NEIPA dont’s

[Baldilocks_Brewing]

Great stuff previous post. I will add some too:

Treehouse DOES dryhop at biotransformation for all hazy beers but not in Bright series. It says so on the back of Bright can back label.

@Moose_MI you mentioned butterscotch in the beer .... diacetyl. You need to do a diacetyl rest, pump up the temp to 72ish for a few days after FG reached. Depending on yeast used this may or may not be a big deal. Cloudwater Brew in UK goes to EXTENSIVE lengths to avoid the diacteyl precusors (VDK). I belive the high dryhopping rates make this worse, hence the grain to glass of 20+ days of big boys mentioned above. (Surprisingly this isn't discussed much on HBT...) Protip - women and children have SIGNIFICANTLY better senses of smell than men. Let one of them do a diacteyl (butterscotch) sniff before kegging. Even though you may not smell it, you will still be able to taste it if it is there. They can spot it From smell and help you avoid a crappy beer.

You don't NEED adjuncts for haze (polyphenol & protein), there is plenty of protein in barley to accomplish this - see Treehouse Julius (well established that this has zero adjuncts). Having said that do NOT focus on haze as a goal - it should only be viewed as a byproduct of the process. Oats/wheat makes haze more pronounced, but more importantly impact MOUTHFEEL - this is what "keeps Shaun Hill up at night" according to an interview he did a while back. (CO2 levels probably more important)

I disagree with the comment that yeast do not make a difference. IMHO they absolutely CAN make a difference when "clean" vs high esters. Brew split batches and try different yeasts - I HATE 1318 in NEIPA and can identify it on smell alone - I learned this by training my nose thanks to help of wife & teen son (see pro tip above). In my experience the esters 1318 overpower the aroma of the hops and all beers smell similar regardless of hops.

Monkish does not do biotrans hops because it "muddles" the hop taste / aroma (see podcast). I agree somewhat but I still do one because Treehouse does, but I also add a second dryhop AFTER cold crashing - just like Monkish does. This way I get best of both worlds.

IMHO - Scott Janish is the best source of info for homebrewers (science research plus HB equipment scale). Supplement his info with your own experiments, probrewer insights, HBT, Other bloggers, articles / books to ultimately develop your OWN PROCESS FOR YOUR EQUIPMENT /YEAST - (this should be your goal not haze) and while doing it, RDWHAHB... Cheers!

 

[divrack]

This (and the post above it).
I've been laughing at the murk perverts desperately going after preposterous yeast soup, and posting satisfied pictures of unflocculated beer witha shoddy head thinking they have attained Nirvana and are sipping from ambrosial chalices of the finest nectar.
I think people need to think of the style more simply as just a hoppy yet smooth pale beer and go from there.
Focusing on haze is such an arse about tit approach to brewing. It's like trying to be a punk and focusing on plaid being an essential part of punkness, and then going about in a Highlanders kilt thinking you're the most punk dude in the club.

 

[beervoid]

What are opinions here about whirlpool vs dry hop quantities?
Did anyone test high whirlpool 10oz and higher with low dry hop 6oz and lower?
I'm reading mixed results and im having mixed results with playing with the ratios of whirlpool vs dry hop.
Some swear on massive whirlpool additons with smaller dry hops.
Commercial breweries seem to go overboard on the dry hopping part though

 

[couchsending]

What are opinions here about whirlpool vs dry hop quantities?
Did anyone test high whirlpool 10oz and higher with low dry hop 6oz and lower?
I'm reading mixed results and im having mixed results with playing with the ratios of whirlpool vs dry hop.
Some swear on massive whirlpool additons with smaller dry hops.
Commercial breweries seem to go overboard on the dry hopping part though

Save the bigger amounts for Dry Hopping if you can keep O2 pickup to the bare minimum. If you
can't and say you're bottling, I'd do larger WP additions.

Doing huge WP additions will really increase the pH of the wort going into the fermenter which you
don't want.

I've gone to lower and lower WP additions lately and have actually been moving some of those WP
amounts back into the boil. There are certain thiols that will actually increase all the way up to
20 minutes in the boil.

To me the beers made with just WP additions lack dimension and definition.

 

[divrack]

Save the bigger amounts for Dry Hopping if you can keep O2 pickup to the bare minimum. If you
can't and say you're bottling, I'd do larger WP additions.

