when the IOB was founded. The malt spec sheet was invented at that time. After that brew masters didn't need to test malt anymore. There are three columns on a malt spec sheet from the IOB, EBC and MBAC?. Charlie Papazian came up with the BS story about modern, high modified, malt before you were thinking about making beer. He said that when the malt was invented the decoction method became antiquated. A decoction brewer would have to have rocks in their head to use the malt. Heritage malt is 34 to 51 KI, the malt should be decoctioned to take advantage of the high quality, under modified, malt, 34 to 40 KI, in the bag.
The step mash improves fermentability? Isn't simple sugar, glucose, the most fermentable sugar on the planet? In the industry where single temperature infusion is used mash is soaked at 149 to 150F because Alpha releases the highest volume of glucose from simple starch amylose in an hour at the temperatures. Grain distillers use the temperatures. Why waste time on the step mash method if single infusion does the job?
You are correct, the step mash or the decoction method doesn't need to be used for conversion, only the conversion rest at 140F is needed and even high modified, malt will convert.
A and B limit dextrin is wrapped up in complex starch, amylopectin. For dextrinization and gelatinization to occur mash is boiled. Alpha liquefies the starch releasing the sugar. Limit dextrin are tasteless, nonfermenting types of sugar. Limit dextrin, pectin, and albuminous protein are responsible for forming head, body and mouthfeel. When you make beer, you throw away amylopectin with the spent mash. Amylopectin is the richest starch in malt. You paid for it why not use it?

"Both alpha and beta amylase are responsible for conversion"

Of course, because without the simple sugar, glucose that Alpha releases during liquefaction Beta has nothing to convert. Beta turns glucose into fermentable, complex types of sugar maltose and maltotriose.

"Beta does the exact opposite of what you said - it chops up long chain polysaccharides into short chain "simple sugars"

That is hilarious! Beta has nothing to do with starch, Alpha does. Starch is a polysaccharide which means there is a bunch of different sugars in it. Alpha liquefies simple starch amylose and releases glucose. Do you know why it does it? Glucose is one of three building blocks of life, and our spit contains amylase, and the enzyme works like wildfire at 98.6F. It is called Alpha for a reason the enzyme is connected to life, from the beginning. What in nature lives at the temperatures that you tell people to use?
During liquefaction Alpha liquefies amylose at a 1-4 link in the starch chain. When that happens the name changes. The one piece is called the reducing end and the other piece is the nonreducing end. The reducing end contains 1-4 links that Alpha continues to liquefy until all of the 1-4 links have liquefied, or Alpha denatures and sweet, nonfermenting, simple sugar is left. Depending on how high the rest temperature is the quicker Alpha denatures leaving the reducing end longer. The beer will be sweeter and lower in ABV. The beer you make contains highly fermentable simple sugar, glucose and depending on how high the rest temperature is above 150, sweet, nonfermenting types of simple sugar.

"A secondary vessel is not needed at all. For pro brewers a bright tank may be beneficial though"

Once again you get a bingo because the conversion rest is skipped in home brewing and in grain distillation.
Looking up a recipe and soaking malt in hot water for an hour makes a pro brewer?

"If you attach a spunding valve after secondary, there will be no CO2 to spund - fermentation is finished"

In the beer that you make that is exactly the way it works because after primary fermentation ends there is no reason for using a secondary fermentation vessel because the isn't any fermentable, complex sugar in the wort for yeast to ferment during secondary fermentation.

"Carbonation does not occur because of maltotriose and depending on which yeast strain is used, it will have already been fermented during primary. Artificially carbonating fully fermented beer is the BEST way to prevent bottle bombs"

Yeast rips through glucose during primary fermentation and nothing else. Yeast starts with simple sugar, glucose and works its way up. After primary fermentation ends the beer is racked off trub and autolyzed yeast and placed into a secondary fermentation vessel. During secondary fermentation an enzyme in yeasts converts the disaccharide, maltose back into glucose which yeast uses for fuel, sometimes the beer has to be krausened. After secondary fermentation ends the beer is racked into a conditioning tank where the beer clears, and the yeast converts maltotriose back into glucose and natural carbonation occurs. The beer is transferred under pressure into kegs. You don't need to do any of that stuff because the wort that you make contains only glucose which yeast rips through during primary fermentation because the conversion rest is skipped in home brewing and in grain distillation, where the home brew single infusion method came from.
 
