Neipa

[Qhrumphf]

I haven't tried this yet but it's an interesting read. In a nutshell, he is suggesting that you will get better permanent haze by omitting the flaked wheat altogether. The reason being; much of the haze is created by polyphenols and "the higher the percentage of unmalted wheat in the beer, the fewer measured polyphenols, likely from gluten proteins removing them."

http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/

Flaked or malted wheat hasn't made a perceptible impact to me either way.

Damn my good brewing practices producing bright beers!

Lol

 

[motosapiens]

i don't really care about the haze. i get haze that lasts a month or two, but I'm not trying to have haze, and the beer tastes just as good when it finally brightens up. I use london esb yeast, and gradually raise the ferm temp from 67 to 73 (1 degree a day). I add the first round of dry hops 48 hrs after pitching the yeast, when the gravity is down to 1.020-1.025.

to address the original question, I think the 'juicy' description is a combination of hop flavors and mouthfeel. wheat or oats helps give a thicker mouthfeel, and lots of late (and dry) additions of juicy hops helps with the fruitiness. I have used citra, el dorado, amarillo and ekuanot. This year I got some galaxy as well.

a few years ago before I got a thermostat control, i accidentally left the heat jacket on an india red ale overnight during secondary fermentation and warmed it up to high 70's or 80. That beer never cleared (although it tasted fine), which makes me wonder if higher ferm temps might have something to do with the haze.

 

[TimmyWit]

Flaked or malted wheat hasn't made a perceptible impact to me either way.

Damn my good brewing practices producing bright beers!

Lol

Is it possible some of these breweries may actually be adding a protein/polyphenol mix to achieve haze?

http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?66491-Packaging-NE-Style-IPAs

 

[Qhrumphf]

Is it possible some of these breweries may actually be adding a protein/polyphenol mix to achieve haze?

http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?66491-Packaging-NE-Style-IPAs

I know that certain hipstery breweries are adding small amounts of flour, which like polyphenol haze, starch haze tends to be permanent. Protein hazes last a while too.

I hadn't heard of deliberately adding polyphenols but that's something to look into.

That said I'm generally of the "haze is a byproduct not a goal" mindset. Sad thing is that others immediately judge a NEIPA by haze even if everything else lines up. Boohoohoo it's not hazy enough boohoo.

 

[DarthBrewer1]

I aggree with a few posts. Flour and Oats are not needs. Its all in the yeast and hop schedule and water profile. I tend to use a British Yeast that has a higher gravity.

All hops are added at flame out and whirlpool. So you have to add a ton to hit your IBU. In addition you need to dryhop during active fermentation (around 36hrs) high krausen to achieve proper biotransformation. Then add a second dryhop once fermentation is over. Boil to Keg around 14 days.

With the water add for high CLCO(125-150) and low S04

 

[SlitheryDee]

I made something that looked NEIPAish a few months back, but I'm not sure that it qualifies. It had flaked wheat in it because I had some lying around. I used only late and dry hops, but not really in enough quantity for me to think it was really an IPA. Still, the damn thing didn't clear in two months in the fridge and the hop flavor dominated it. It wasn't bad really.

 

[Biscuits]

In my opinion, the biotransformation hops (first hop charge while still fermenting) is what maintains the haze. I took great effort in not drinking it all and letting some sit in the keg for 4+ weeks and it never cleared. I believe the pictures I posted above were a few weeks apart and I just floated this keg last weekend and the last pours were maybe only slightly less hazy.

*Edit: I'd like to also mention that I have made hazy IPAs without any flaked oats/barley and I have used high flocc yeasts...all stayed milk-hazy throughout their time in the keg....granted some of them only last two weeks.,

 

[TimmyWit]

I know that certain hipstery breweries are adding small amounts of flour, which like polyphenol haze, starch haze tends to be permanent. Protein hazes last a while too.

I hadn't heard of deliberately adding polyphenols but that's something to look into.

That said I'm generally of the "haze is a byproduct not a goal" mindset. Sad thing is that others immediately judge a NEIPA by haze even if everything else lines up. Boohoohoo it's not hazy enough boohoo.

I agree. I submitted one of these to one of those local brewery contests last month and it actually won the grand prize which includes brewing a batch at the brewery. But, it ended up dropping more clear than I experienced with some previous batches (different recipes though). I sat down with the brewer and one of the judges to go over the recipe and they felt the same way: "how much do you really ding a beer for being too clear?".

The unfortunate thing is I'm a newb with entering contests so in attempt to communicate the style with the judges, I named it Hazi McHazerson when I registered it which was well before it was brewed. Obviously a name like that sets a certain expectation. If I thought for a minute the beer might actually win, I would have thought that out better . I just figured entering would force me to finally get out that beergun that has been sitting in the box for years.

