new home curse...6infected batches and counting

[billtzk]

thanks billtzk. As far as the switching cleaners and sanitizers & replacing equipment I've tried those. I agree, I'll suck it up and pack the water for next batch in order to eliminate that variable. I figure I'll bring enough for the entire bath though, not just top-up. I'm also changing to glass carboy for primary instead of plastic bucket style primary.

With regard to chloramine, I didn't suspect it was the culprit. My question was if that treatment would kill wild yeast or bacteria that could be causing issues from tap water. After all, it is treated, isn't that what it does?

Yes, that is what it does, but it does not eliminate 100% of all bacteria. The water that comes out of your tap isn't sterile.

It doesn't, for example, kill all parasites either. Cryptosporidium, caused by fecal contaminated water, is fairly resistant.

 

[Pascal]

I didn't suspect "sterile" or even sanitized for that matter. However, if water is my issue, it would seem odd (at least to me) that something that persistent could be readily present in such treated water. Prominent enough to kill 6 batches from the 2gl top-up?

 

[day_trippr]

I'd definitely get the tap water tested. But, in the mean time, it seems a simple experiment might prove enlightening.

If you have some malt extract handy, boil up some tap water and make up an average OG test batch, just a couple of cups of worty stuff. Divide it in three, place one third in a sanitized container and immediately cover with sanitized foil. The next third, mix in a quarter cup or so of untreated tap water and immediately cover tight with sanitized foil. Finally, place the last third in a sanitized container, but leave it exposed for, say, 15 minutes or so, then seal with sanitized foil.

Now you have a control and two test samples. Let 'em simmer at room temp and give them a look every so often to see what happens...

Cheers!

 

[bigbeergeek]

I'd definitely get the tap water tested. But, in the mean time, it seems a simple experiment might prove enlightening.

If you have some malt extract handy, boil up some tap water and make up an average OG test batch, just a couple of cups of worty stuff. Divide it in three, place one third in a sanitized container and immediately cover with sanitized foil. The next third, mix in a quarter cup or so of untreated tap water and immediately cover tight with sanitized foil. Finally, place the last third in a sanitized container, but leave it exposed for, say, 15 minutes or so, then seal with sanitized foil.

Now you have a control and two test samples. Let 'em simmer at room temp and give them a look every so often to see what happens...

Cheers!

Fun. I like it.

 

[billtzk]

Yeah, that seems like a stretch to me too. That's why I suggested complete disassembly of everything that can be taken apart. Airborne contaminants might be more plausible.

What is your lag time after pitching before fermentation starts? Can you describe your process?

day_trippr's idea seems like a good one too. Don't brew beer, just make some wort like you would for a yeast starter.

 

[Pascal]

Gold!

It just so happens that my order of DME arrived today.

I will be sure to update in a few days after tying this little test out.

Pascal

 

[Pascal]

@billtzk: If you read my original post, I've brewed a few hundred batches with a loss of around 3. I know how to clean and sanitize, not trying to "stretch" anything too much here.

Lag time for active yeast activation: around 4-10 hours, depending on batch & yeast
Process is described in post.

 

[billtzk]

I overlooked some elements of your first post, but I believe you. No offense intended. It's just that sometimes we can be blind to what we are most familiar with, especially when it is routine.

 

[Pascal]

Agree indeed. I appreciate your advice. (and sorry if that last response was a bit snappy)

What worked for years is no longer working, so, adapt. But it hasn't worked so far. Perhaps it's what I'm doing, perhaps not. Don't know yet! Looking forward to trying the test outlined by day_tripper. I just finally received my homebrew order today but now I'm so nervous about brewing a batch I figure a test is best.

 

[DannPM]

I have no experience with mold infections or the potential off-flavors they can produce (knock on wood) but I would have a professional come in an test for mold in your home, for your health and secondly your beer. Sounds like you may have a lot of spores floating around in your household air, and that's not good for anything.

No amount of equipment sanitizing will prevent mold spores from the imminent collision of ambient air reaching your sterile wort at some point before fermentation begins.

 

[biestie]

Regarding the experiment discussed a few posts back... I might alter that slightly. And the only reason im suggesting this is so you can convince yourself you're likely dealing with a problem other than infection. I wouldn't bother sanitizing anything for one of your samples. Make a gallonish of wort, add a little top up water from your tap just as you would've with your previous batches, siphon it through the same hoses you normally would into your fermentor (basically, make it contact everything you normally would). Put it in the same spot you ferment your beer and don't pitch yeast. If you don't have the same rip roaring infection in a few days, you have a different problem (not an infection).