Doing huge WP additions will really increase the pH of the wort going into the fermenter which you
don't want.

I've gone to lower and lower WP additions lately and have actually been moving some of those WP
amounts back into the boil. There are certain thiols that will actually increase all the way up to
20 minutes in the boil.

To me the beers made with just WP additions lack dimension and definition.

I'm starting to lean that way too. Small first wort addition, small 20 min medium sized 5min and a reasonable whirl.
Massive bio.

 

[couchsending]

I'm starting to lean that way too. Small first wort addition, small 20 min medium sized 5min and a reasonable whirl.
Massive bio.

I have pretty much stopped dry hppping during fermentation. Sometimes I’ll add a small 1-2oz addition at the very tail end of fermentation but most everything now is huge additions after fermentation has finished, yeast has been removed, and beer is around 60*. Aroma is insane and the Hop character is way more defined and bright. I feel like that 60ish temp is key too. Too warm and I think you get the sweaty/rotting character and too cold and you get too much green/chlorophyll character. 60-63 is awesome defined fruit.

 

[divrack]

I have pretty much stopped dry hppping during fermentation. Sometimes I’ll add a small 1-2oz addition at the very tail end of fermentation but most everything now is huge additions after fermentation has finished, yeast has been removed, and beer is around 60*. Aroma is insane and the Hop character is way more defined and bright. I feel like that 60ish temp is key too. Too warm and I think you get the sweaty/rotting character and too cold and you get too much green/chlorophyll character. 60-63 is awesome defined fruit.

That might be true. I've struggled to get a flavour is like from keg hops, perhaps it's been too cold. The point of the bio addition is kind of that it blends and changes the flavour into a more juicy thing i equate with neipa in my mind... I'm in Scotland mind you so I've never tried the so called originators of the style.
I tend to split them up so a third goes in near the start and two thirds near the end, this is as much for ease add prevention of oxygen than any other reason. I figure the offgassing will protect the beer a bit and then i can rack before they go bad.

 

[beervoid]

I have pretty much stopped dry hppping during fermentation. Sometimes I’ll add a small 1-2oz addition at the very tail end of fermentation but most everything now is huge additions after fermentation has finished, yeast has been removed, and beer is around 60*. Aroma is insane and the Hop character is way more defined and bright. I feel like that 60ish temp is key too. Too warm and I think you get the sweaty/rotting character and too cold and you get too much green/chlorophyll character. 60-63 is awesome defined fruit.

Would you conclude that dry hopping early during fermentation would be the same as adding a late whirlpool addition at low temps?

 

[beervoid]

Save the bigger amounts for Dry Hopping if you can keep O2 pickup to the bare minimum. If you
can't and say you're bottling, I'd do larger WP additions.

Doing huge WP additions will really increase the pH of the wort going into the fermenter which you
don't want.

I've gone to lower and lower WP additions lately and have actually been moving some of those WP
amounts back into the boil. There are certain thiols that will actually increase all the way up to
20 minutes in the boil.

To me the beers made with just WP additions lack dimension and definition.

I was curious about your statement about Thiols going up in the boil. Do you have any source for this or this from own experience?
Are you talking about 4MMP and 4MSP?
Which flavors did you experience benefit from boil?

 

[couchsending]

I was curious about your statement about Thiols going up in the boil. Do you have any source for this or this from own experience?
Are you talking about 4MMP and 4MSP?
Which flavors did you experience benefit from boil?

3MH and 3MHA were what I was referring to. 4MMP will decrease. From what I’ve read it depends if they’re bound thiols or not. Also depends if your yeast is capable of transforming (or cleaving I think it’s called) said thiols.

There’s tons of research online. I believe I first read about it in a Mad Fermentationist blog.

I just believe there are positive flavor and compounds you can get from hops even when boiled for X amount of time.

I don’t believe in big whirlpool additions of all sorts of varieties and adding that same exact blend in dry hop. I think if you’re gonna blend 2,3,4 hops pick a variety to use at different times. Some hops work better than others at different temps and in different applications.

 

[wepeeler]

Just did my first NEIPA and it’s not good. I will drink it until I can quickly brew something else to fill that space in kegerator. I will not share this beer ....this is a beer that only a parent can love

It’s to bitter...10Gal batch that I did a .5oz Apollo at 60..3oz of juicy hops at 5min...5oz of juicy at 180F whirlpool. I wanted to skip the 60min hop..I really did...but I just couldn’t brew an IPA without a 60min hop.

