new herms system, am I pumping too fast?

[ehk089]

THATS WHAT SHE SAID!!...really though, I made an e herms keggle system over the last month or so and had a fiasco for the first brew day, so I have no baseline for efficeincy. Im using a wilser bag in my mash tun in lieu of false bottom or manifold. I got the impression from the electric brewery website that during mash recirculation, you let that bad boy flow full bore, but it seems to me like it would be more efficient to go slow like a traditional vorlauf. It might not matter at all since im using the bag anyways so I cant over compress the grain bed, but Im wondering what other guys with herms systems do for recirculation of the mash.

 

[FourSwitch]

Let er go 100% you will get a much more even temperature throughout the mash by moving more volume, as well as much more steady heating of the mash.

 

[sillbeer]

I run a similar system to The Electric Brewery and run full bore as well. As stated above, it allows for more steady temps. I really should check my efficiency, I keep coming in higher than expected on my pre boil gravity. I usually forget to check the gravity before I keg.

 

[ehk089]

What about hot side aeration? I plan on submerging the hose in top if the grain bed, but still, no troubles there? I have a Blichmann pump and that sucker can go.

 

[day_trippr]

Pump as fast as the grain bed allows. Submerging the return should avoid HSA (I hope as that's what I do)...

Cheers!

 

[FourSwitch]

The blichman riptide was still around the 7-8GPM range as is the chugger, i would see no issue with running it full out. also to be totally honest i feel that at our scale Hot side aeration has become a much larger boogyman than we need to worry about

 

[Bobby_M]

I never heard of anyone being able to recirc full bore before. Maybe a very coarse crush and 3 lbs of rice hulls? I usually recommend 1 qt per minute.

 

[jcav]

I have a Electric Brewery Kal clone with keggles. I run the recirculation in the mash tun full bore, with the return hose under the liquid level. Works perfect with no issues. Oh yea I do add one pound of rice hulls for every 13.5 gallon batch I make. It definitely helps with recirculation and for keeping an even temp in the mash tun.

John

 

[day_trippr]

I don't recirc at much more than 3 gpm, a bit less than half-bore on an 815pl pump. Right at the threshold of a falling sight gauge level passing below the top of the bed...

Cheers!

 

[sillbeer]

I have a Blichmann 20 gallon kettle with their false bottom. My crush is .038" and I have only had a problem once. I poured all the grain into the mash tun all at once and it created some problems. I just pour a little in, stir, and repeat. My hose is 1/2" ID.

 

[ehk089]

Yeah, what about efficiency? That wouldn’t suffer from circulating fast vs trickle?

 

[sillbeer]

Kal, from The Electric Brewery, runs full bore on his pumps during the mash and he uses 5/8" ID hose if I remember correctly. His setup runs 95% efficiency.

I've always hit or exceeded my pre and post boil gravity numbers and it has resulted in great tasting beer. Should I check my efficiency, probably, I just haven't.

 

[FourSwitch]

I have a mechanical stir arm as well so i may not be the greatest example, but i run my chugger pump full bore and i consistently hit 90s for efficiency

 

[devils4ever]

I have a gas HERMS setup and I run my pump at about 40% capacity. My first attempt I ran it at full bore and I had issues with the grain bed getting sucked down to the bottom and the flow slowed to a trickle.

I assume this all depends on the mash tun geometry and many other factors. I would say run it as fast as you can and back off the flow if you have to.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Why would one want to pump full open through the HERMS? Wouldn’t pumping slower maximize the heat transfer through the hex, and then to the mash? If you didn’t have a false bottom, or a well designed manifold, wouldn’t you be promoting channeling of the mash? These are questions, not critiquing anyone’s methods. I’ve always had a gas operated HERMS system, but until now didn’t see the advantage. I do see the advantages of stepping. When I used my HERMS I always ran about 40-50%. I was afraid of compacting without incorporating a grant. I remember Palmer’s diagram of single pipe liquid flow dynamics and the over sparking of the grain near that pipe, and the under sparging of the grain elsewhere. I know this isn’t sparging. I would think the principals do apply. I just put together a 130qt MLT cooler with a Wilser bag. If I can get away with only a 90 inside of my bulkhead like the OP would be great.

 

[sillbeer]

Just as I posted this a couple days ago, I brewed today and ran into a couple issues. I milled at .038" and added the grain to my mash tun with the pump running. After I got all the grain in and stirred up my full bore volume slowed down to a trickle and stopped. I scrapped the top of the false bottom with my spoon and got it going again. It took a couple minutes but it cleared up and continued like normal. I'll continue to mill at .038" but I will stop my pump and let the grain settle. Also, this mash seemed a little thicker than normal at 1.25. I usually use 1.5 quarts per pound which would have resulted in an extra 1.2 gallons of water.


On another note, I read recently that step mashing isn't as critical with modern grains so I decided not to step mash today (now I'm having a hard time finding the article. I'll post if I run across it again.) My pre boil volume came in at 13 gallons and I managed a 1.047. I was shooting for 15 gallons and 1.051. This mash was for 90 minutes at 148 degrees. My post boil volume was 11 gallons and gravity was 1.057. Should have been 1.059. Anywho, I'm sure it'll be good drinking beer, Fuller's ESB that I copied from here http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25410

All in all, I need to brew more and compare my notes.

 

[day_trippr]

Why would one want to pump full open through the HERMS? Wouldn’t pumping slower maximize the heat transfer through the hex, and then to the mash? If you didn’t have a false bottom, or a well designed manifold, wouldn’t you be promoting channeling of the mash? [...]

We can all agree the limiting factor on the high side is the lautering performance, and there's a huge spread from top tier FBs through lesser lights through manifolds to braids. Pump too fast for the hardware and grist combination and "you're going to have a bad time".

That said, assuming a robust herms system that isn't losing massive amounts of energy or plagued by channeling, the higher the flow the more uniform the mash temperature, and the smaller the differential between herms exit temperature vs mash target temperature. I can see a distinct difference in top vs bottom mash bed temperatures at slower flow rates, hence I push right up to what the batch can handle...

Cheers!

 

[Dog House Brew]

We can all agree the limiting factor on the high side is the lautering performance, and there's a huge spread from top tier FBs through lesser lights through manifolds to braids. Pump too fast for the hardware and grist combination and "you're going to have a bad time".

That said, assuming a robust herms system that isn't losing massive amounts of energy or plagued by channeling, the higher the flow the more uniform the mash temperature, and the smaller the differential between herms exit temperature vs mash target temperature. I can see a distinct difference in top vs bottom mash bed temperatures at slower flow rates, hence I push right up to what the batch can handle...

Cheers!

Thanks, I figured one would need a nice manifold/FB to make things uniform. I’ve always used manifolds in my LT. I’ve never had any issues with recirculating. Your points make sense. Hopefully I won’t have any issues with my new MLT. I’d like to not use a grant, as I would be concerned of losing some temp there. I’ll do a test mash for canning starter wort and opening it up. Thanks

 

[FourSwitch]

We can all agree the limiting factor on the high side is the lautering performance, and there's a huge spread from top tier FBs through lesser lights through manifolds to braids. Pump too fast for the hardware and grist combination and "you're going to have a bad time".

That said, assuming a robust herms system that isn't losing massive amounts of energy or plagued by channeling, the higher the flow the more uniform the mash temperature, and the smaller the differential between herms exit temperature vs mash target temperature. I can see a distinct difference in top vs bottom mash bed temperatures at slower flow rates, hence I push right up to what the batch can handle...

Cheers!

This . ^^^