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New Issues Determining DI pH

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Big Monk

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I have been, over the last few days, running my usual tests of new malts to determine DI pH. Last night I tested some Weyermann Pale Pilsner and tonight some Weyermann Vienna.

Last night I expected something between 5.7-5.9 for the Pils. After mashing at 150 °F for 20 minutes I had near full conversion (11.4 out of 11.8 °Bx) and a DI pH of 5.3. Very weird. I was thinking it was maybe a bad batch.

Tonight I tested the Vienna. Same deal. So I decided to check the pH of the distilled water. It tested at 4.4.

This is aimed squarely at AJ or Martin: What effect does a distilled water pH that low have on the Grist/DI pH? How can I reverse engineer the ACTUAL DI pH for the malt from the distilled water pH and the measured Grist pH?

Usually my distilled water has a much higher pH, in the 6ish range.
 
Maybe your probe has failed. I know where you can get a new meter real cheap.

I don’t think that’s it. The distilled water, however is a much lower pH than normal.

EDIT: I don’t discount what you are saying Dave, but given that it cal’d properly before, I doubt it.
 
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It would be unusual for DI water to drop below 5.8 pH on its own. That number is pretty much dictated by atmospheric CO2 concentration achieved in the DI water given sufficient time (LDPE jugs are near the top of gas-permeable containers)...

Cheers!
 
It would be unusual for DI water to drop below 5.8 pH on its own. That number is pretty much dictated by atmospheric CO2 concentration achieved in the DI water given sufficient time (LDPE jugs are near the top of gas-permeable containers)...

Cheers!

Which makes it all the more unusual.

Let’s, for the sake of argument, call this a hypothetical situation and say that realistic or not, the water measured at 4.4.

How then could I use that measurement (DI Water = 4.4 pH) and the measurement of the 100% Vienna test Grist (DI Grist pH = 5.3 pH) to deduce the DI Grist pH for DI water with a normal pH?
 
DI water at equilibrium with the air will, theoretically, have a pH between 5.7 and 5.6 for CO2 partial pressures in the range 0.0003 to 0.0004 atm. It's more likely that you would see something in the low 6's and indeed that is what you say you typically do observe. Thus 4.4 is completely unreasonable. It's worth mentioning that CO2 can pass through RO membranes to some extent so if you have source water that is alkaline with low pH...It's also worth mentyioning that it is very difficulty to measure the pH of nearly pure water as its resistivity is so high. To do it properly one uses special buffers which include salts to increase the conductivity without shifting the pH much (the small pH shift is compensated for in formulation of the buffer). The same salts are then added to low conductivity samples and the pH can be measured. STOP PRESS. That's the way Hach used to advocate doing it. They now have a new electrode especially for pH measurement in low conductivity solutions which works by virtue of large junction area. They don't seem to sell the special buffers any more.

But I don't think that's the problem. The question was "What effect does a distilled water pH that low have on the Grist/DI pH?" First let's address the question "What effect does a DI water pH that low have on the Grist/DI pH?" The answer is none. But you don't have DI water, you have distilled water. The effect of distilled water on mash pH is the same as with any other water. The pH realized when malt is mashed with this water depends on the titration curves of the water and the malt. In simpler terms the end result will depend on the relative alkalinities of the malt and the acidity of the water (for this water, assuming it's pH to really be 4.4, is quite acidic). The acidity of DI water is 0. The acidity of DI water exposed to atmospheric CO2 is tiny. In fact it isn't even acidic. The alkalinity of pure water is about 2.5 ppm as CaCO3 and that of water exposed to atmospheric CO2 about 1.8. In other words, the acidity/alkalinity of DI water used to make these test mashes should not be a factor.

Now the DI pH of Weyernanns Pils malts is between 5.6 and 5.8. You observed 5.3, a shift of 0.3 - 0.5 relative to what is reasonable. The first buffering coefficient for these malts is between 30 and 40 mEq/kg•pH. Let's go in the middle and say the pH shift is 0.4 and the buffering 35. The water would have had to supply 0.4*35 = 14 mEq/kg acid. If the ratio was 2L/kg (about a quart per pound) then the acid supplied by each liter would have had to have been 7 mEq/L. That makes your distilled water equivalent to DI water to which someone has added 0.7 mL of 88% lactic acid (roughly 10 N) per Liter.

There appear to be two possibilities here. Someone rinsed your still with strong acid and didn't rinse it or your pH electrode is shot. Which do you think the more likely? I would run the stability check on that electrode before going any further with it.