I would do a single infusion mash at 156 with base malt and using 15% flaked oats (and sub in wheat or spelt if you want). No crystal. You want residual mouthfeel and perception of sweetness (wheat will help here). At 4.2% you might find you will want to mash even higher. Hops look fine. Continue to tweak those as you see fit. My 2 cents.
 
I would do a single infusion mash at 156 with base malt and using 15% flaked oats (and sub in wheat or spelt if you want). No crystal. You want residual mouthfeel and perception of sweetness (wheat will help here). At 4.2% you might find you will want to mash even higher. Hops look fine. Continue to tweak those as you see fit. My 2 cents.

Thx!
 
There are so many things wrong with what you wrote that I don't even know where to start.

Let's start out with you learned how to make homemade beer that was renamed real ale when CAMRA was invented back in the 70s, the granddaddy of BJCP.

"Strike and target temperatures are useless for making ale and lager" is a totally nonsensical statement, all ales and all lagers require target temperatures for the first mash step, and every target temperature also requires a strike temperature"

I'm bad. I should have written, strike and target temperature are useless except in single temperature infusion where only Alpha is activated to release simple sugar, glucose, which is the main sugar in homemade beer.
Blasting malt with water close to or above Pasteurization temperature denatures enzymes until mash temperature reduces. Enzymes do not work backwards. That is why strike and target temperature are useless for producing ale. You told a brewer to soak malt at 154F, that is great. You told the brewer to denature Beta and the other low temperature enzymes that make ale and lager. Maybe the brewer wants to make ale instead of homemade beer.

"Modern malts are not undermodified and don't require decoction or step mashing at all to achieve good conversion. A step mash improves fermentability and allows the brewer to better control the ratio of simple sugars to dextrines in the finished wort which can improve head retention, body, and mouthfeel."

You are correct, modern, high modified malt isn't used with the step mash or the decoction method, it would be a waste of time. The malt only needs to be soaked in hot water for an hour to release glucose. But at 140F conversion occurs but you skip the step. Again, you told a brewer to soak malt at 154F.
Isn't under modified, malt, modern malt, anyway? The malt is bagged up in the malthouse at the same time when the high modified, malt is bagged up. Malt became modern when the IOB was founded. The malt spec sheet was invented at that time. After that brew masters didn't need to test malt anymore. There are three columns on a malt spec sheet from the IOB, EBC and MBAC?. Charlie Papazian came up with the BS story about modern, high modified, malt before you were thinking about making beer. He said that when the malt was invented the decoction method became antiquated. A decoction brewer would have to have rocks in their head to use the malt. Heritage malt is 34 to 51 KI, the malt should be decoctioned to take advantage of the high quality, under modified, malt, 34 to 40 KI, in the bag.
The step mash improves fermentability? Isn't simple sugar, glucose, the most fermentable sugar on the planet? In the industry where single temperature infusion is used mash is soaked at 149 to 150F because Alpha releases the highest volume of glucose from simple starch amylose in an hour at the temperatures. Grain distillers use the temperatures. Why waste time on the step mash method if single infusion does the job?
You are correct, the step mash or the decoction method doesn't need to be used for conversion, only the conversion rest at 140F is needed and even high modified, malt will convert.
A and B limit dextrin is wrapped up in complex starch, amylopectin. For dextrinization and gelatinization to occur mash is boiled. Alpha liquefies the starch releasing the sugar. Limit dextrin are tasteless, nonfermenting types of sugar. Limit dextrin, pectin, and albuminous protein are responsible for forming head, body and mouthfeel. When you make beer, you throw away amylopectin with the spent mash. Amylopectin is the richest starch in malt. You paid for it why not use it?