If I read your original post correctly, you're diagnosing infection after less than a week. With a proper pitch of yeast, an infection in that short of a period would be next to impossible to notice. You have a couple hundred billion yeast cells going to war with few thousand cells(?) of whatever the infection is.

Now clearly you have something going on. You're correct in saying that your water's different. I'd buy di water and use that to rule your water out. Also, is it possible that the temperature in the room you're fermenting is is too high? Might sound like a strange question with you living in Canada, but if you've never had temperature get away from you in a fermentation it can be all kinds of nasty.

Last, and this is an oh by the way, you note that you're transferring to a secondary after less than a week. If you're going to use a secondary (which most here, and most experts would say you shouldn't) that's way too early.

 

[biestie]

Oops, missed the part about not being able to buy water. I'm no expert on this, since I use ro from the grocery store, but read up on water and get an analysis of your local water. Perhaps buying 6 or 7 gallons isn't practical, but is 2 or 3 so you could dilute?

 

[Clementine]

Just my two cents, I think the problem is in your sanitizing routine. Somewhere above you said you rinse, I would say this combined with the unboiled tap water top off is the biggest source of infection. The number of spores of nasties in water would far exceed the amount that could drift in through a black mold infection. I say pre-boil your top up water and use starsan or Idophor and don't rinse.

On black mold my house in Hawaii had such bad black mold problem that my wife had a never ending flu for three weeks, we only pin pointed it when she had to go on a business trip and got better. Although the mold could not be seen it was in all the A/C ducts. We had to get the military housing people to come clean the condenser out and I took all the vent covers off and sprayed 10% bleach solution through all the ducts. Through all of that I was brewing and no problems. I even had a swamp cooler that grew all sorts of yuck while on an extended business trip but the beer inside was fine.

As stated before the exposure to airborne contaminates from post boil and bottling can't even come close to the exposure from rinsing your gear after sanitizing and topping up with unboiled water.

Also you have my total respect for perseverance!

Clem

 

[D_Ranged_Eskimo]

Just my two cents, I think the problem is in your sanitizing routine. Somewhere above you said you rinse, I would say this combined with the unboiled tap water top off is the biggest source of infection. The number of spores of nasties in water would far exceed the amount that could drift in through a black mold infection. I say pre-boil your top up water and use starsan or Idophor and don't rinse.

On black mold my house in Hawaii had such bad black mold problem that my wife had a never ending flu for three weeks, we only pin pointed it when she had to go on a business trip and got better. Although the mold could not be seen it was in all the A/C ducts. We had to get the military housing people to come clean the condenser out and I took all the vent covers off and sprayed 10% bleach solution through all the ducts. Through all of that I was brewing and no problems. I even had a swamp cooler that grew all sorts of yuck while on an extended business trip but the beer inside was fine.

As stated before the exposure to airborne contaminates from post boil and bottling can't even come close to the exposure from rinsing your gear after sanitizing and topping up with unboiled water.

Also you have my total respect for perseverance!

Clem

He mentioned earlier that he switched to Star San and the no rinse approach for a batch with the same, lousy results.

It seems as though it has to be water and/or air if you have purchased new equipment, used 6 different, independent brewing senarios, and landed the same results.

The boiling all water contacting your wort technique sounds like the next best step before you start shelling out money for air and water quality testing.

If that doesn't work, grabbing whatever amount of bottled water you can haul on the bus/4 stories sounds like your final step before some serious quality testing becomes a must.

And that 3 test batch system with a control is solid!!! Good luck fixing this nightmare!

 

[2brew1cup]

Ive had this problem. House was probably built on a sacred indian burial ground. So naturally you can expect issue like brett infections and poltergeists.

 

[Pascal]

Thanks folks, I'm going for a test this weekend. I'll post what I'm up to, and with any luck in a week we should know what the hell is wrong with this place.

 

[Pascal]

 

[ChillWill]

Last, and this is an oh by the way, you note that you're transferring to a secondary after less than a week. If you're going to use a secondary (which most here, and most experts would say you shouldn't) that's way too early.

Nothing wrong with transferring as soon as fg is hit, there's still plenty of yeast in suspension to clear up. It won't clean up as much as leaving it on the cake but if you're controlling your process enough not to create too many off flavours etc then it's not a big issue.

 

[BryanJ]

I'm curious if your beer is actually infected, I haven't seen you post any tasting results before you dump your beer. It seems to me that dumping after a few days of fermentation is premature especially when you are not seeing signs of any infection. Knowing you use Nottingham and I have used it a few times in the past few months and the smell from fermentation has been incredibly bad. I haven't lost any of these batches to infection.

If it is infected then your water is the problem and look into doing full boils.

