NEIPA dont’s

[beervoid]

Certain parts of the process can be improved on the homebrew scale, so I actually believe you can homebrew better beer than commercial breweries.

Curious to hear from you which parts you think homebrewers can do better? I can only think of maybe lower whirlpooling temps but that doesn't seem to effect the end result much.

I know what is harder to do better then pro breweries.
- get better hops
- filter with surgeon precision by centrifuge
- dry hop with some sort of hop infusion device and recirculate without any oxygen pickup

All trivial imho to make a great NEIPA.

I would want to add another DON'T to the list if it wasn't mentioned before.

- Don't drink your neipa within 2 weeks post fermentation. Depending on the hops it can really help to bring the juice out to let these beer settle out for at least 1 week after dry hopping but better 2 - 3 weeks.

 

[Dgallo]

I know what is harder to do better then pro breweries.
- get better hops

Home brewers have better availability of hops overall then pro-brewers. I mean Shawn Hill and those guys can get what ever hops and amount of those hops that their hearts desire. Their notoriety makes every farm and distributor want their hops getting brewed there. Most local breweries and those in the 10-30bbl size have a hard time getting hops that are outside their contract with their distributors. They rely heavily on hop exchanges with other breweries. That’s why you see sooo many “collaboration” beers

 

[beervoid]

Home brewers have better availability of hops overall then pro-brewers. I mean Shawn Hill and those guys can get what ever hops and amount of those hops that their hearts desire. Their notoriety makes every farm and distributor want their hops getting brewed there. Most local breweries and those in the 10-30bbl size have a hard time getting hops that are outside their contract with their distributors. They rely heavily on hop exchanges with other breweries. That’s why you see sooo many “collaboration” beers

Better availability yes but I was arguing quality as in they can visit the farms and pick their own lots as opposed to us home brewers buying whatever is left.

Interesting viewpoint on the collab beers.

 

[plazola86]

All these beer pictures look damn good! Here’s some of mine.

 

[plazola86]

@couchsending thanks for the tips. I ferment in Anvil fermenters so getting the beer off the yeast would mean I would have to secondary. Or maybe i could just transfer to the serving keg purged with CO2 and bagged hops inside. I have to think of something to try.

@Dgallo how’s the aroma on your beers?

 

[Dgallo]

@plazola86
They look really good. Only comment would be lack of head on the one but color is real nice.

One thing I’ll always give myself credit for is my aroma. I do genuinely nail that hop out of the bag kind of scent. I feel yeast esters and the right carb always contribute greatly to the overall aroma

 

[couchsending]

@couchsending thanks for the tips. I ferment in Anvil fermenters so getting the beer off the yeast would mean I would have to secondary. Or maybe i could just transfer to the serving keg purged with CO2 and bagged hops inside. I have to think of something to try.

@Dgallo how’s the aroma on your beers?

What’s your keg purging process?

Can you force transfer with very little O2 ingress? Sorry I don’t know the Anvil setup.

If you can, skip the bag. Scott Janish has a nice write up of a dip tube screen he uses instead of bagging. Or you could use one of the floating dip tube devices. Bought one of those a while ago and still haven’t used it.

I’ve avoided dry hopping in the keg as it makes the liquid purging process virtually impossible and in order to get a similar level of O2 you’d have to waste soooo much Co2.

I’ve always wanted to try purging the keg with Co2 from fermentation with loose hops in the keg the whole time. Just not sure if hops sitting exposed to O2 in a warm environment for a week would be detrimental or not.

 

[Dgallo]

Better availability yes but I was arguing quality as in they can visit the farms and pick their own lots as opposed to us home brewers buying whatever is left.

Interesting viewpoint on the collab beers.

Quality should be the same as well. I mean in a way you’re right. Say a farm is known for their genetic producing higher oil contents, than absolutely they have the access to contract directly with them. However As long as you’re getting this years hops and buying from a reliable place that vacuum seals, your hops will most likely be on par.

