New house, outdoor brew area/bar

[Miller4]

Just bought a house and am excited to start planning and redoing the outdoor patio area. The current area is falling down and way too short. Plan on rebuilding with my keezer on the inside of the shed with 4 or 5 taps inside, and an additional 3 taps run through the wall to access from the garden patio. There are already well established hops growing which I’m excited about, no clue on variety. Sadly there is ALOT to do inside the house before getting to this project. Any thoughts or recommendations welcome for the planning stage.

 

[Miller4]

Looks like the electrical is going to take some good updating. I’m far from an electrition but the shed wiring looks janky even to me. My goal is to run a 50amp subpanel to the shed, for future use of lights, small tools, air compressor and a ceramic kiln. There are a couple abandoned circuits in my main panel. Any electrical savvy folks know if my main panel could support a 50amp subpanel? Hopefully will be able to get an electrician out to consult soon, but just wanted to start thinking about things.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm not an electrician either. So...
With your 200 Amps service there should be enough for a 50 amp breaker to a subpanel. You've got plenty of empty spaces in the main panel.

Given the build of the shed, you probably need GFCI circuitry in there. GFCI main panel breakers can break the bank so to speak, depending on the manufacturer. Instead you may want to opt for putting a 50A spa panel in the shed, that will take care of the GFCI too for all for $75-100.

For your kiln, make sure you can supply the amperage needed. Kilns can be very high power, 50A, 12000W is just for small ones.

Looks like a nice project, good luck!

 

[Miller4]

Thanks for the response. With the spa panel would everything past the panel be gfci protected? No need for gfci outlets? The kiln I have is a 30 amp, had it hooked up at the last house on a 30amp circuit and worked well, just a small one to keep my ceramic work non stagnant.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks for the response. With the spa panel would everything past the panel be gfci protected? No need for gfci outlets? The kiln I have is a 30 amp, had it hooked up at the last house on a 30amp circuit and worked well, just a small one to keep my ceramic work non stagnant.

YVW!
There are plenty of threads covering all sorts of electrical installations for brew rooms etc. Now every one tends to be a unique case dealing with its own issues. So it would be good to have a pro give you the skinny, but uh... $$$$$, even if you do some or most of the work yourself. It would be good to have a friend or family member in that trade.

Yes, that spa panel is your GFCI protection for everything past it. They come in various amperages, 50, 60 and 75A being the most common, some go higher, so cover your need bases. Another advantage of the local sub panel that if you pop a breaker you won't need to dash into your home to flip it back.
Now some larger machines, motors, and especially inductive loads don't play well with GFCIs, and may benefit from their own non-GFCI circuit. So keep that in mind.

Also consider if you want to brew electric in your shed...

 

[Miller4]

Awesome, will definitely have to think about electric brewing if I’m going to be running power out there anyway. I’m sure it would be nice once it gets down to 0 degrees outside. At this point I’m decently set up with my current brew system though. Simple keggle and cooler for 10 gal batches. Here is a photo of why I want to start fixing the wiring. The wires hang at just below my head height and go into the shed and are spliced with electrical tape, no junction boxes or anything.

 

[IslandLizard]

Par for the course! ^

Probably been like that for many years, and never had a problem. Why would there be anything wrong with that?

Make sure whoever sees this doesn't have the power to condemn your electrical system! Like Code Monkeys and overzealous Contractors. Tread carefully around them.

 

[grampamark]

FWIW, those Wadsworth panels are obsolete. Not unsafe, but breakers are not as readily available, and more expensive, than current production equipment. Depending on what you need/want to do to the house before tackling the shed you may want to consider an electrical upgrade.

Disclaimer: I’m not a licensed electrician but my side gig is home repair/remodeling. I do a lot of residential electrical work. I've seen a lot worse than what's in the OP’s pictures but bringing that service into the 21st century is definitely worth considering.

 

[Miller4]

Thanks for the reply, we are definitely looking into some serious electrical upgrading. House was built in 1900 and there multiple additions to the house. The additions seem to have “newer” electrical but a lot of the main house has ungrounded outlets and older wiring. Other than looks is there any reason to not run surface mounted conduit inside the house, to avoid a lot of fishing and ripping up drywall? Just brainstorming at this point.

 

[grampamark]

Thanks for the reply, we are definitely looking into some serious electrical upgrading. House was built in 1900 and there multiple additions to the house. The additions seem to have “newer” electrical but a lot of the main house has ungrounded outlets and older wiring. Other than looks is there any reason to not run surface mounted conduit inside the house, to avoid a lot of fishing and ripping up drywall? Just brainstorming at this point.