If you’re brewing a NEIPA...DO NOT add 60min hops. I can taste the NEIPA wanting to come out but those f’ing 60min IBUs are just killing them. I’d love to know what this beer would have been w/o the 60min IBUs. I read all the posts about FLAMEOUT HOPS ONLY and assumed those idiots had no idea how to make an IPA.....wished I’d listened to those idiots...sigh

Since NEIPA is THE beer to brew these days I thought I’d share and see if others had a 1st attempt fail that they want to share learnings from.

I’m going to do this style again and don’t want to fail twice....

You positive you didn't accidentally add more at 60? Based on your hop schedule, your neipa should not be very bitter at all. I've gone upwards of 0.75 oz of warrior at 60, and it was fine. And I'm not a bitter hop head. I prefer soft bitterness, and a juicy, citrus finish. I usually aim for 20 IBU at 60 and then work from there. I was doing 0.5 oz Warrior at 60 and then all additional hops after flameout, once I cooled to 160, and they actually weren't bitter enough. Beersmith was saying I was around 35-40 IBU with that schedule.

 

[Moose_MI]

You positive you didn't accidentally add more at 60? Based on your hop schedule, your neipa should not be very bitter at all. I've gone upwards of 0.75 oz of warrior at 60, and it was fine. And I'm not a bitter hop head. I prefer soft bitterness, and a juicy, citrus finish. I usually aim for 20 IBU at 60 and then work from there. I was doing 0.5 oz Warrior at 60 and then all additional hops after flameout, once I cooled to 160, and they actually weren't bitter enough. Beersmith was saying I was around 35-40 IBU with that schedule.

Ive brewed this basic recipe a couple times since and have come to the conclusion that the 180F whirlpool likely had more to do with the bitterness the first time. Ive lowered the whirlpool temp to 165 f and the bitterness is much less harsh

 

[beervoid]

Ive brewed this basic recipe a couple times since and have come to the conclusion that the 180F whirlpool likely had more to do with the bitterness the first time. Ive lowered the whirlpool temp to 165 f and the bitterness is much less harsh

Do you check your PH in kettle?
If ita not low enough that might also be a the reason you too much bitterness extraction?

 

[Moose_MI]

Do you check your PH in kettle?
If ita not low enough that might also be a the reason you too much bitterness extraction?

I do not. I adjust mash PH by blending RO, calcium, and Lactic acid. I am no-sparge so my mash ph 5.2-5.4 is what goes into the kettle when i mash out.

 

[beervoid]

I do not. I adjust mash PH by blending RO, calcium, and Lactic acid. I am no-sparge so my mash ph 5.2-5.4 is what goes into the kettle when i mash out.

might want to aim for a bit lower PH in the boil

 

[wepeeler]

Ive brewed this basic recipe a couple times since and have come to the conclusion that the 180F whirlpool likely had more to do with the bitterness the first time. Ive lowered the whirlpool temp to 165 f and the bitterness is much less harsh

Hmm, ok. I guess it's all personal subjective taste to bitterness. I've done 5 oz of 180F, and it still wasn't overly bitter. I always err on the side of less bitter, for my personal taste. Nearly everyone I share my beer with says it could be more bitter. If it's working for you, that's all that matters!

 

[Moose_MI]

Hmm, ok. I guess it's all personal subjective taste to bitterness. I've done 5 oz of 180F, and it still wasn't overly bitter. I always err on the side of less bitter, for my personal taste. Nearly everyone I share my beer with says it could be more bitter. If it's working for you, that's all that matters!

I just went back and checked some notes and i also had a clogged up plate chiller on that first brew. It was to long ago for me to remember specifics but the idea that had hops in there longer and higher than i planned is a very likely possibility

 

[Dgallo]

Don’t use wheat
Don’t use Oats
Don’t do low heat whirlpool additions
Don’t use a lot of CaCl
Don’t dry hop at High Krausen
Don’t use 1318
Don’t use Conan

Basically all the things everyone thinks you’re supposed to do. Best ones in the world don’t do any of those things.

Question the narrative. Don’t just follow the heard.