 

[plazola86]

@couchsending the Anvil fermenters are pretty much just like the SS brewtech buckets. They have a dip tube and a coned bottom to transfer clear beer but no way of getting the yeast out. I fill my keg with sanitizer and push it all out with CO2 (best way to avoid oxygen in the keg I’ve read). I do transfer under CO2 pressure from fermenter to keg and fill to the very top until beer comes out of the PRV.

 

[couchsending]

Quality should be the same as well. I mean in a way you’re right. Say a farm is known for their genetic producing higher oil contents, than absolutely they have the access to contract directly with them. However As long as you’re getting this years hops and buying from a reliable place that vacuum seals, your hops will most likely be on par.

I would disagree with the quality statement to a point. My sister dated someone who was head brewer for one of the AB High End breweries. I talked to him about hop selection a bunch. He said it was amazing the difference some times. Sometimes the same Hop was totally different even on the same farm and harvested the same day. I’ve brewed with a bunch of hops they’ve selected. Some were good, some were definitely different. Their mosaic especially.

All the in demand hops are grown all over the west now. Simcoe, Citra, Mosaic all started on one farm. Now they’re grown in 3 states. Not only does the terroir affect the hop but also the harvest date and even which plant they’re processed in. We’re they heated to much when they were pressed into pellets, etc.

The 2018 Amarillo and Columbus I got from YVH this year literally smells like a tire fire, they’re horrible.

From my experience the Australian hops tend to be pretty consistent and seem to be of almost the same quality as what the better breweries get. They’re always incredibly potent. From what I’ve read they have some of the most advanced hop processing equipment down there.

 

[Dgallo]

I would disagree with the quality statement to a point. My sister dated someone who was head brewer for one of the AB High End breweries. I talked to him about hop selection a bunch. He said it was amazing the difference some times. Sometimes the same Hop was totally different even on the same farm and harvested the same day. I’ve brewed with a bunch of hops they’ve selected. Some were good, some were definitely different. Their mosaic especially.

All the in demand hops are grown all over the west now. Simcoe, Citra, Mosaic all started on one farm. Now they’re grown in 3 states. Not only does the terroir affect the hop but also the harvest date and even which plant they’re processed in. We’re they heated to much when they were pressed into pellets, etc.

The 2018 Amarillo and Columbus I got from YVH this year literally smells like a tire fire, they’re horrible.

From my experience the Australian hops tend to be pretty consistent and seem to be of almost the same quality as what the better breweries get. They’re always incredibly potent. From what I’ve read they have some of the most advanced hop processing equipment down there.

We certainly disagree a lot when it comes to beer and processes. Well of course dude each plants different. Each soil content is different, each farm has a different amount of rainfall, each farm/plants have a different bill of health and exposer to downy or powdery mildew. But have you ever seen hops processed or harvested?

Well trucks hold over a ton of hop material(bines and hops alike) which they are mixed together from one row on the left and one row on the right. then they are placed together until they are ready to be separated. Some get separated right away and packaged up for those brewery’s who want to do wet hops beers. Next the rest are separated from the bines and sent to drying, again getting all mixed around. Once they hit the desired level of moisture they are mostly turn it to pellets (this is for an all in house operation). The Pelleter mixes them again and Mixes material from multiple hops in the same pellet. The entire time they are getting mixed around. Obviously they are all the same variety and from the same farm. Some get then sold directly to breweries but most of them get sold to a distributor and then go out to breweries or HB shops. The reason I know this is because my wife got us a tour of Loftus Ranch in Yakima, Washington during harvest season, when we were out there for our anniversary.

I agree with you in the fact that certain hops plants produce better hops based on genetics just as marijuana or an apple would. But by the time they get to brewers and homebrewers alike they are mixed. The only opportunity for breweries to get better hops is to buy from specific farms that have a reputation for better hops. Which again are mixed from across the farm or the rows that the brewery “claims”

 

[couchsending]

And you don’t question the bias of your source? If I was a hop farm/broker etc. I’d probably tell you the same thing.