In a house that old there is probably every generation of electrical distribution hardware ever used since the dawn of residential electrification. The additions may have modern devices installed but if there isn't a continuous ground back to the panel that third hole in the receptacles is for entertainment purposes only.

You may be able to use conduit if you don't mind looking at it; there's also a product called Wiremold which conceals surface mounted wiring and is a little more attractive than conduit. Depending on the state and city you live in there may be some local codes which would limit the use of surface mounting in a residential service. IOW, you might be able to use it to extend a circuit or add a ceiling fixture but not wire the entire house that way.

Given the age of the house and the quality, or lack thereof, of the wiring in your pictures, I’d want to start at the service entrance and replace it all, even if it means taking down drywall/plaster/whatever. I've worked on a lot of older houses which were built and/or remodeled by folks with more enthusiasm than ability. Besides the electrical considerations I’d want to know what else was hiding out of sight. Good luck.

 

[IslandLizard]

My previous house was from 1918. Tube and knob electrical system with several patch-ons. Anything more recent had been done with regular Romex some on their own circuits, such as the kitchen.

I had talked to several electricians and they all said that existing tube and knob was grandfathered in and thus up to code... Lucky us. Now some of the wire's insulation had become brittle, especially where they fed into steel wall boxes, and there was no ground on any of those. I felt better replacing all the tube and knob with Romex, but it was a big, big job.
Hooking up a fan with lights in the kitchen took me 3 days, just to get electric to that point with switches/dimmers on the wall (where they belong IMO). That kitchen was partially under a 2nd floor porch that had been enclosed 10-20 some years before.

I think you can run surface conduit wherever you want. I really hate looking at it though, especially going across the ceiling. Now in older farmhouses etc. the old round steel conduit can have charm. Or use the modern flat surface mounted plastic conduit. But keep the feeds at right angles with walls don't run it under other angles, that looks hideous.

 

[Miller4]

Been working slowly at the house on weekends and after work, here is the state of the kitchen. Took all the lath off as well to access wiring and plumbing but didn’t get a picture.

 

[crazyjake19]

Looking at your panel, it looks like you have three electric heaters (baseboard I assume), and possibly two more to the left with breakers that have been taped off. Are any of those heaters used over the winter? If not, I'd say you've got adequate capacity for a 50 amp subpanel. I also have an electric range, dryer, and water heater, and have a 60 amp sub panel in my garage without issues.

As grampamark mentioned, the Wadsworth panels are not unsafe but are difficult to find breakers for. Home Depot's website had them available at one point, and I believe Connecticut Electric makes replacement breakers for them, though probably not inexpensive.

When adding the subpanel in your shed, I would remove the overhead wire and run that underground instead, especially since it's only a few feet across.

As far as how much re-wiring you want to do in the house, that depends on your budget and how much you need to change things.

 

[passedpawn]

View attachment 629132 View attachment 629133 Awesome, will definitely have to think about electric brewing if I’m going to be running power out there anyway. I’m sure it would be nice once it gets down to 0 degrees outside. At this point I’m decently set up with my current brew system though. Simple keggle and cooler for 10 gal batches. Here is a photo of why I want to start fixing the wiring. The wires hang at just below my head height and go into the shed and are spliced with electrical tape, no junction boxes or anything.

Flying splice alert!

 

[Miller4]

Thanks for the response. Regarding the panel, we decided to have it totally swapped out. Seems to make sense while we are doing the kitchen/rest of the house. Plus I was looking at breakers and they are $40+ vs $4 for a new panel. It’ll be a while still but I think that will be the plan to go underground vs overhead for the Sub-Panel to the shed. Here are a couple pictures of where I’m at for the kitchen. At one point the goal was to get enough done to move in before our second son comes along, due in 2 weeks.... I think the new goal is by Christmas/new year.

 

[Miller4]

Also the hops went went crazy and are doing well for no water and 100 degree plus days this last week. Hopefully by next year I’ll have more time to spend on the outside of the house.

 

[Miller4]

The pear tree also went crazy, need to trim it off the fence and parking area but going to wait until after we pick them. Might have to try making perry with the extras.

 

[Miller4]

The hops really took off this last week. This is maybe 1/25th of how many cones are on the plant. Hopefully I am going to dry and freeze until I get time to brew someday. No clue on variety, Would a whirlpool or dry hop addition be best to see how they are? They are starting to smell good.

