new eBrewing setup, eBIAB or eHerms?

[ewrzesinski]

Yes - all good points indeed. The Colorado system utilizes a hard sided SS basket with a mesh bottom. My pump is recirculating constantly during the Mash. At the conclusion of the Mash (I do 75 min as a standard, you simply raise the basket via the hoist and let it drain. I will also push down on the grain to make sure all of the liquid drains out, but I do not sparge. I haven't found it necessary to sparge as I run efficiencies in the mid 70s. My brew day is now much simpler and I have less setup and cleanup than before and can sit back and relax and drink beer most of the day. The controller keeps my Mash within +/- 1° for the entire Mash and the boil is very easy to control. If I prepare ahead of time, I can be done in 4 hours too. I love my eBIAB system and wouldn't think about going back to 3 vessel. I am also brewing better, more consistent beer due to the increased temp control I have now during the Mash.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Here's the sketch.View attachment 563152

This system is really intriguing. I was trying to figure out if there was a way to do a 2 vessel system and this is the idea I couldn't quite come up with.

I'm planning to go electric sometime over the next 12 months and this will certainly be under consideration.

 

[LittleRiver]

For the most realistic brewing experience I say HERMS. BIAB is nice and easy but doesn't emulate the pros. I like that aspect when I brew.

It's cool that you enjoy that aspect of it. Nothing wrong with that. There are many ways to find enjoyment in brewing.

However, defining a "realistic brewing experience" is arbitrary and subjective. You find happiness in emulating the techniques of some modern mass producers. I say some because there are mass producers who still practice open fermentation.

Since it's a much older technique (as old as 11,000 years), would emulating the guys who still do open fermentation be an even more "realistic" brewing experience? For some it might.

I find happiness in elegance and simplicity. I don't care what kind of gear mass producers are using to make their beer. I care whether or not I can make beer that tastes better than theirs. If I can achieve that with a single vessel and a fabric bag, then am I not beating them at their own game? I have no desire to emulate them.

For me, the same logic holds true when comparing home brew systems. So it's BIAB for me.

 

[MrBaloo]

Brundog... I love the efficiency of your weight bench right next to the keezer.... !!!

 

[Sconnie12]

It's cool that you enjoy that aspect of it. Nothing wrong with that. There are many ways to find enjoyment in brewing.

However, defining a "realistic brewing experience" is arbitrary and subjective. You find happiness in emulating the techniques of some modern mass producers. I say some because there are mass producers who still practice open fermentation.

Since it's a much older technique (as old as 11,000 years), would emulating the guys who still do open fermentation be an even more "realistic" brewing experience? For some it might.

I find happiness in elegance and simplicity. I don't care what kind of gear mass producers are using to make their beer. I care whether or not I can make beer that tastes better than theirs. If I can achieve that with a single vessel and a fabric bag, then am I not beating them at their own game? I have no desire to emulate them.

For me, the same logic holds true when comparing home brew systems. So it's BIAB for me.

Like many here I would love to go pro someday. Using a three vessel system is better training than a BIAB system.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Like many here I would love to go pro someday. Using a three vessel system is better training than a BIAB system.

What if the pro system you go to is a Brewha 3 barrel rig?

 

[Exception13]

However, I actually decided to just add a brewing sink in my brew room which has dramatically decreased the total brew day time. I just clean the mash tun out while the wort boils, and I stay mindful of hop additions. So by the time I get done with the boil I already have the rest of the system clean.

Here's a pic, because we all like to show off our bling!

Heeeyyyy..... I have that same sink. ;-)

Seriously, beauty system.

Cheers!

Chris

 

[Blazinlow86]

I have a Kal clone. I love it. You won't regret it

 

[marjen]

So this is the current plan. I am going to try and put something together based on @TexasWine's idea of using 2 vessel with an Exchillerator counterflow wort chiller also being used to heat the water for the mash tun. I will only need to have a single element in the BK/HLT, will set up temp probes in each kettle, use 2 riptide pumps to move the water and wort and try and control it all with a raspberry pi based controller using CraftbeerPI. Not sure if I am going to actually build the controller or just buy a hose head.