So far, the most persistent haze I got so far came from a batch with no flaked oats (didn't have them on hand). It did have 13% flaked wheat though and I thought the mouthfeel was great. It started off straight murky but after a few pours ended up with a nice haze that persisted through the keg. Below you can see the difference between that first pour and the remainder of the keg.

BTW, I noticed that title in your sig block. Congrats on that! And it's nice to hear that the haze isn't that important from you. Maybe if/when they write it into the next edition of the guidelines, haze might be listed as "acceptable" rather than "necessary".

 

[Qhrumphf]

In my opinion, the biotransformation hops (first hop charge while still fermenting) is what maintains the haze. I took great effort in not drinking it all and letting some sit in the keg for 4+ weeks and it never cleared. I believe the pictures I posted above were a few weeks apart and I just floated this keg last weekend and the last pours were maybe only slightly less hazy.

*Edit: I'd like to also mention that I have made hazy IPAs without any flaked oats/barley and I have used high flocc yeasts...all stayed milk-hazy throughout their time in the keg....granted some of them only last two weeks.,

What rate are you hopping at?

Because fermentation hopping alone doesn't do it.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I agree. I submitted one of these to one of those local brewery contests last month and it actually won the grand prize which includes brewing a batch at the brewery. But, it ended up dropping more clear than I experienced with some previous batches (different recipes though). I sat down with the brewer and one of the judges to go over the recipe and they felt the same way: "how much do you really ding a beer for being too clear?".

The unfortunate thing is I'm a newb with entering contests so in attempt to communicate the style with the judges, I named it Hazy McHazerson when I registered it which was well before it was brewed. Obviously a name like that sets a certain expectation. If I thought for a minute the beer might actually win, I would have thought that out better . I just figured entering would force me to finally get out that beergun that has been sitting in the box for years.

So far, the most persistent haze I got so far came from a batch with no flaked oats (didn't have them on hand). It did have 13% flaked wheat though and I thought the mouthfeel was great. It started off straight murky but after a few pours ended up with a nice haze that persisted through the keg. Below you can see the difference between that first pour and the remainder of the keg.

BTW, I noticed that title in your sig block. Congrats on that! And it's nice to hear that the haze isn't that important from you. Maybe if/when they write it into the next edition of the guidelines, haze might be listed as "acceptable" rather than "necessary".

Eh. Haze is a hallmark and should be there. It's 3 points though. As far as comps go, far from the end of the world.

Problem is that while appearance is minor for comps, it's not for the average drinker. In most cases it makes clear beer important. In this case, it makes haze important. "People eat with their eyes". I understand why some brewers artificially haze it.

I use about 20% malted wheat (not flaked) amd 6% flaked oats in mine.

 

[Biscuits]

What rate are you hopping at?

Because fermentation hopping alone doesn't do it.

Fermentation hopping isn't going to give you a milky appearance, but it definitely does give you a persistent haze. I've experimented with biotrans hops in beers that normally drop crystal clear for me and they became very hazy, although not milky.

But to answer your question, my typical NEIPA is hopped at a rate about 2 Oz/Gal....I usually use a total of 12 Oz in a 5 gallon batch. 6 Oz total in the kettle and another 6 Oz (split between two charges) in dry hop.

I am only using about 10% flaked oats in conjunction to about the same amount of Golden Naked Oats.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Fermentation hopping isn't going to give you a milky appearance, but it definitely does give you a persistent haze. I've experimented with biotrans hops in beers that normally drop crystal clear for me and they became very hazy, although not milky.

But to answer your question, my typical NEIPA is hopped at a rate about 2 Oz/Gal....I usually use a total of 12 Oz in a 5 gallon batch. 6 Oz total in the kettle and another 6 Oz (split between two charges) in dry hop.

I am only using about 10% flaked oats in conjunction to about the same amount of Golden Naked Oats.

No more persistent than chill haze in my experience.

I think it all comes down to hopping rate. What I've found personally is that your 12 oz/5 gallon rate is a bare minimum. Anything less and the haze isn't persistent. The most persistent I've obtained was at double even that (which was downright pulpy looking).

HOWEVER I've found that an increase in hopping rate gives you the haze, but not necessarily an increase in hop character (or diminishing returns at least).

So it's a choice. I'm not gonna throw a butt ton of hops just for appearance.