This question can't be answered as DI water doesn't have a pH that low. It has a pH of 7 (at 25 °C). So what Weyermann floor pils should have a DI mash pH around 5.6. 5.3 is way out of whack. T
 
DI water at equilibrium with the air will, theoretically, have a pH between 5.7 and 5.6 for CO2 partial pressures in the range 0.0003 to 0.0004 atm. It's more likely that you would see something in the low 6's and indeed that is what you say you typically do observe. Thus 4.4 is completely unreasonable. It's worth mentioning that CO2 can pass through RO membranes to some extent so if you have source water that is alkaline with low pH...It's also worth mentyioning that it is very difficulty to measure the pH of nearly pure water as its resistivity is so high. To do it properly one uses special buffers which include salts to increase the conductivity without shifting the pH much (the small pH shift is compensated for in formulation of the buffer). The same salts are then added to low conductivity samples and the pH can be measured. STOP PRESS. That's the way Hach used to advocate doing it. They now have a new electrode especially for pH measurement in low conductivity solutions which works by virtue of large junction area. They don't seem to sell the special buffers any more.

But I don't think that's the problem. The question was "What effect does a distilled water pH that low have on the Grist/DI pH?" First let's address the question "What effect does a DI water pH that low have on the Grist/DI pH?" The answer is none. But you don't have DI water, you have distilled water. The effect of distilled water on mash pH is the same as with any other water. The pH realized when malt is mashed with this water depends on the titration curves of the water and the malt. In simpler terms the end result will depend on the relative alkalinities of the malt and the acidity of the water (for this water, assuming it's pH to really be 4.4, is quite acidic). The acidity of DI water is 0. The acidity of DI water exposed to atmospheric CO2 is tiny. In fact it isn't even acidic. The alkalinity of pure water is about 2.5 ppm as CaCO3 and that of water exposed to atmospheric CO2 about 1.8. In other words, the acidity/alkalinity of DI water used to make these test mashes should not be a factor.

Now the DI pH of Weyernanns Pils malts is between 5.6 and 5.8. You observed 5.3, a shift of 0.3 - 0.5 relative to what is reasonable. The first buffering coefficient for these malts is between 30 and 40 mEq/kg•pH. Let's go in the middle and say the pH shift is 0.4 and the buffering 35. The water would have had to supply 0.4*35 = 14 mEq/kg acid. If the ratio was 2L/kg (about a quart per pound) then the acid supplied by each liter would have had to have been 7 mEq/L. That makes your distilled water equivalent to DI water to which someone has added 0.7 mL of 88% lactic acid (roughly 10 N) per Liter.

There appear to be two possibilities here. Someone rinsed your still with strong acid and didn't rinse it or your pH electrode is shot. Which do you think the more likely? I would run the stability check on that electrode before going any further with it.

This question can't be answered as DI water doesn't have a pH that low. It has a pH of 7 (at 25 °C). So what Weyermann floor pils should have a DI mash pH around 5.6. 5.3 is way out of whack. T

Thanks AJ. I’ll check my equipment. This was a new issue for me as I normally measure in the historical wheelhouse for these malts when testing them for pH.

Full disclosure: I had everything packed up before I decided to test the actual water pH so I did it with some spare ColorpHast strips from my kit.
 
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Which makes it all the more unusual.

Let’s, for the sake of argument, call this a hypothetical situation and say that realistic or not, the water measured at 4.4.

How then could I use that measurement (DI Water = 4.4 pH) and the measurement of the 100% Vienna test Grist (DI Grist pH = 5.3 pH) to deduce the DI Grist pH for DI water with a normal pH?

That would be impossible because knowledge of the water's pH alone is insufficient unless it is 7 or close enough to 7 to ne sure that the waters alkalinity/aidity is near 0.
 
I normally measure in the historical wheelhouse
???
Full disclosure: I had everything packed up before I decided to test the actual water pH so I did it with some spare ColorpHast strips from my kit.
This explains the wild measurement. You can't rely on pH strips, especially in a low ionic strength environment, to give you anything other than a rough idea as to what pH actually is.
 
???
This explains the wild measurement. You can't rely on pH strips, especially in a low ionic strength environment, to give you anything other than a rough idea as to what pH actually is.

In this case historical wheelhouse means I typically measure DI pH for the malts in the normal range from Weyermann.

Thanks for the responses AJ
 
Oh. I was picturing an exotic brewery in some neat old mill or something.

Haha. You know, after years of reading your posts, I think I finally have a handle on your online delivery and sense of humor.

I’m in the market for a new meter, although I’m hardly surprised. What’s surprising is that the cheap unit I own last this long.
 
This is distilled water and not deionized RO water?

If its RO, some source water can have significant CO2 content that preferentially passes through the membrane into the RO product water. That excess CO2 would off-gas in time if the water was exposed to the atmosphere, but it would be retained if the water was in a pressure tank.

I have no explanation if the water is distilled and was produced in a still.
 

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