So I have the basics for the room completed. I have a 6 ft SS table. I have a SS sink, just need to get it all plumbed and get the electric upgraded to handle the 240v outlet. These will be my first order of business. Once that is done and the room is good to go, I will order 2 custom kettles from spike. one will be the BK/HLT the other the mash tun.

In the meantime I am going to do a lot of research on the control side. It really should not be a complicated setup. Control for 2 pumps, 1 heating element and 2 thermometers. I plan to control it through my iPad. Its probably going to take the rest f the year to get the whole system together but at least I have a plan.

If for some reason the counterflow heater/chiller just doesn't work out I guess I would just add a third vessel.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

So this is the current plan. I am going to try and put something together based on @TexasWine's idea of using 2 vessel with an Exchillerator counterflow wort chiller also being used to heat the water for the mash tun. I will only need to have a single element in the BK/HLT, will set up temp probes in each kettle, use 2 riptide pumps to move the water and wort and try and control it all with a raspberry pi based controller using CraftbeerPI. Not sure if I am going to actually build the controller or just buy a hose head.

So I have the basics for the room completed. I have a 6 ft SS table. I have a SS sink, just need to get it all plumbed and get the electric upgraded to handle the 240v outlet. These will be my first order of business. Once that is done and the room is good to go, I will order 2 custom kettles from spike. one will be the BK/HLT the other the mash tun.

In the meantime I am going to do a lot of research on the control side. It really should not be a complicated setup. Control for 2 pumps, 1 heating element and 2 thermometers. I plan to control it through my iPad. Its probably going to take the rest f the year to get the whole system together but at least I have a plan.

If for some reason the counterflow heater/chiller just doesn't work out I guess I would just add a third vessel.

Please post updates. I'm really interested in this approach. I'd love to follow your build process and experiences with the rig.

 

[marjen]

So I am finally getting closer to getting my indoor electric brewery working. Just need to finally get the circuit breaker installed in the panel. All other work is done. It’s been a long road that involved building a new house, lol.
The initial plan was to go with the idea from TexasWine above, 2 vessels plus and external germs coil via the exchilerator seen above. I had spike build 2 custom kettles and I am going to use a blichmann brecommander to control it all.
But now I am wondering if it just might be easier to do 2 vessel recirculating biab? I would have only 1 heating element in the boil kettle. Send wort through the bottle of the kettle, the pump and into the top of the mash tun. Then out of the bottom of the mash tun, through another pump and into the top of the boil kettle as indicated in the image above.
First of all any reason this would not work? Any downsides? I think this would be easier connections wise than adding the xchilerator to the mix. Although one thing I am confused on would be how much water to add to the boil kettle to start the process? In regular BIAB i use about 8.5 gallons for a 5.5 gallon batch. Wondering if this would be enough. I really just need to make sure there is enough wort covering the heating element in the boil kettle.
Thoughts?

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

View attachment 664169

So I am finally getting closer to getting my indoor electric brewery working. Just need to finally get the circuit breaker installed in the panel. All other work is done. It’s been a long road that involved building a new house, lol.
The initial plan was to go with the idea from TexasWine above, 2 vessels plus and external germs coil via the exchilerator seen above. I had spike build 2 custom kettles and I am going to use a blichmann brecommander to control it all.
But now I am wondering if it just might be easier to do 2 vessel recirculating biab? I would have only 1 heating element in the boil kettle. Send wort through the bottle of the kettle, the pump and into the top of the mash tun. Then out of the bottom of the mash tun, through another pump and into the top of the boil kettle as indicated in the image above.
First of all any reason this would not work? Any downsides? I think this would be easier connections wise than adding the xchilerator to the mix. Although one thing I am confused on would be how much water to add to the boil kettle to start the process? In regular BIAB i use about 8.5 gallons for a 5.5 gallon batch. Wondering if this would be enough. I really just need to make sure there is enough wort covering the heating element in the boil kettle.
Thoughts?

Absolutely. What you're describing is Kettle RIMS. The main difference between K-RIMS and a standard RIMS setup is that you're using the kettle to heat the wort, not a RIMS tube. Most people who do K-RIMS do a full-volume mash with no sparge. Volumes would be very similar to a BIAB although you'll get high grain absorption that BIABers who squeeze.