 

[Biscuits]

I agree. I don't really want to be adding a pound of hops per 5 gallon batch. However, I can say that even some of the beers that I experimented with became hazy, and persisted to be hazy, with much less than 12 Oz of hops. Granted they weren't NEIPA hazy (milky) but they weren't originally designed to be and it was just a way for me to confirm that biotrans hops indeed contribute to haze.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I agree. I don't really want to be adding a pound of hops per 5 gallon batch. However, I can say that even some of the beers that I experimented with became hazy, and persisted to be hazy, with much less than 12 Oz of hops. Granted they weren't NEIPA hazy (milky) but they weren't originally designed to be and it was just a way for me to confirm that biotrans hops indeed contribute to haze.

What are your fermentation parameters? I haven't noticed an appreciable appearance difference from fermentation hopping (hop character in terms of flavor and aroma certainly different though) from any other form of dry hopping.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

The "juiciness" described in NEIPAs usually comes from, IMO, the hops and the lower bitterness. They're usually lower in IBUs than "standard" IPAs. And they usually have higher amounts of sulfate and chloride to give them a fuller, rounder, softer mouthfeel. The haze doesn't contribute to the juiciness, AFAIK.

Sulfate is restrained in NEIPA. Chloride is the mineral that gets wildly increased.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

No more persistent than chill haze in my experience.

I think it all comes down to hopping rate. What I've found personally is that your 12 oz/5 gallon rate is a bare minimum. Anything less and the haze isn't persistent. The most persistent I've obtained was at double even that (which was downright pulpy looking).

HOWEVER I've found that an increase in hopping rate gives you the haze, but not necessarily an increase in hop character (or diminishing returns at least).

So it's a choice. I'm not gonna throw a butt ton of hops just for appearance.

I disagree about hopping rate. My first NEIPA had 8 oz hops, some flaked oats, some flaked wheat. It was still quite opaque after almost 4 weeks in the keg (see attached pic)

Would it have been that way after 3 months? Who knows....I don't let them last that long. NEIPAs are meant to be consumed fresh.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Eh. Haze is a hallmark and should be there. It's 3 points though. As far as comps go, far from the end of the world.

Problem is that while appearance is minor for comps, it's not for the average drinker. In most cases it makes clear beer important. In this case, it makes haze important. "People eat with their eyes". I understand why some brewers artificially haze it.

I use about 20% malted wheat (not flaked) amd 6% flaked oats in mine.

I don't understand artificially generating haze. I can understand wanting it, since so many people now see a hazy beer and think "yum". I see people post hazy homebrews on FB and people comment "looks tasty" or "looks juicy".

That being said, I don't think the haze is hard to come by. I started out really worried about the haze and read a ton about it. Literally my first attempt was beautifully hazy and very tasty. My second batch won best in show at a local comp. It's not hard. The only thing I can't seem to get is a nice pillowy head to go with it.

My best NEIPAs all have:

7% flaked oats
3.5% flaked wheat
zero early boil additions
about 9 oz hops distributed between 5 min, FO and WP
another 4 oz in one dry hop just as ferm slows (about 20 hours after pitch for me)
1318 yeast
In the keg within 8 days of brewday

Follow that and the haze holds over a month, it really juicy with the right hops, and will impress any fan of the style. I have several friends who regularly road trip out east and bring back trillium, foam, tree house, etc. I told them I was trying to brew as well as them and they laughed. Then they tried my latest beer and said I'm right there with 'em.

 

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

Looks delicious hawk-i-st8!!

 

[Rob2010SS]

Do you guys cold crash and gelatin your NEIPA's? I did gelatin on my first one and I don't think I'll do it again because my first one cleared in about 3 days after being in the keg.

 

[bradleypariah]

Do you guys cold crash and gelatin your NEIPA's? I did gelatin on my first one and I don't think I'll do it again because my first one cleared in about 3 days after being in the keg.

I put my most recent one in the fridge for a couple days before kegging, but I don't really think I needed to. I wanted to burst-carbonate, and I heard it works better if the beer is cold first. I've always considered the clarity of a beer to be more of a presentation thing. It's novel, and that's about it.

The beer is only about four days old right now, and it certainly isn't clear yet. Not sure how long the haze will last, but I've never had one clear up in less than two weeks, if they clear up at all.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yeah I'm not sure what happened with mine but it cleared in literally 3 days. I had to swirl the keg a bit to get the haze suspended again. I'm doing another one this weekend where I'm drastically increasing the CaCl additions so I'll see if that helps. Pretty sure i didn't do the correct additions on my first one

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

looks delicious hawk-i-st8!!

lol

 

[Rob2010SS]

NEIPA number 2 competed today. Increased CaCl to get over 200ppm to try and fix my haze problem. See how it goes.

 

[TravelingLight]

I've been more pleased with mine since I bumped the oats up to 20% of the grist. Otherwise, my grist is fairly simple - 2-Row, Flaked Oats, White Wheat, maybe some carapils. Here's my latest (and best) NEIPA.