 

[ttuato]

Sure.

Grain Bills are for the most part

Rahr 2 Row
- Sometimes blend with Pale Ale Malt
Carafoam
Occasionally 2% Honey malt
Occasionally 4% Carahell
Occasionally I’ll add 1% Caraaroma
- for more color
Brewtan B
Step mash depending on yeast, beer, and malt.
152/162/168
145/162/168


90 minute boil

25-40 IBUs at 60
- Magnum or Hopshot usually

1-2oz at 20
1-2 Oz at 5
3-5oz at 180 WP
- i whirlpool at that temp to prevent DMS reformation more than anything.
All depends on hop variety and ABV

1/2 tab whirlfloc @ 10
Yeast Nutrient at 10

Let as much break settle as possible before transfer to FV

If I do dry hop during fermentation it’s only a small amount right before terminal. Leave at 68-70 for 2 days after terminal. Soft crash to 55-60 for two days to get yeast to flocc. Pull as much yeast as I can. Add 6-10 Oz of dry hops. Sometimes I’ll space the additions, sometimes not. Leave at 58-62 for 4-7 days depending. Crash to 40/45 for 2 days. Transfer to keg.


Don’t generally take pics of my beer. Here’s one from this summer. I think this one won specialty IPA for my state...



View attachment 601325

I think we all need to revisit this pic from @couchsending and ask some clarifying questions:

How in the hell did you get foam like that? I have similar grain bills / mash, IBUs / boil / whirlpool, etc. Two things in your process I dont do: Brewtan B & let break settle. What else am I missing?

You mention double dryhop - once after FG. Since you use brewtan, I assume you are LODO brewer - if so, how are you dryhopping after FG without introducing O2?

 

[Dgallo]

And you don’t question the bias of your source? If I was a hop farm/broker etc. I’d probably tell you the same thing.

Same way you don’t question the bias of treehouse or trillium when they post hop bills and grain bills on their websites and fill recipes in beer mags. I’m done arguing with you. Continue to provide false information to people and argue things with the confidence and language like your an expert even though you genuinely don’t know. Like the comment about sending hills beers out to be tested and They all have a different water chemistry for example. I didn’t bother to comment, but They simply adjust water dude. Very simply. If you know anything about having a well, when water levels in the table change the water chemistry can change greatly. That’s why you see differnt trace elements and amounts of salt from beers to beer. Sure some beers they increase or decrease adjustments to make different beers but their water in their well has much more to do with their beers than their adjustment. I have many conversation with Dan Suarez, who used to be his right hand man. Dan now has hes own brewery 5 minutes from my house.

 

[couchsending]

I think we all need to revisit this pic from @couchsending and ask some clarifying questions:

How in the hell did you get foam like that? I have similar grain bills / mash, IBUs / boil / whirlpool, etc. Two things in your process I dont do: Brewtan B & let break settle. What else am I missing?

You mention double dryhop - once after FG. Since you use brewtan, I assume you are LODO brewer - if so, how are you dryhopping after FG without introducing O2?

It’s part pouring technique and part step mashing among other things...

I’m “lodo” to a point...

I’ve got some SS Brewtech conicals that I’ve just recently had the kids modified to have a 2nd 1.5” TC port added to the lid. Right before terminal I’ll put the pressure transfer fitting on. It has a PRV that’s set to maybe 2 PsI I think. It’s hooked up to a manifold that’s in turn hooked up to Co2. So I can soft crash under pressure. When adding dry hops I’ll turn the CO2 on and create somewhat of a positive Co2 environment. I then open the other 1.5 tc port and dump hops in utilizing a funnel. Put the cap back on, purge headspace a few times and let it roll at 62ish.

This is basically what any pro brewery was doing before hop cannons and what not. Just pumping Co2 through the CIP while they added DH additions.