If you look up the manual for the Blichmann BrewEasy, you'll see that it's the same setup except they use one pump and gravity. The toughest part of K-RIMS is balancing the flow between the MT and the kettle. Blichmann's solution (and what I plan to do) is to use an autosparge that regulates the flow back into the MT. The you manage the overall recirculation rate by manually setting the flow rate from the MT to the kettle. The autosparge will match it automatically.

Some other things to consider:

• I plan to use a bag and a BrewHardware BIAB false bottom so that I have easier cleanup.
• You'll need to measure the temp for your controller. I think most people measure the temp coming out of the kettle. I have mine set up that way for recirculating eBIAB anyway.

Just put your full volume into the kettle and heat to strike temp, then pump strike volume to MT. Dough in, vorlauf (if you want super clear wort), then begin circulation. When the mash is done, just drain from the MT to the kettle and start the boil.

If you use the bag, cleanup is just lifting the bag out of the MT and an easy cleanup. Clean the kettle after transfer to the fermenter and you're good to go.

 

[marjen]

Good to know it should work fine. I have two riptide pumps which allow you to set flow rates so hoping i can use these to manually get things flowing correctly. I also plan on using a bag in the mash tun to make clean up easier.

I did watch this video and not sure on a couple of the steps he does, looks similar to what you describe.

 

[haeffnkr]

Hi
For a while I had a kettle rims setup and was not satisfied with the results. Once you get past all challenges that Hwk said above, which I solved, I was not satisfied with my wort clarity out of the mtun. in order to get clear wort you need to recirculate in the mtun and only in the mtun. I ultimately went with a rims tube and could not be happier.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/new-30-rims.665089/#post-8576788

Not trying to poopoo your setup, but ultimately the money and time I spent on the krims I wish I would have just built my current setup... so trying to save you that time and headache.

I am using a lot of lodo techniques and with clear wort my beer has never been better. Maybe your beer goals are different than mine.
YMMV

thanks haeffnkr

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Hi
For a while I had a kettle rims setup and was not satisfied with the results. Once you get past all challenges that Hwk said above, which I solved, I was not satisfied with my wort clarity out of the mtun. in order to get clear wort you need to recirculate in the mtun and only in the mtun. I ultimately went with a rims tube and could not be happier.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/new-30-rims.665089/#post-8576788

Not trying to poopoo your setup, but ultimately the money and time I spent on the krims I wish I would have just built my current setup... so trying to save you that time and headache.

I am using a lot of lodo techniques and with clear wort my beer has never been better. Maybe your beer goals are different than mine.
YMMV

thanks haeffnkr

Did you vorlauf before circulating into the kettle? If your only get clear wort from the mash tun, I'm confused how you don't get clear wort in the kettle at the end...

 

[haeffnkr]

When I ran the pump continually in my krims setup, I never got all the wort filtered though the grain bed in the mtun with krims setup. Thus it was not very clear pre boil wort out the dual kettle setup.
Now I do full volume mashes in my mtun with the rims tube and it is super clear. I continually vorlauf now in the mtun, start to finish mashing, after 90 minute or longer, full volume re-circulation it is again, super clear at the end of mashing. Starting with clear pre boil wort leads to clear post boil wort for me.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

When I ran the pump continually in my krims setup, I never got all the wort filtered though the grain bed in the mtun with krims setup. Thus it was not very clear pre boil wort out the dual kettle setup.
Now I do full volume mashes in my mtun with the rims tube and it is super clear. I continually vorlauf now in the mtun, start to finish mashing, after 90 minute or longer, full volume re-circulation it is again, super clear at the end of mashing. Starting with clear pre boil wort leads to clear post boil wort for me.

You might have had better luck if you'd vorlaufed a quart or two before beginning the recirculation to set the grain bed. If you go straight to recirculation it's like draining your cooler mash tun to the kettle without a vorlauf.

 

[BrunDog]

I know the original intent was single element, but if you go 2-element... a 2 vessel RIMs system blends the best of all worlds in my opinion.

 

[marjen]

So is vorlaufing just recirculating in the mash tun prior to sending the wort to the kettle? If so should it be done at a high or low flow rate. I have the riptide pumps so I can set flow to whatever I want. It also looks like that might be the step shown in the video above before he starts his "infinity" loop?