 

[motosapiens]

Sulfate is restrained in NEIPA. Chloride is the mineral that gets wildly increased.

at least that's the official popular way to do it. I made two identical batches last year, one with 150/50, and the other 50/150 (sulfate/chloride). Both were delicious. After a couple weeks the higher sulfate version seemed to retain more hop 'brightness'. I'd have to double check my notes, but I think i'm doing 100/160 -ish now, and liking that alot.

Of course I don't really GAF if my beer fits into some particular hipster style. I just want it to taste good to me, and I don't wear skinny jeans.

 

[motosapiens]

Do you guys cold crash and gelatin your NEIPA's? I did gelatin on my first one and I don't think I'll do it again because my first one cleared in about 3 days after being in the keg.

i don't use gelatin in anything, but the yeasts i mostly use (london esb and irish hale) drop pretty darned clear and bright anytime i'm not doing a neipa. I do a cold fender-bender (not really a crash) down to mid 40's or whatever temp my garage is just to get the hop material to settle harder so I can rack into keg or bottles.

 

[TravelingLight]

Do you guys cold crash and gelatin your NEIPA's? I did gelatin on my first one and I don't think I'll do it again because my first one cleared in about 3 days after being in the keg.

I cold crash mine, because I cold crash everything, and I especially don't want one chewy with hop debris like a NEIPA. I do not fin with gelatin though. I use gelatin sometimes on some beers, depending on my end goal. But I would never gelatin fin a NEIPA.

 

[Biscuits]

What are your fermentation parameters? I haven't noticed an appreciable appearance difference from fermentation hopping (hop character in terms of flavor and aroma certainly different though) from any other form of dry hopping.

I usually split my dry hops into two charges. First charge goes in 36-48 hours into fermentation, as it begins to slow. My second charge goes in 3 days before I begin cold crash.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I usually split my dry hops into two charges. First charge goes in 36-48 hours into fermentation, as it begins to slow. My second charge goes in 3 days before I begin cold crash.

Was looking for strain, temp schedule, pitching rate, O2, etc. I follow a similar hopping schedule, just 48-72 hours for first dry hop, earlier and fermentation is still too active for my liking and I end up blowing a lot of the dry hop matter off.

Not sure what's going on. Same protocol as others have posted, same or increased hopping rates, NEIPAs are bright in ~3 weeks (but those didn't last long past that marker so may well have been bright in 4)

Normally I'm good with bright beer quickly. I never need fermenter finings. Only beers that DON'T drop clear fast are lagers because I'm partial to a slow moving extra powdery strain (I should just switch to 3470 like everyone else...) but 6 weeks at 33F and usually good to go.

In this case though...

 

[Biscuits]

Was looking for strain, temp schedule, pitching rate, O2, etc. I follow a similar hopping schedule, just 48-72 hours for first dry hop, earlier and fermentation is still too active for my liking and I end up blowing a lot of the dry hop matter off.

Not sure what's going on. Same protocol as others have posted, same or increased hopping rates, NEIPAs are bright in ~3 weeks (but those didn't last long past that marker so may well have been bright in 4)

Normally I'm good with bright beer quickly. I never need fermenter finings. Only beers that DON'T drop clear fast are lagers because I'm partial to a slow moving extra powdery strain (I should just switch to 3470 like everyone else...) but 6 weeks at 33F and usually good to go.

In this case though...

I have never used finings either and I have always had crystal clear beer. It was frustrating for me trying to figure out how to make a hazy beer...I thought there was some magic involved, but for me the biotrans hops seemed to be the key.

I have used WLP002, ESB yeast (high foc) before which remained hazy throughout it's short life span of 3 weeks...but typically I use WLP008 East Coast Ale yeast. My LHBS only carries White Labs stuff and I am too lazy to drive the extra 15 mins to the other shop to get London II.

Anyway, I set my chest freezer to 64 degrees (ambient; not taped to the fermentor) and I will ramp up to 68 usually 2 or 3 days before the second charge at which time I usually lower the temp again to 65'ish until I cold crash.

My pitching rate is even less scientific than my fermentation temp schedule. I usually use a stir plate to create a vitality starter on brew day. I will get the yeast started before I hit the flame to heat strike water...it is usually about 6 hours before I am pitching yeast.

I don't use an oxygen wand or really do much other than dump the wort into my fermentor to introduce O2, which might explain why your fermentations are so much more vigorous than mine. Mine aren't delayed by any means but I have rarely had much use for a blow off...I am also not sure if there are any differences from atmospheric pressure since I am sitting at 6500 feet.