Got to talk to the former head brewer at Melvin a few weeks ago and he said sensory was always better on dry hops added the old way through the top versus the new device they got for recirulcation which I thought was interesting.

 

[couchsending]

Same way you don’t question the bias of treehouse or trillium when they post hop bills and grain bills on their websites and fill recipes in beer mags. I’m done arguing with you. Continue to provide false information to people and argue things with the confidence and language like your an expert even though you genuinely don’t know. Like the comment about sending hills beers out to be tested and They all have a different water chemistry for example. I didn’t bother to comment, but They simply adjust water dude. Very simply. If you know anything about having a well, when water levels in the table change the water chemistry can change greatly. That’s why you see differnt trace elements and amounts of salt from beers to beer. Sure some beers they increase or decrease adjustments to make different beers but their water in their well has much more to do with their beers than their adjustment. I have many conversation with Dave Suarez, who used to be his right hand man. Dave now has hes own brewery 5 minutes from my house.

His name is Dan..Dan Suarez. I’ve chatted with him over email as well.

Sure I’m not sitting right next to Shaun Hill when he adds salts or acid to water. Haven’t seen his brew logs etc. But if you do your research you can find what malt contributes to a water profile and how the salt additions vary throughout the process. So you can start to come up with a pretty good idea what profiles thy use for each beer if you have them analyzed. I’m 1000% sure it’s not the “well water” that creates the mouthfeel you experience at Hill Farmstead. It’s knowing how to manipulate water and a better fundamental understanding of the intricacies associated with every step of the brewing process. He could make beer feel exactly the same with RO water, guaranteed. Would it be more difficult... sure. The “water from our well” line is pure marketing.

I can brew great (award winning) pale beer with my welll water too. It starts at 240ppm alkalinity, 257ppm hardness, and a TDS of 650... with no dilution. Pretty much the worst beer ever for a light pale beer.

 

[beervoid]

It’s part pouring technique and part step mashing among other things...

I’m “lodo” to a point...

I’ve got some SS Brewtech conicals that I’ve just recently had the kids modified to have a 2nd 1.5” TC port added to the lid. Right before terminal I’ll put the pressure transfer fitting on. It has a PRV that’s set to maybe 2 PsI I think. It’s hooked up to a manifold that’s in turn hooked up to Co2. So I can soft crash under pressure. When adding dry hops I’ll turn the CO2 on and create somewhat of a positive Co2 environment. I then open the other 1.5 tc port and dump hops in utilizing a funnel. Put the cap back on, purge headspace a few times and let it roll at 62ish.

This is basically what any pro brewery was doing before hop cannons and what not. Just pumping Co2 through the CIP while they added DH additions.

Got to talk to the former head brewer at Melvin a few weeks ago and he said sensory was always better on dry hops added the old way through the top versus the new device they got for recirulcation which I thought was interesting.

I've been keeping DO to a minimum by fermenting in kegs with a float tube.
Dry hopping at end of fermentation seems to have helped alot improving flavor.

Now I'm fermenting with Kveik yeasts the time window has become so small I started experimenting with dry hopping after fermentation and adding a bit of sugar in order to naturally carbonate and hopefully pull out any DO that was introduced.

Did you try adding yeast after dry hopping?

I read that yeast only scavenges oxygen in the beginning of their growth cycle.
Does that mean this practice is pointless unless adding fresh new yeast?

How much psi do you put on the co2 in order to create that blanket?

I ferment and serve from the same keg so my batches are small due to hop absorption but this way I can keep DO to a minimum without transferring and purging kegs.
The beer is finished within 2-3 weeks usually and i've never experienced off flavors cause of this.

 

[kevink]

The “water from our well” line is pure marketing.

Of course it is. Does every beer he brews have the same water profile? Definitely not. Any good brewer (and he is one of the best) adjusts the $hit out his his water depending on what beer he is brewing. What percentage of beer is water? I mapped out the geologic formations in his area and planned to get some water from a nearby source to brew some beer, but quickly came to my senses and realized that he is adjusting his water like any other really good brewer. Do people really think he's just pumping that $hit out of the ground and not doing anything with it?