 

[edecambra]

The OP mentioned that he used a "strong" fresh mixture of star san and sani brew. I remember reading somewhere that you should absolutely use it to recommended dilution and making it too strong could add too much of the acid in your brew (assuming you dont rinse, which you shouldn't with star san. But you have a lot of advice to sift through here and that makes it difficult, any way you could brew outside?

 

[Pascal]

@BryanJ, There was also visual signs of infection on the batches that went down the drain but the smell was the clear indication. The first, which was left the longest, had what actually looked like dry yeast piled all over the top after around a week or so (Id have to check notes for accuracy here on timing). It was the rotten smell of sea food that was a clear sign of something terrible. I use Nottingham for most of my brews and the recipe I was using was one of my favorites that I've done many times. As I described in the first post, it seemed like the fermentation was going nuts for a while and then over night it went from clear (looking through the fermenter) to completely opaque with an overpowering stench.

As noted earlier I did not dump two of the kit batches but transferred them to kegs and put them under pressure to try and save them from what I suspect was infection setting in. I suspected infection was setting in because: A) the smell. While it was not as overpowering and terrible as the first batch, it was clearly present and this is a terrible stench I have not encountered in my brewing experience using the same recipe and ingredients. It also seemed to be getting stronger. B) White moldish formations developing on the top of the wort. Keep in mind this is three or so days into fermentation with a full pitch of coopers dry yeast in a 5gl batch. The rapid fermentation had subsided after day 2, smell was setting in and undesirables seemed to be forming on the surface.

For these two batches though, they didn't seem dead, just desperately in danger of going the way of the previous. As such, I kegged these two, as noted earlier, and I'm very happy to say they are on tap and not too bad. Sorry, they do not taste off or infected. They taste as good as beer kits can I suppose, and right now I'm grateful for that.

I’ve boiled enough water for a batch I plan on brewing tomorrow and its sitting in the fridge cooling.

@Edecambra, no worries, star-san is to spec

 

[Polboy]

Just one extra thing, i have forced air heating/cooling system in the house and never feel comfortable to bottle/pitch yeast or open fermenter in general when its running, maybe its because i have a vent just over my working station in the basement but i feel like blowing hot air over my beer its not a good idea so i close the vent each time, just something to think about

 

[billtzk]

So how is that latest batch doing, Pascal? I presume by now you've brewed, pitched, and it should be fermenting.

 

[Pascal]

Sorry for the delay, new job and new city has been taking up all of my time and I only got to brewing this weekend. I started the last Brew House kit I had yesterday and it's bubbling away nicely. As advised, I boiled water the day before and put it in the fridge over night, then used it for top up water. I currently have mash water heating and will be brewing an American Wheat today, also with pre-boiled water for the top up at the end.

I had intended to conduct the little experiment outlined by day_trippr but I have not gotten to it. However, I did have an unintentional experiment I figure might be good to share. I use a britta filter for drinking water that I leave in the fridge. I left a glass with a few inches of water from the britta on the counter by the sink for a few days. After a few days on the counter the filtered tap water in the glass had grown a sort of slime on the glass and the water itself had a redish brown colour to it. I'm not sure if the photos are helpful or interesting but looking from the bottom of the glass you can see the colour of what had been clear filtered tap water.

 

[Pascal]

Also, after boiling the water for top ups, there appears to be considerable sedimentation at the bottom of the pot. Enough that the bottom gallon is murky when poured out. The water is boiled so I'm not worried about contamination (from the apparent sediment) but I am wondering about off flavors. The City's water profile is as follows:

Edmonton
Calcium 48
Magnisium 14
Sodium 8
Chloride 4
Sulfate 60
Alkalinity 120
PH 7.7
Total Hardness 170

Any thoughts?

 

[Pascal]

If it is not clear from my above post regarding the glass on the counter my thought on this is that I've never seen clean water in a clean glass start to grow in a few days, never mind enough to change colour. If you left it out for a few weeks then all bets are off! But a few days? It wasn't covered so it could have been anything in the air or water but I figure it is likely a sign of the issues I've been having with my beer.

 

[rockfish42]

The sediment is probably just precipitated carbonates in the pot.

 

[bigbeergeek]

That's kinda gross.

 

[brewingmeister]

I know you said you didn't want to lug water up 4 flights of stairs but how about a gallon test batch of store bought water vs tap water? Maybe a starter size to test?
I've never experienced growth on a glass of water left out like that and I've lived in over 7 different places in 3 different states in the last decade.
If nothing else just to rule some things out.
-cheers

 

[D_Ranged_Eskimo]

That is disgusting. I've never seen water start to grow and turn that color, and that was only a couple of days? There's something fishy in that H2O.