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

So is vorlaufing just recirculating in the mash tun prior to sending the wort to the kettle? If so should it be done at a high or low flow rate. I have the riptide pumps so I can set flow to whatever I want. It also looks like that might be the step shown in the video above before he starts his "infinity" loop?

Pretty much. You can take the MT outlet to the pump and back into the top of the MT. I plan to gravity drain from the MT, so I just plan to do what I did with my cooler mash tun which is gravity drain into a pitcher which I just pour gently into the top of the MT. For the cooler MT, about two pitchers full would produce clear wort. Best to wait about 5 minutes after dough-in/stirring to let the grain settle, then begin the vorlauf.

At that point you can start the recirculation and nothing but clear wort should get into your kettle. If you just start out immediately recirculating, you will get particulate into your kettle, just as you would if you drained a cooler MT into your kettle without a vorlauf. It's standard brewing process.

 

[marjen]

Pretty much. You can take the MT outlet to the pump and back into the top of the MT. I plan to gravity drain from the MT, so I just plan to do what I did with my cooler mash tun which is gravity drain into a pitcher which I just pour gently into the top of the MT. For the cooler MT, about two pitchers full would produce clear wort. Best to wait about 5 minutes after dough-in/stirring to let the grain settle, then begin the vorlauf.

At that point you can start the recirculation and nothing but clear wort should get into your kettle. If you just start out immediately recirculating, you will get particulate into your kettle, just as you would if you drained a cooler MT into your kettle without a vorlauf. It's standard brewing process.

Thanks its not something I was aware of.

I am thinking the process will look like this.

1. heat full volume of water in BK to strike temp.
2. Open valves, start bumps, start circulating from BK to MT, once up to strike temp shut off pumps, heating element and close valves.
3. Fill mash ton with grains and dough in.
4. Let settle for a min or two, change hoses, start pump to recirculate in mash tun only for 5 mins. Low flow?
5. change hoses back to recirculate between both kettles, start pumps and fire back up heating element. Once hit mash temp start timer.
6. Once mash is complete, stop one pump and close BK bottom valve so all wort drains into the BK.
7. Start ramping BK to boil and start cleaning mash tun.
8. go about business as usual.

Look about right?

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Thanks its not something I was aware of.

I am thinking the process will look like this.

1. heat full volume of water in BK to strike temp.
2. Open valves, start bumps, start circulating from BK to MT, once up to strike temp shut off pumps, heating element and close valves.
3. Fill mash ton with grains and dough in.
4. Let settle for a min or two, change hoses, start pump to recirculate in mash tun only for 5 mins. Low flow?
5. change hoses back to recirculate between both kettles, start pumps and fire back up heating element. Once hit mash temp start timer.
6. Once mash is complete, stop one pump and close BK bottom valve so all wort drains into the BK.
7. Start ramping BK to boil and start cleaning mash tun.
8. go about business as usual.

Look about right?

Yep. I plan to just recirc in the boil kettle while heating to strike, then my strike volume to the mash tun once it's at temp. Then dough in. Alternatively, if you wanted to underlet, you could put your grains in the MT while the strike water is heating/recirculating in the kettle. Then pump your strike water into the MT as a typical underlet.

I'd start pretty slow for your vorlauf recirculation...you could ramp up to your intended total recirculation rate while in vorlauf mode to ensure your grain bed doesn't compact. That way if you have problems, you can stir it and restart the vorlauf.

In general, the process looks sound.

 

[TexasWine]

I have two riptide pumps which allow you to set flow rates so hoping i can use these to manually get things flowing correctly.

You are going to hate brewing, and perhaps even life in general, if you attempt to control a K-Rims system manually with valves.

My previous set up could be used in a variety of configurations, including K-Rims (using a Blichmann auto sparge). I tried it a few times and determined I didn't like it. Cloudy wort, as mentioned above. Splitting the wort volume into two vessels resulted in more heat loss and more sporadic control of the temperature. I just found it to be generally unenjoyable.

Could I have persevered and made it work? Sure. But external HERMS was easy from the get go and allowed me to achieve the brewing best practices that were important to me.

 

[haeffnkr]

Thanks its not something I was aware of.

I am thinking the process will look like this.