"Both alpha and beta amylase are responsible for conversion"

Of course, because without the simple sugar, glucose that Alpha releases during liquefaction Beta has nothing to convert. Beta turns glucose into fermentable, complex types of sugar maltose and maltotriose.

"Beta does the exact opposite of what you said - it chops up long chain polysaccharides into short chain "simple sugars"

That is hilarious! Beta has nothing to do with starch, Alpha does. Starch is a polysaccharide which means there is a bunch of different sugars in it. Alpha liquefies simple starch amylose and releases glucose. Do you know why it does it? Glucose is one of three building blocks of life, and our spit contains amylase, and the enzyme works like wildfire at 98.6F. It is called Alpha for a reason the enzyme is connected to life, from the beginning. What in nature lives at the temperatures that you tell people to use?
During liquefaction Alpha liquefies amylose at a 1-4 link in the starch chain. When that happens the name changes. The one piece is called the reducing end and the other piece is the nonreducing end. The reducing end contains 1-4 links that Alpha continues to liquefy until all of the 1-4 links have liquefied, or Alpha denatures and sweet, nonfermenting, simple sugar is left. Depending on how high the rest temperature is the quicker Alpha denatures leaving the reducing end longer. The beer will be sweeter and lower in ABV. The beer you make contains highly fermentable simple sugar, glucose and depending on how high the rest temperature is above 150, sweet, nonfermenting types of simple sugar.

"A secondary vessel is not needed at all. For pro brewers a bright tank may be beneficial though"

Once again you get a bingo because the conversion rest is skipped in home brewing and in grain distillation.
Looking up a recipe and soaking malt in hot water for an hour makes a pro brewer?

"If you attach a spunding valve after secondary, there will be no CO2 to spund - fermentation is finished"

In the beer that you make that is exactly the way it works because after primary fermentation ends there is no reason for using a secondary fermentation vessel because the isn't any fermentable, complex sugar in the wort for yeast to ferment during secondary fermentation.

"Carbonation does not occur because of maltotriose and depending on which yeast strain is used, it will have already been fermented during primary. Artificially carbonating fully fermented beer is the BEST way to prevent bottle bombs"

Yeast rips through glucose during primary fermentation and nothing else. Yeast starts with simple sugar, glucose and works its way up. After primary fermentation ends the beer is racked off trub and autolyzed yeast and placed into a secondary fermentation vessel. During secondary fermentation an enzyme in yeasts converts the disaccharide, maltose back into glucose which yeast uses for fuel, sometimes the beer has to be krausened. After secondary fermentation ends the beer is racked into a conditioning tank where the beer clears, and the yeast converts maltotriose back into glucose and natural carbonation occurs. The beer is transferred under pressure into kegs. You don't need to do any of that stuff because the wort that you make contains only glucose which yeast rips through during primary fermentation because the conversion rest is skipped in home brewing and in grain distillation, where the home brew single infusion method came from.
What if I take pilsner malt and mash it at 149 to produce wort, split it into two fermenters and fermented half with pilsner yeast and half with german ale yeast, all in my own home?

Now I've produced an ale, a lager, and both are homemade beers using a single mash step which utilized both beta and alpha amylase at the same time to produce wort with a mixture of glucose, maltose, maltotrios, and a number of more complex polysaccharides.

Then I take both my ale and lager which are fully fermented and then I add corn sugar and carbonate them in a keg.

I can and have done all these things many times, its a crazy world out here. 😊
 
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Dude I just tried this beer and it was awful. It tastes like they use a bunch of liquid extract and like a pound of white wheat and like 3 lb of crystal 40 then used raisins as hops
 
Dude I just tried this beer and it was awful. It tastes like they use a bunch of liquid extract and like a pound of white wheat and like 3 lb of crystal 40 then used raisins as hops
I'm curious what the taste difference is between a beer brewed with liquid extract vs all grain?

I have done a number of brewing challenges in my brew club of "extract vs all grain" brewing the same style and extract beers win just as often.

I think the belief that malt extract is an inferior product is antiquated and misguided. Great beers can be made with extracts

It sounds like you're describing the beer as just too malty?
 
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