Umm lol. With all due respect you are incorrect in so much of what you posted here. This is a beer composed of 80-85% of your bugaboos

 

[tomchukj]

Umm lol. With all due respect you are incorrect in so much of what you posted here. This is a beer composed of 80-85% of your bugaboos
View attachment 600903

That looks amazing, mind sharing your grains?

 

[ccous]

It does look great, and is really benefiting from favorable lighting. Natural light gives these beers the best look. Would likely look a lot different with indoor light, I know mine do. My guess is srm is around 5-5.5?

 

[couchsending]

Umm lol. With all due respect you are incorrect in so much of what you posted here. This is a beer composed of 80-85% of your bugaboos
View attachment 600903

Cool looking beer.. who cares what it looks like. I can make a beer that looks exactly like that with none of the ingredients or processes that are “required”.

I retract my 1318 comment, but again neither 1318 nor Conan is required.

 

[jturman35]

Looks like a great beer! I have quit using hops in all of my NEIPA’s and they have turned out great!!!

 

[Dgallo]

Cool looking beer.. who cares what it looks like. I can make a beer that looks exactly like that with none of the ingredients or processes that are “required”.

I retract my 1318 comment, but again neither 1318 nor Conan is required.

I would have to respectfully disagree, looks certainly matter. just like hop flavor and aroma, mouthfeel, carbonation, head retention, ester contribution, Abv, Ibu, srm... literally it all matters. The combination of everything is what makes a beer stand out. That’s why there are breweries who’ve earned notarity for specific styles; I.E. Treehouse, Other half, etc for NE IPA’s and Praire & etc for stouts and porters.

Now that being said, yeah sure there are multiple ways to skin a cat. Everyone has there thing. But there are certainly better ways to skin it. To make a hazy or opaque beer that will not degrade over time you should be using a flaked grain that is high in protein. If you’re local water doesn’t have the correct cacl ratio, then you should adjust it. Depending on your boil hops time additions and amounts, you do want to pay close attention to your hopstand/whirlpool temps because anything over 170 will contribute noticeable bitterness. So being below that, I suggest around 160, will allow for less ibu contribution. Now on to yeast. You can use any yeast that provides your desired attenuation, flocculation, and ester production you’re aiming for. I use Imperial - dry hop.

I mean do you man, do what works for you. But what you claim are “don’t” are what is paying the bills and making the NEIPAS that those breweries are famous for.....

 

[Dgallo]

That looks amazing, mind sharing your grains?

Thanks brother, yeah no worries

80% Golden promise
8% flaked wheat
8 % flaked oats
4 % cara Munich (this is the color and slight malt/sweetnesses)

 

[Dgallo]

It does look great, and is really benefiting from favorable lighting. Natural light gives these beers the best look. Would likely look a lot different with indoor light, I know mine do. My guess is srm is around 5-5.5?

Thanks man. Close, right around 6.2

 

[day_trippr]

[...]View attachment 600903

That looks beautiful! And nothing like the prototypical neipas that brought the style forth...

Cheers!

 

[jturman35]

Here is my second attempt which turned out great! I broke in my Spike conical and fermented under pressure (14psi) which I’m not sure if it had a negative effect on the final product.

I’m pretty sure oxygenated the hell out of this beer due to the line getting clogged by hop debris.

 

[couchsending]

I would have to respectfully disagree, looks certainly matter. just like hop flavor and aroma, mouthfeel, carbonation, head retention, ester contribution, Abv, Ibu, srm... literally it all matters. The combination of everything is what makes a beer stand out. That’s why there are breweries who’ve earned notarity for specific styles; I.E. Treehouse, Other half, etc for NE IPA’s and Praire & etc for stouts and porters.

Now that being said, yeah sure there are multiple ways to skin a cat. Everyone has there thing. But there are certainly better ways to skin it. To make a hazy or opaque beer that will not degrade over time you should be using a flaked grain that is high in protein. If you’re local water doesn’t have the correct cacl ratio, then you should adjust it. Depending on your boil hops time additions and amounts, you do want to pay close attention to your hopstand/whirlpool temps because anything over 170 will contribute noticeable bitterness. So being below that, I suggest around 160, will allow for less ibu contribution. Now on to yeast. You can use any yeast that provides your desired attenuation, flocculation, and ester production you’re aiming for. I use Imperial - dry hop.

I mean do you man, do what works for you. But what you claim are “don’t” are what is paying the bills and making the NEIPAS that those breweries are famous for.....