 

[ccous]

Of course it is. Does every beer he brews have the same water profile? Definitely not. Any good brewer (and he is one of the best) adjusts the $hit out his his water depending on what beer he is brewing. What percentage of beer is water? I mapped out the geologic formations in his area and planned to get some water from a nearby source to brew some beer, but quickly came to my senses and realized that he is adjusting his water like any other really good brewer. Do people really think he's just pumping that $hit out of the ground and not doing anything with it?

No, no one thinks that

 

[Sbe2]

It’s part pouring technique and part step mashing among other things...

I’m “lodo” to a point...

I’ve got some SS Brewtech conicals that I’ve just recently had the kids modified to have a 2nd 1.5” TC port added to the lid. Right before terminal I’ll put the pressure transfer fitting on. It has a PRV that’s set to maybe 2 PsI I think. It’s hooked up to a manifold that’s in turn hooked up to Co2. So I can soft crash under pressure. When adding dry hops I’ll turn the CO2 on and create somewhat of a positive Co2 environment. I then open the other 1.5 tc port and dump hops in utilizing a funnel. Put the cap back on, purge headspace a few times and let it roll at 62ish.

This is basically what any pro brewery was doing before hop cannons and what not. Just pumping Co2 through the CIP while they added DH additions.

Got to talk to the former head brewer at Melvin a few weeks ago and he said sensory was always better on dry hops added the old way through the top versus the new device they got for recirulcation which I thought was interesting.

Did you krausen this beer?

 

[couchsending]

Did you krausen this beer?

I think so.. like I said I alternate between krausening and force carb depending on if I have a fermentation I can pull from. I haven’t noticed a significant difference in head retention one way vs the other.

 

[ttuato]

(Deleted - wrong thread)

 

[JAReeves]

These are some tips I got from various websites, podcast, forums, etc... to brew a NEIPA. Few of them can be wrong, and there are a few that conflict each other. I'm getting more and more confused and now I'm thinking that NEIPA isn't something distinct from the classic IPA. It's just an IPA which happens to be more hoppy and smoother.

It’s cool to read about Monkish. Their beers never disappoint. One thing I like as a home brewer is that our water in Torrance fits in nicely with most beer profiles, so all I do is use activated charcoal to scrub out some chlorine. The 7 award-winning breweries within a mile of my house must know something...

Love this discussion on the variables of NEIPA’s. That’s what I love about this site; lots of valuable first-hand experience shared freely.

 

[couchsending]

The water quality report for Torrance is rather interesting that’s for sure.

 

[beervoid]

It’s cool to read about Monkish. Their beers never disappoint. One thing I like as a home brewer is that our water in Torrance fits in nicely with most beer profiles, so all I do is use activated charcoal to scrub out some chlorine. The 7 award-winning breweries within a mile of my house must know something...

Love this discussion on the variables of NEIPA’s. That’s what I love about this site; lots of valuable first-hand experience shared freely.

Mind sharing the report?

 

[ccous]

Mind sharing the report?

Google ‘Torrance California water quality report’

 

[JAReeves]

Mind sharing the report?

Torrance 2016:

Ca_55
Mg_19
Na_97
Cl_98
SO_176
Alk_106(HCO3)
Ph_8.2

 

[Dgallo]

Torrance 2016:

Ca_55
Mg_19
Na_97
Cl_98
SO_176
Alk_106(HCO3)
Ph_8.2

It’s a good start for NE Style. I just tend to like 2:1 ration of ca to so

 

[leesmith]

It’s a good start for NE Style. I just tend to like 2:1 ration of ca to so

You mean Chloride to Sulfate?

 

[Dgallo]

You mean Chloride to Sulfate?

I adjust with cacl so it ends up being both being close to 2:1