 

[passedpawn]

The hops really took off this last week. This is maybe 1/25th of how many cones are on the plant. Hopefully I am going to dry and freeze until I get time to brew someday. No clue on variety, Would a whirlpool or dry hop addition be best to see how they are? They are starting to smell good.View attachment 640996 View attachment 640997 View attachment 640995

Wow, so nice. I'd make an IPA and use them for both late hops and dry hop. Don't use any other hop. Then you'll know how the contribute for both.

 

[Miller4]

Quick house update.
Got all of the old circuits taken out of the service panel besides three that we are keeping as temporary power while working. Electrician is coming in two weeks to put in a brand new panel with service wire and run new grounds. From that point on all old wiring will be abandoned and we will have better peace of mind knowing nothing is hiding. After getting into the attics and crawl spaces and tearing some walls down to the studs there were too many flying splices and open junction boxes and hidden junction boxes. Going to try and sell the old breakers.
Brewing related my wife picked a bucket of hops and we got them dried, total of 9oz and you can barely tell we even picked any off the plant. It is loaded.

 

[Miller4]

New panel installed, circuits soon to follow. Things are coming along slowly but surely. Sometimes it feels more slowly though.

 

[Miller4]

Downstairs of the house complete. New panel is going to have plenty of room to run some power out to the shed in the future. After inspection, I will finally be able to start putting the kitchen together.

 

[Miller4]

Finally got rough in inspection done and passed, at first it was a hassle figuring out where to get permits from. The inspection office is 120 miles away. But now it’s going smooth. Exciting to start making headway, feels like electrical has been going on for too long.

 

[Miller4]

Plumbing and electrical is done downstairs, finally able to start putting walls back up.

 

[Miller4]

Almost time to start putting a kitchen together. We’ve had the appliances sitting in the other room since July, so it’ll be nice to get them moved over and get the cabinets up.

 

[501irishred]

Exciting times to be sure! So much of the beginning of any remodel is in the “bones”, and it’s tough to explain to the uninitiated how much work went into getting to that point. You're about to the stage of bringing the magic to the surface!

 

[Miller4]

Almost starting to look like a kitchen. Still a ways to go but had a productive weekend.

 

[RoguePixels]

Really nice work so far.

 

[Miller4]

Quick update on the kitchen. Coming along slowly still. Having fun still though. Maybe can get some good progress done with my wife off work for at least the next couple weeks.

 

[Miller4]

More slow progress, but at least some progress.

 

[Miller4]

A little more tonight. If the dishwasher looks funny that’s because the countertops are 42” instead of the normal 36”. The next kitchen i think I’d put the drawer underneath the dishwasher for ease of loading and unloading.

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[Miller4]

Small progress, more was accomplished upstairs than in the kitchen.

 

[Miller4]

Progress has gone to a super slow crawl, but was able to get a little plumbing done in the cellar and started on the backsplash last week.

 

[Miller4]

Extremely slow progress, has been over a month since getting any work done, but took advantage of a personal business day and got some time put in. Dry fit the sink, still have to finish the countertops, but finally got the hole cut, which took a bit of internal back and forth until I was confident I had it all lined up right. I’ve never installed a sink from scratch so was a little hesitant to make the first cut. This project is turning into a lot of firsts.

 

[Genuine]

Great progress so far! I have a basement brew space that I've been wanting to re-organize and see where else I could put my keezer/ make the flow better. Keep up the great work! It's inspiring!

 

[Miller4]

More progress today, soon flooring work will begin. Then will start working on the upstairs bathroom. It feels like maybe someday I will even brew again.

 

[Miller4]

Wait, I’m still working on this house? Yea, like I said slow and steady. Having to move from our current house by May has put the fire back under me. Here is a photo dump of what I’ve been working on. Mostly upstairs bathroom and starting on sanding the floors. Still have a bit to go, but back into making progress.

 

[Miller4]

Fairly successful day and a half of sanding. I learned that floor drum sanders aren’t designed for 6’6” people. Need to get an edger sander rented and finish sanding. Time for a beer.

 

[Miller4]

Before and after two coats down on the upstairs bedroom. Strategically decided to leave some of the “character” in the 120 yr old floor. Not having to sand for another day definitely wasn’t the deciding factor.

 

[Miller4]

Finished the kitchen and dining room flooring this morning. Still have to get trim down, but feels good to have it out of the way.