Sure looks are important, that wasn’t the point. This is the issue with this style, it’s an Instagram perpetuated style. Just cause it’s hazy and looks like Juice doesn’t mean it’s good. More often than not it’ll actually mean it’s bad. Chalky, astringent, and smells like rotting fruit.

I will say again

Treehouse, Monkish, Hill Farmstead

No flaked adjuncts in most of their beers. They’re the tip of the iceberg in my opinion.

Yes if you use a low protein base malt like Golden Promise or MO you will need to use flaked adjuncts as the starting protein levels of your base malt are already low. However these high protein adjuncts not only have a flavor impact they also have an affect on oxidation and beer stability.

Judging by the beers from HF and TH I’ve had analyzed their Ca additions are not CaCl derived. Cl levels are higher yes but not by using CaCl.

You need to do more research on hop utilization. There are a few more factors that affect bitterness other than time and temp. These other factors have affects on wort proteins as well as fermentation health.

Do you know how hard it is for a professional brewery to drop their wort from 212 to 160 and their hop utilization is way higher than on a homebrew scale. There are benefits to boiling certain hops for certain lengths of time. Some compounds benefit from it. Even juicy/fruity ones believe it or not.

You can make a better permanently hazy beer with aromatics that explode out of the glass, is full and soft, yet disappears mid pallet by not using the cheats that homebrewers created for this style. They couldn’t find any info on how to make these beers cause the originators were tight lipped about their process and ingredients.

Yes there is more than one way to skin a cat. Just depends on the cat you’re trying to skin. I’m trying to make beers similar to the best ones I’ve had all across the US. From my research the best ones don’t do many of the things most people think they do.

 

[ttuato]

What are opinions here about whirlpool vs dry hop quantities?
Did anyone test high whirlpool 10oz and higher with low dry hop 6oz and lower?
I'm reading mixed results and im having mixed results with playing with the ratios of whirlpool vs dry hop.
Some swear on massive whirlpool additons with smaller dry hops.
Commercial breweries seem to go overboard on the dry hopping part though

After reading multiple research studies on hops - whirlpool, dry hop, etc by the "big boys": Takoi, Kishimoto, Clark, Shellhammer, etc.

I have gleamed that the "optimal" ratios are:

• 1oz/gal for whirlpool. This maximizes wort concentrations of the various terpenes, thiols, etc. 170 for 30mins is the major trend --- not necessarily supported by science though
• 1.5oz - 2oz/gal TOTAL dry hop. Studies have shown that 12g/L (1.75oz/gal) has maximum "Citrus" in sensory tests. Beyond that up to 16g/L (2oz/gal) - test showed no increase in citrus but additional increase in the green/vegetal/piney extraction.

Also dryhop length / temperature is of more importance according to studies than is generally talked about on HBT. The much lauded "keg hopping" (one that I admittedly supported) has been shown from a scientific & sensory testing perspective to result in increased green/vegetal/piney extraction as a result of extended contact length AND temperature. Colder temp generally results in the less desirable hop flavors for NEIPAs. 24hours at 72F is all that is needed to extract all of the "juicy" flavor contributors.

I will also add that according to the research I have read (c. Daniel Clark) that "biotransformation" results moreso from the hop oil concentrations that occur from whirlpooling rather than dryhopping. Add that info with the spund/DO theory and my process is now:

• 1oz/gal whirlpool - high geraniol hops (linalool is everywhere)
• 1.75oz/gal dryhop - high 4MMP & citronellol hops in single dryhop with ~4-6 points before FG. Seal fermentor and spund. Raise temp to 72.
• 24-36hours after dry hop transfer from fermentor to serving keg, continue spund and allow to reach FG and diacetyl rest

Research has also proven that dry hopping increase diacetyl so don't skip this part of the ferm schedule. I can still go grain to glass in 9-10 using my process. I allow at least one week conditioning though so ~ three week grain to drinking.

 

[ttuato]

Probably not the right thread to post but I figured it would get the most reach here - I recommend you subscribe to Stan Hieronymous' Hops Queries. In this months Hops Queries newsletter from Stan Hieronymus he shared a link to a podcast discussing research that finally solved the question of what is the haze in NEIPA? (Spoiler alert it isn't yeast)

http://masterbrewerspodcast.com/104-the-hidden-secrets-of-new-england-ipa