1. heat full volume of water in BK to strike temp.
2. Open valves, start bumps, start circulating from BK to MT, once up to strike temp shut off pumps, heating element and close valves.
3. Fill mash ton with grains and dough in.
4. Let settle for a min or two, change hoses, start pump to recirculate in mash tun only for 5 mins. Low flow?
5. change hoses back to recirculate between both kettles, start pumps and fire back up heating element. Once hit mash temp start timer.
6. Once mash is complete, stop one pump and close BK bottom valve so all wort drains into the BK.
7. Start ramping BK to boil and start cleaning mash tun.
8. go about business as usual.

Look about right?

Your process will make beer, yes.

But-
As stated above, by multiple others in this thread, some that have tried this setup, it will painful. It will always need to be watched and fiddled with. You will never be able to leave this setup for an hour while you go do something else.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Your process will make beer, yes.

But-
As stated above, by multiple others in this thread, some that have tried this setup, it will painful. It will always need to be watched and fiddled with. You will never be able to leave this setup for an hour while you go do something else.

That's true if you just try to manage the flow rates of the two pumps manually. If you use an autosparge to keep the MT at a constant level, it'll be as set-it-and-forget-it as any recirculating rig.

 

[marjen]

Ok so lots of no’s on k-rims. I got the breaker installed, wooo! So I fired up the system just to try and understand the brew commander a little bit. I decided to try the external herms route so used the exchilerator as a herms coil. I was messing around with different things so didn’t get a truly accurate picture on ramp up time but within about 40 mins I had the mash tun to 160 degrees. I think if I got it going correctly it would probably be around 30 mins. Think I am going to try this with first brew. I have never done herms and have some questions.

1. What is the most efficient way to circulate? Slow or faster for the MT and the HLT (external).
2. When it comes time to mash in, do I shut coil and pumps off?
3. Why are there less flow issues sending wort through a herms coil back to MT vs sending wort through to a second tank(k-rims)

 

[BrunDog]

The problem with K-rims in terms of wort clarity is that the kettle's wort is not guaranteed to be recirculated back through the grain bed which serves as the filter. If you keep the kettle volume very low (or had a bottom drain), this is mitigated. I'm not sure that clarity is that big of a deal in homebrew - but of course there is a preference thing.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

The problem with K-rims in terms of wort clarity is that the kettle's wort is not guaranteed to be recirculated back through the grain bed which serves as the filter. If you keep the kettle volume very low (or had a bottom drain), this is mitigated. I'm not sure that clarity is that big of a deal in homebrew - but of course there is a preference thing.

I guess I don't understand how you get wort that's not clear in the kettle. People vorlauf routinely to get clear wort, then drain to a kettle when they use a standalone MLT (such as a cooler MT or an insulated MLT like SS Brewtech has). Are you saying they cannot get clear wort either? I never had a clarity problem when I used a bazooka filter and vorlauf on my cooler MLT.

So if I do the same thing, only before circulating into the kettle instead of at the end of the mash, why would I have anything but clear wort in the kettle to begin with? If you insulate your mashtun (which I am doing), you could even do a 5-10 minute recirc with just the MLT and pump at the beginning with very little drop in temp.

I'll admit, I haven't done this, but I'm not seeing how you end up with a wort clarity issue that's inherent in a kettle RIMS rig unless you just jump straight into recirculating (which is a process issue, not a rig issue).

 

[BrunDog]

Recirculating constantly runs the same wort through grain bed, so its continually filtering and improving. Once you take that work to an intermediate holding place like the kettle, the cloudy stuff has a place to stay/settle and not necessarily get recirculated back to the mash tun.

Again, probably not a deal breaker IMO... some swear clear wort matters. So if clear wort is what you are after, you cannot compare K-rims or BIAB to a legit MLT.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Recirculating constantly runs the same wort through grain bed, so its continually filtering and improving. Once you take that work to an intermediate holding place like the kettle, the cloudy stuff has a place to stay/settle and not necessarily get recirculated back to the mash tun.

Again, probably not a deal breaker IMO... some swear clear wort matters. So if clear wort is what you are after, you cannot compare K-rims or BIAB to a legit MLT.

I'll defer to your expertise and experience. I want wort as clear as what I got with my cooler mash tun, bazooka filter and vorlauf (which was not cloudy). I figured that's a worse case result with a continuously recirculating KRIMS with a vorlauf prior to recirculating.